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Old 01-04-2013, 04:24 PM   #151
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My point wasn't about whether or not those draft picks panned out and the information about who they were isn't exactly a secret. The point was that during the entire Shanahan era, we didn't select a single player within the first ten of the draft in any year. Guess I could have made my point just as well by noting 6 wins is the fewest we had in any Shanahan year and it resulted in a #10 overall pick, but Shanahan traded down to #19. We were never, ever close to #2 with Shanahan at the helm, so I don't see how anyone can advance a valid argument that 4-12 and #2 overall wasn't the nadir of this franchise since the 60's/early 70's.

Edited to add: you have to go all the way back to '91 (Mike Croel, #4 overall) to find another Broncos top-ten draft pick besides Von Miller. Broncos fans are not used to the team sucking horribly enough to be drafting in the top ten.
Do you really beleive he would have not screwed up those picks if he had?

If you go back and look at players taken in the top ten they were usually DL, QB, or OL. With an occasional RB/WR

Code:
03

2003 - ROUND 1
SEL #	TEAM	PLAYER	POSITION	SCHOOL
1	Cincinnati Bengals	Carson Palmer	QB	USC
2	Detroit Lions	Charles Rogers	WR	Michigan State
3	Houston Texans	Andre Johnson	WR	Miami (Fla.)
4	New York Jets	Dewayne Robertson	DT	Kentucky
5	Dallas Cowboys	Terence Newman	CB	Kansas State
6	New Orleans Saints	Johnathan Sullivan	DT	Georgia
7	Jacksonville Jaguars	Byron Leftwich	QB	Marshall
8	Carolina Panthers	Jordan Gross	T	Utah
9	Minnesota Vikings	Kevin Williams	DE	Oklahoma State
10	Baltimore Ravens	Terrell Suggs	OLB	Arizona State
11	Seattle Seahawks	Marcus Trufant	CB	Washington State
12	St. Louis Rams	Jimmy Kennedy	DT	Penn State
13	New England Patriots	Ty Warren	DE	Texas A&M
14	Chicago Bears	Michael Haynes	DE	Penn State
15	Philadelphia Eagles	Jerome McDougle	DE	Miami (Fla.)
16	Pittsburgh Steelers	Troy Polamalu	DB	USC
17	Arizona Cardinals	Bryant Johnson	WR	Penn State
18	Arizona Cardinals	Calvin Pace	DE	Wake Forest
19	Baltimore Ravens	Kyle Boller	QB	California
20	Denver Broncos	George Foster	
04

1	San Diego Chargers	Eli Manning	QB	Mississippi
2	Oakland Raiders	Robert Gallery	T	Iowa
3	Arizona Cardinals	Larry Fitzgerald	WR	Pittsburgh
4	New York Giants	Philip Rivers	QB	North Carolina State
5	Washington Redskins	Sean Taylor	FS	Miami (Fla.)
6	Cleveland Browns	Kellen Winslow	TE	Miami (Fla.)
7	Detroit Lions	Roy Williams	WR	Texas
8	Atlanta Falcons	DeAngelo Hall	CB	Virginia Tech
9	Jacksonville Jaguars	Reggie Williams	WR	Washington
10	Houston Texans	Dunta Robinson	CB	South Carolina

More later
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:35 PM   #152
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It seems pretty clear-cut that without "Spygate 2" he would have at least finished the 2010 season as HC. Had the win/loss record still remained 4-12 (most likely scenario), then I think he still would have been replaced for 2011. Coaches whose teams go 4-12 don't stick around in today's win-now-or-else NFL.
I think we would have finished 3-13 with McD.
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:36 PM   #153
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But as for cutlet well it is up for debate why he wanted out.
In hindsight, there were no secret agendas, we saw what happened. Cutler's name was mentioned a couple times, likely just idle chatter, but when Cutler asked him about it, Josh lied to his face. Petulant child #1: "He lied! He lied!" Petulant child #2 (fresh off his Matt Cassell miracle) "The player doesn't make me, I make the player."



So Elway's plan was "Champ is the Rock, and upon this Rock I shall build my team?" Kinda funny to focus on a 12th year cornerback when facing the mother of all rebuilds ... maybe Clady or Woodyard, or how 'bout John's first draft pick, highest pick in franchise history, Von Miller?

But you can't question Elway at this point, you simply cannot. Has he made even one wrong move? No, he hasn't ... he's running the table three racks in, while his doubters watch dumbfounded, holding their sticks in their hands.
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:46 PM   #154
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Do you really beleive he would have not screwed up those picks if he had?

If you go back and look at players taken in the top ten they were usually DL, QB, or OL. With an occasional RB/WR



More later
Uh, no... I think if Mike Shanahan's Broncos teams had sucked thoroughly enough for us to have top-ten draft picks, he would not have been our HC for 14 years; he would have been fired. He received heavy criticism for the 6-10 (1999) season... and rightly so because we were the defending SB champions. Key injuries (a lot of them) were a factor, but when expectations are high, criticism follows when those expectations are not met.

But high expectations from the fan base is exactly the point I was trying to make... we aren't used to our team sucking and I fully believe that if "Spygate 2" hadn't taken McDaniels down, the 4-12 record...and being the second-worst team in the league... would have. I don't believe for a second that Tebow would have factored into the equation; being one of the league's 2 worst teams wouldn't have been considered ok.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:15 PM   #155
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I bet if you ask "the players" if they liked having McD around, that way more than half would say no. He divided the lockerroom and his player to coach connections were abrasive. It was embarrassing enough that on thanksgiving he looked like a complete fool on TV, but the whole spy gate thing was a dark moment. I don't care if McD lovers say he was cleared. Really? He had no clue? Come on. Even of he didnt look at it the damage was done by even having film.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:23 PM   #156
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I bet if you ask "the players" if they liked having McD around, that way more than half would say no. He divided the lockerroom and his player to coach connections were abrasive. It was embarrassing enough that on thanksgiving he looked like a complete fool on TV, but the whole spy gate thing was a dark moment. I don't care if McD lovers say he was cleared. Really? He had no clue? Come on. Even of he didnt look at it the damage was done by even having film.
Steve Scarnecchia clearly just acted all alone. Who in their right mind believes that. McD hire the cheater in the first place.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:24 PM   #157
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I'm gonna say it: It appears John is an even better GM than he was a QB. I'm sometimes prone to hyperbole, but still: any way you cut it, this is an historic rebuild and turnaround

2010: Franchise record 12 losses, team branded as cheaters, fan support at all-time low
2011: John arrives, and with him a surprise division title and playoff victory
2012: John year two, #4 NFL offense, #2 NFL defense, home-field throughout

Maybe there's been other turnarounds like this, but I can't think of any ...
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:28 PM   #158
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I bet if you ask "the players" if they liked having McD around, that way more than half would say no. He divided the lockerroom and his player to coach connections were abrasive. It was embarrassing enough that on thanksgiving he looked like a complete fool on TV, but the whole spy gate thing was a dark moment. I don't care if McD lovers say he was cleared. Really? He had no clue? Come on. Even of he didnt look at it the damage was done by even having film.
That isn't true. TSIGUY had tweets from many players. Besides Royal, we are still waiting for those Twitter links. You just wait and see. They are there.

(before your time but if you want to catch up on the McDaniels losing times, go read some from Nov. 2010.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:59 PM   #159
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:29 PM   #160
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In hindsight, there were no secret agendas, we saw what happened. Cutler's name was mentioned a couple times, likely just idle chatter, but when Cutler asked him about it, Josh lied to his face. Petulant child #1: "He lied! He lied!" Petulant child #2 (fresh off his Matt Cassell miracle) "The player doesn't make me, I make the player."



So Elway's plan was "Champ is the Rock, and upon this Rock I shall build my team?" Kinda funny to focus on a 12th year cornerback when facing the mother of all rebuilds ... maybe Clady or Woodyard, or how 'bout John's first draft pick, highest pick in franchise history, Von Miller?

But you can't question Elway at this point, you simply cannot. Has he made even one wrong move? No, he hasn't ... he's running the table three racks in, while his doubters watch dumbfounded, holding their sticks in their hands.
I truly beleive that josh had every intention of trying to coach him up, but after watching film on him and then actually talking to him face to face. I suspect that was when he started to think trade or wonder if he would be nothing more than the Jeff George he turned out to be.

As for John I've always been a fan and wondered if he could pull an Ozzie Newsome go from HOF player to exec. Pretty sure that question has been answered.

So far so good on player picks. A few duds but we all know that the draft is a crap shoot. But for the most part he is loving by the credo that you build a team via the draft.

My hat is off to him.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:33 PM   #161
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Uh, no... I think if Mike Shanahan's Broncos teams had sucked thoroughly enough for us to have top-ten draft picks, he would not have been our HC for 14 years; he would have been fired. He received heavy criticism for the 6-10 (1999) season... and rightly so because we were the defending SB champions. Key injuries (a lot of them) were a factor, but when expectations are high, criticism follows when those expectations are not met.

But high expectations from the fan base is exactly the point I was trying to make... we aren't used to our team sucking and I fully believe that if "Spygate 2" hadn't taken McDaniels down, the 4-12 record...and being the second-worst team in the league... would have. I don't believe for a second that Tebow would have factored into the equation; being one of the league's 2 worst teams wouldn't have been considered ok.

I'm not so sure Pat seemed to buy into the rebuild and the scheme he was attempting to start up in DEN, IMO he wanted NE west, because of that he would have waited another year.

But we wound up with the best possible scenario now with John and Manning. I'll not complain about that a bit.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:22 PM   #162
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I'm not so sure Pat seemed to buy into the rebuild and the scheme he was attempting to start up in DEN, IMO he wanted NE west, because of that he would have waited another year.

But we wound up with the best possible scenario now with John and Manning. I'll not complain about that a bit.
Pat Bowlen's first priority (like most NFL team owners) is winning games. Not winning games (going 4-12 and being one of the 2 worst teams in the league) very quickly can translate into empty seats in the stadium and even blackouts. Had McDaniels been retained for another year, we most likely would have lost the only remaining true superstar that was on our roster (Champ) as McDaniels showed little inclination to work with Champ on a contract extension.

The point is moot, however... McDaniels did bring in the guy who filmed the 9ers and he did allow the Spygate 2 scandal to happen. And he was rightly fired for it. Firing McDaniels and turning the reins over to Elway turned out to be the correct course for the Broncos to take (a fast track back to playoff contention).
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:32 PM   #163
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Found this on Reddit:

"Going back to where we were. We were probably at the lowest point that the franchise had been...since I had been around the franchise, and really, since Pat owned the franchise, so we were at the lowest point we'd ever been. So we had to get some loyalty back, not only with our players, but also with our fans. And to me, Champ Bailey was that base. He was going to be the guy we were going to build around. He had been here several years, was a great, great player. We still thought he could play. All those things come into play, so that's why it was important for us to start that build with a guy like Champ Bailey who had had that experience here, and the fan base knew, and getting that connection back with the fan base that this organization has had such a close connection with for so long...and we really, at that point in time, really felt like we lost. So that was a move, not only was he a great player, but also our fans identified with him as an important cog in this organization and why it was important for us to get him re-signed"

Link to the article: http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...ing-new-tricks

And link to the actual interview with Sandy:http://www.1043thefan.com/podcasts/E....aspx?PID=2095

It's labeled as Clough Talk Hour 2 1/2/13



Some pretty interesting stuff, and a nice interview. So glad the Duke has stepped in and made so many positive strides. I ****ing love this team.

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I really like that John decided to build his team around a HOF player like Champ and not a long snapper.

So grateful to have the team we have today.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:40 PM   #164
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Pat Bowlen's first priority (like most NFL team owners) is winning games. Not winning games (going 4-12 and being one of the 2 worst teams in the league) very quickly can translate into empty seats in the stadium and even blackouts. Had McDaniels been retained for another year, we most likely would have lost the only remaining true superstar that was on our roster (Champ) as McDaniels showed little inclination to work with Champ on a contract extension.

The point is moot, however... McDaniels did bring in the guy who filmed the 9ers and he did allow the Spygate 2 scandal to happen. And he was rightly fired for it. Firing McDaniels and turning the reins over to Elway turned out to be the correct course for the Broncos to take (a fast track back to playoff contention).
Yep Bill Belichick's Master plan backfire on his ass.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:41 PM   #165
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I truly beleive that josh had every intention of trying to coach him up, but after watching film on him and then actually talking to him face to face. I suspect that was when he started to think trade or wonder if he would be nothing more than the Jeff George he turned out to be.

As for John I've always been a fan and wondered if he could pull an Ozzie Newsome go from HOF player to exec. Pretty sure that question has been answered.

So far so good on player picks. A few duds but we all know that the draft is a crap shoot. But for the most part he is loving by the credo that you build a team via the draft.

My hat is off to him.
u watch josh now in new enland he and brady feed off each other. lots of emotion, passion, and energy with the will to kik ass and win. cutler is the opposite. cutler is a heck of a talent, but a ****ing dud
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:42 PM   #166
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to add its the same qualities u see in Tebow
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:38 PM   #167
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I truly beleive that josh had every intention of trying to coach him up, but after watching film on him and then actually talking to him face to face. I suspect that was when he started to think trade or wonder if he would be nothing more than the Jeff George he turned out to be.

As for John I've always been a fan and wondered if he could pull an Ozzie Newsome go from HOF player to exec. Pretty sure that question has been answered.

So far so good on player picks. A few duds but we all know that the draft is a crap shoot. But for the most part he is loving by the credo that you build a team via the draft.

My hat is off to him.
I have been in the car alot on Thursday and AM670 (could have been AM1000) "The Score" had Mike Klis on and they talked about McCoy for a while and then the talk shifted to to mCd trying to run Cutler out of Denver. Not sure if I remember hearing that it went down the way Klis said it did but mCd was so in love with the trade for Cassell that he had a 3 way trade going with Tampa Bay shipping Cutler out to FL.

Sounds like mCd wanted to bring in his guy that he knows what he is going to get out of and then dump Cuter for some picks (that he ended up wasting later), mCd got what he wanted and ended up being forced to reach on a guy like Tebow, he moves back up to draft Timmy then would not start him at all in his last few weeks with Denver.

mCd was totally unprepared for the NFL level and the win now mentality. So glad we have a HC and OC who know what their players do well and get them in positions to succeed, where as mCd threw the ball on a LT screen to a Left Tackle. inside the redzone.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:39 PM   #168
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This thread needs some Drek
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:41 PM   #169
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This thread needs some Drek
Isnt he the McDaniels lover? You sure you want to go there?
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:47 PM   #170
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This thread needs some Drek
Every thread needs more Drek.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:55 PM   #171
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I bet if you ask "the players" if they liked having McD around, that way more than half would say no. He divided the lockerroom and his player to coach connections were abrasive. It was embarrassing enough that on thanksgiving he looked like a complete fool on TV, but the whole spy gate thing was a dark moment. I don't care if McD lovers say he was cleared. Really? He had no clue? Come on. Even of he didnt look at it the damage was done by even having film.
Who doesn't want more of this in there face?



You think GM's want that on their sidelines?

or how about this.



and this

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Old 01-04-2013, 09:56 PM   #172
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This thread needs some Drek
I'm sure he will twll Elway to not breed like he did us for bashing McD.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:01 PM   #173
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BTW, Req why don't you grow a pair instead of being a b!tch and neg repping me. You feel you been wronged sack up and talk $h!t about me here in front of everybody and make your $h!tty point if you got one. BTW, I ain't no Jesus freak you weak a$$ wussy.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:14 PM   #174
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BTW, Req why don't you grow a pair instead of being a b!tch and neg repping me. You feel you been wronged sack up and talk $h!t about me here in front of everybody and make your $h!tty point if you got one. BTW, I ain't no Jesus freak you weak a$$ wussy.
love this thread still going stroooooong
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:24 AM   #175
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BTW, Req why don't you grow a pair instead of being a b!tch and neg repping me. You feel you been wronged sack up and talk $h!t about me here in front of everybody and make your $h!tty point if you got one. BTW, I ain't no Jesus freak you weak a$$ wussy.
He is a a punk that only takes shots behind someone back. Used to do that to me until I put him on IGGY. I guess he never got over me banning him one the last board he slithered on to. When he was banned on what is now broncos country.

Now that unless someone quotes the public shots at me (still behind my back) I never see them nor can he PM me to do it either.

He has been this way since the old mania days when he was a punk kid ten years and no more maturity than back then.

If you think telling to grow a pair will work, you are sadly mistaken.
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