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Old 01-02-2013, 11:20 AM   #126
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Don't use cameras? That London niner game is a perfect example of McD failing in a game. Singletary always scripted his first 15 plays. If you watch that game broncos had niners number on defense during the 1st half. Singletary made 2nd half adjustments at halftime, while McD picked his nose. McD got out coached once he knew what plays weren't coming. Filming another team is bad, Losing a game that you had illegal film on is even worse.

I get that he wasn't prepared to be a personnel guy, but I saw him get out coached way more times than not in games.

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Old 01-02-2013, 11:22 AM   #127
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The McDaniels failure was largely the fault of Pat/Ellis, for not upholding his end of the promises he made after firing Shanahan. It was one thing after another with Pat/Ellis. Promising new structural changes after Shanny, that never happened and made it worse when they cleaned out the front office. Leaving McD to scramble to prepare for his first draft.

The whole Cutler fiasco was Pat's doing after Shanahan got canned, Pat wasn't going to take any orders from Cutler, who told Pat to hang on to Bates. That relationship was far more toxic before McDaniels showed up.

Point is, Pat/Ellis did a horrible job managing the franchise after the guy that's managed it for a decade (Shanny) got canned.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:27 AM   #128
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Don't use cameras? That London niner game is a perfect example of McD failing in a game. Singletary always scripted his first 15 plays. If you watch that game broncos had niners number on defense during the 1st half. Singletary made 2nd half adjustments at halftime, while McD picked his nose. McD got out coached once he knew what plays weren't coming. Filming another team is bad, Losing a game that you had illegal film on is even worse.
McD didn't want to use the tape. NFL investigation cleared him.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/fo...icle-1.454047]
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:30 AM   #129
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McD didn't want to use the tape. NFL investigation cleared him.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/fo...icle-1.454047]
Telling us fans that filming "was the norm" in his experiences tells me his hands were not clean
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:34 AM   #130
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Don't use cameras? That London niner game is a perfect example of McD failing in a game. Singletary always scripted his first 15 plays. If you watch that game broncos had niners number on defense during the 1st half. Singletary made 2nd half adjustments at halftime, while McD picked his nose. McD got out coached once he knew what plays weren't coming. Filming another team is bad, Losing a game that you had illegal film on is even worse.

I get that he wasn't prepared to be a personnel guy, but I saw him get out coached way more times than not in games.
Niners ran the same 15 plays every game let alone in the 1st half with Singletary at the helm. 49ers are almost the second team I know about the most due to close friends being a fan of them.

It's sad that we lost to the Niners but we lost that day because we just physically got pushed and defense got tired.

As someone pointed out, he was already cleared for not using the tape. Saying his hands were dirty is speculation...
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:35 AM   #131
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Telling us fans that filming "was the norm" in his experiences tells me his hands were not clean
He also said it was coached.

Someone else on the team would have came out and said something if he really had tape.

Honestly, it would be pointless to use tape against the Niners that season. They had the most uncreative/worse offenses in the NFL history.

Their playbook was probably around 10 plays.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:55 AM   #132
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You can sugar coat McDaniels however you want to. Fact is after the 6-0 start he went 5-17. Worst record in football during that 22 game stretch. He failed to make the adjustments needed to win games. Even cheating with video cameras couldnt help him win. He got progressively worse as his short career went on.
Our current HC started out 1-4 here, then fell to 2-5. We were talking Andrew Luck as a real serious possibility mid-season last year, FYI. See what cherry picking data points does for you?

Failure to learn from history dooms you to repeat it. You are failing to learn why McDaniels failed. It wasn't player personnel where he wasn't amazing but he also wasn't bad by any stretch. He worked with a limited budget and didn't get a bust in the bunch from his first rounders, the picks you need to have work out. He obviously hired good front office people, evidenced by Matt Russell being promoted by the new regime and being asked to interview for GM jobs. He obviously hired good coaches, as about half of our coaching staff are McDaniels hold overs.

So what was the failure? He hired the right people, he wasn't dramatically awful at player acquisition. Hell, he made Kyle Orton look like a solid QB for a while there and even had Dumervil putting up a career year on defense with a greatly improved D in 2009.

McDaniels' time here got progressively worse because he was unable to delegate responsibility and unable to present consistency of leadership. The former led to his own burn out, the loss of quality coaches (Nolan) and the marginalizing of others. The later led to him losing the locker room. McDaniels lacked the experience and/or personality to be "the guy" for an NFL team.

Maybe that could have been rectified by keeping a strong GM over him instead of saving a few sheckles and giving him full autonomy, maybe it couldn't and he was going to blow up regardless. But being unable to look back and see not just that he was a failure but WHY he failed is weak and does nothing to stimulate growth.

Its clear that Bowlen has learned from those two years, and learned quite well. He's looser with the money now, he's taken Joe Ellis out of real football decisions, he brought in and empowered Elway, and he demanded an experienced HC who is comfortable letting his coordinators coordinate. The end results have been very enjoyable to date, but are only happening because Bowlen didn't do what 80% of this site does when talking McDaniels - discount everything and want it all burned to the ground. Instead a much more objective eye was taken across the board and what worked was left in place while what didn't was removed.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:40 PM   #133
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he's taken Joe Ellis out of real football decisions, he brought in and empowered Elway, and he demanded an experienced HC who is comfortable letting his coordinators coordinate. The end results have been very enjoyable to date, but are only happening because Bowlen didn't do what 80% of this site does when talking McDaniels - discount everything and want it all burned to the ground. Instead a much more objective eye was taken across the board and what worked was left in place while what didn't was removed.
I can't overstate how much this organization has improved once Xanders was out of a job and Ellis had no input on football decisions. Their bean counting ways and number crunching was hindering the football operations department, greatly.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:17 PM   #134
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It's amazing when people put so much emphasis on that 1-4 start, whether it be teboners or McD lovers.

You guys do realize that was a lockout offseason WITH new coaches/gameplans. To think a team who transitioned a rebuild during a lockout offseason would start out slow is not out of the ordinary.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:51 PM   #135
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It's amazing when people put so much emphasis on that 1-4 start, whether it be teboners or McD lovers.

You guys do realize that was a lockout offseason WITH new coaches/gameplans. To think a team who transitioned a rebuild during a lockout offseason would start out slow is not out of the ordinary.
Almost our entire offensive coaching staff was the same. For the first five games we tried to run the same offense McCoy and Orton had been in for two whole years before then (along with four of our five starting OLs, all our starting WRs and TEs, and almost all our backups). The defense from the year before was epic levels of bad, any improvement would have been massive, plus they had Doom back for a few of those games, who was gone all the previous year. The STs were already in place and last I looked it didn't take a ton of coaching to tell a solid kicker and punter to do their jobs.

Yet we dookied all over the field for a little over a month until they put Teebs in and the defense gelled around a more conservative, run run run punt offense.

Hell of an argument you got there.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:04 PM   #136
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1. His 4 first round picks have paid off as well or better than anyone else in the league over that stretch. Thomas is a future star, Ayers has been a solid starter/very good rotational DE who has continued to improve. Moreno was the starter for two years, was never healthy last year long enough to even compete for the job, and now looks even better so far this season. Tebow took a 1-5 team to a division title and a MASSIVE win against the Steelers, that alone was worth the pick.

2. His second round selections were weak, but also 3 of the 4 came in his first year on a short prep schedule. McBath couldn't stay healthy after his rookie year, but that happens to anyone's draft selections. Smith and Quinn were busts (though Smith did have two solid years as a backup CB for Detroit). Beadles however has been a starter since day one and has done quite well for us, so at least one of those four was a clear hit.

Total success rate in the first two rounds = 5/8, not bad by NFL standards.

After that you list a bunch of late round guys which no one expects much from (Thompson's career with the Broncos is FAR better than you'd normally get form a 7th rounder for example).

As for free agents, you're griping about a bunch of low cost filler additions that ever team makes. The current regime gave Joe Mays more guaranteed money for this season than all of those players ever got from the Broncos excluding Orton, but that big payday for him was due to Elway's decision, not McDaniels.

His time here was the purge this club needed post-Shanahan (who I still argue is a first ballot HoF coach). Acting like he failed at everything in general is narrow minded, half assed bull**** that is beneath a board where people should be able to parse data into finer groups than "succeed" and "fail".
When did I say he failed at everything? And who the hell is talking about Shanahan?

You claimed McDaniels problem wasn't personnel acquisition when his draft record is pathetic considering the amount of first day picks he had at his disposal.

Spin it any way you want, McDaniels had 8 first/second rounds picks of which only DT and Zane Beadles are starters.

The rest like Tebow, Quinn, McBath, A Smith are busts with Ayers a backup and Moreno as just another RB.

If you think that's not a problem then you need to step back into reality.

And that's not even mentioning targetting Brady Quinn for Peyton Hillis, bringing in Chris Simms and of course Kyle Orton.

For a guy that's supposed to be an offensive guru his chosen QBs were bottom of the barrel rancid.

But no, his personnel decisions weren't the problem?

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Old 01-02-2013, 03:16 PM   #137
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Our current HC started out 1-4 here, then fell to 2-5. We were talking Andrew Luck as a real serious possibility mid-season last year, FYI. See what cherry picking data points does for you?

Failure to learn from history dooms you to repeat it. You are failing to learn why McDaniels failed. It wasn't player personnel where he wasn't amazing but he also wasn't bad by any stretch. He worked with a limited budget and didn't get a bust in the bunch from his first rounders, the picks you need to have work out. He obviously hired good front office people, evidenced by Matt Russell being promoted by the new regime and being asked to interview for GM jobs. He obviously hired good coaches, as about half of our coaching staff are McDaniels hold overs.

So what was the failure? He hired the right people, he wasn't dramatically awful at player acquisition. Hell, he made Kyle Orton look like a solid QB for a while there and even had Dumervil putting up a career year on defense with a greatly improved D in 2009.

McDaniels' time here got progressively worse because he was unable to delegate responsibility and unable to present consistency of leadership. The former led to his own burn out, the loss of quality coaches (Nolan) and the marginalizing of others. The later led to him losing the locker room. McDaniels lacked the experience and/or personality to be "the guy" for an NFL team.

Maybe that could have been rectified by keeping a strong GM over him instead of saving a few sheckles and giving him full autonomy, maybe it couldn't and he was going to blow up regardless. But being unable to look back and see not just that he was a failure but WHY he failed is weak and does nothing to stimulate growth.

Its clear that Bowlen has learned from those two years, and learned quite well. He's looser with the money now, he's taken Joe Ellis out of real football decisions, he brought in and empowered Elway, and he demanded an experienced HC who is comfortable letting his coordinators coordinate. The end results have been very enjoyable to date, but are only happening because Bowlen didn't do what 80% of this site does when talking McDaniels - discount everything and want it all burned to the ground. Instead a much more objective eye was taken across the board and what worked was left in place while what didn't was removed.


Great post do not let anyone tell you otherwise.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:56 PM   #138
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As for free agents, you're griping about a bunch of low cost filler additions that ever team makes. The current regime gave Joe Mays more guaranteed money for this season than all of those players ever got from the Broncos excluding Orton, but that big payday for him was due to Elway's decision, not McDaniels.
Those are just a few examples.

Care to explain away Lonnie Paxton (who got more money than Leach for essentially doing the same job), Brandon Gorin, Russ Hochstein, LaMont Jordan, LeKevin Smith, Renaldo Hill, Andre Goodman, Jamal Williams, Nate Jones, and other scrubs who he promptly started at OL?

But all is forgiven because he brought in Dawkins, and Buckhalter right?

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Old 01-02-2013, 04:00 PM   #139
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Oh yeah, and guess who gave Tebow a season that made him look like he could play football... took Manning to his 2nd best season in his CAREER with an offense that ranked 4th in yardage and 2nd in scoring...

Mike McCoy.

Whose the hottest coordinator on the BLOCK in the NFL right now that's up for a HC gig?

Mike McCoy

Oh wait, who hired Mike McCoy as an OC?

That's right. Yours truly, Josh McDaniels.

Go look at the Broncos coaching staff and you'd be surprised how many coaches are still here from his tenure.
Is brother Ben still there?

How about can't get 11 men on the field Martindale?

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Old 01-02-2013, 04:12 PM   #140
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Is brother Ben still there?

How about can't get 11 men on the field Martindale?

Let's not forget that McCoy was a member of John Fox's staff for 6 long prior to McD. Two years with George Seifert before Fox got there.
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:21 PM   #141
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Almost our entire offensive coaching staff was the same. For the first five games we tried to run the same offense McCoy and Orton had been in for two whole years before then (along with four of our five starting OLs, all our starting WRs and TEs, and almost all our backups).
You want to explain why that was though?

Oh yeah, because the chosen one drafted by McDaniels couldn't beat out Brady freakin' Quinn in training camp even though the new staff wanted him to and barely understood how to run a conventional offense.

So yeah, Fox and co. were forced to go with plan B, another crappy QB brought in by McDouche.
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:28 PM   #142
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Let's not forget that McCoy was a member of John Fox's staff for 6 long prior to McD. Two years with George Seifert before Fox got there.
I think the bigger question would be even if McD wanted to be the head coach who the hell would work under him as his staff knowing how he micro manages everything and has previously pissed off players and staff alike?

Wasn't it Dan Pees who worked alongside McDaniels in NE for years and when Josh wanted to hire him here as DC, Pees pretty much told him to piss off by taking the LBers position coach job in Baltimore instead?

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Old 01-02-2013, 04:39 PM   #143
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Those are just a few examples.

Care to explain away Lonnie Paxton (who got more money than Leach for essentially doing the same job), Brandon Gorin, Russ Hochstein, LaMont Jordan, LeKevin Smith, Renaldo Hill, Andre Goodman, Jamal Williams, Nate Jones, and other scrubs who he promptly started at OL?

But all is forgiven because he brought in Dawkins, and Buckhalter right?

Andre Goodman was just here last year when we beat the Steelers.

There is no HC/GM that hits 100% of his signings. That's a fact.

But Kevin Vickerson, Bannan, and Tony Carter are 3 FA's that he signed that eclipse anything Shanahan has ever signed in his whole CAREER and McDaniels found these players within 1.5 years. (Last 2 were released by the Broncos but acquired against by the current FO).

Also, McDaniels didn't put the Broncos in a financial **** hole even though those players didn't pan out.
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:44 PM   #144
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Andre Goodman was just here last year when we beat the Steelers.

There is no HC/GM that hits 100% of his signings. That's a fact.

But Kevin Vickerson, Bannan, and Tony Carter are 3 FA's that he signed that eclipse anything Shanahan has ever signed in his whole CAREER and McDaniels found these players within 1.5 years. (Last 2 were released by the Broncos but acquired against by the current FO).

Also, McDaniels didn't put the Broncos in a financial **** hole even though those players didn't pan out.
And yet, McDaniels cut Tony Carter as well. It was this current FO that brought him back. See how stupid that makes him look now?

In the interest of sanity I'm going to pretty much end this thread right here:

There are only two possible reasons why McDaniels has withdrawn his name from a HC job:

1. He genuinely doesn't want to be a HC this offseason.

2. Or, like every HC candidate this offseason he shortlisted a number of assistants/staff/OCs/DCs etc and was told to politely piss off by them. Every single prospective HC gets asked who his shortlist of candidates are for his potential staff and those guys are right now getting an understanding of whether those assistants would be available/ready to work with them in a new team (unofficially).

Given how McDaniels pissed off a lot of people my money is on number 2.

Or as Todd Haley said: "There's a lot of **** being talked about you!"

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Old 01-02-2013, 04:54 PM   #145
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And yet, McDaniels cut Tony Carter as well. It was this current FO that brought him back. See how stupid that makes him look now?

In the interest of sanity I'm going to pretty much end this thread right here:

There are only two possible reasons why McDaniels has withdrawn his name from a HC job:

1. He genuinely doesn't want to be a HC this offseason.

2. Or, like every HC candidate this offseason he shortlisted a number of assistants/staff/OCs/DCs etc and was told to politely piss off by them. Every single prospective HC gets asked who his shortlist of candidates are for his potential staff and those guys are right now getting an understanding of whether those assistants would be available/ready to work with them in a new team (unofficially).

Given how McDaniels pissed off a lot of people my money is on number 2.

Or as Todd Haley said: "There's a lot of **** being talked about you!"
No, he just pissed off a lot of omaners and fans in Denver.

But, I think it's both 1 and 2... doesn't want to be HC, doesn't have enough assistants he can hire... along with the fact that there might not be a team that's open he's interested in.

Come on son, you're really using Todd Haley as a reference to prove a point?

TODD HALEY?
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:58 PM   #146
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No, he just pissed off a lot of omaners and fans in Denver.

But, I think it's both 1 and 2... doesn't want to be HC, doesn't have enough assistants he can hire... along with the fact that there might not be a team that's open he's interested in.

Come on son, you're really using Todd Haley as a reference to prove a point?

TODD HALEY?
I don't give a crap about Todd Haley but for him to say that directly to McDaniels with dozens of players/media around shows that McDaniels is thought of as a douche not just in the mane!

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Old 01-02-2013, 05:10 PM   #147
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I don't give a crap about Todd Haley but for him to say that directly to McDaniels with dozens of players/media around shows that McDaniels is thought of as a douche not just in the mane!

Fair enough.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:13 PM   #148
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Yet 90% of those players were brought in and overpaid in his first couple of years.

Now lost the skells he brought in over the next 10 years and they did not reach thatnlevel.



Btw Rod Smith was already on the team when he got here.
Shanny hit on most of those guys he brought in over the 1st 3-5 years, couple like Williams got hurt, we lost guys like Griffith and Wilson later due to injury after productive careers. It is hard to draft and hit on guys when you are in the mid to late 20's every year.

The thing is that Shanny has a proven system he can win with, he did with a couple versions of his teams under 3 different QB's in Denver and he is now doing it with Washington.

As of right now the 2 hottest teams are the Broncos with 11 straight wins and the Redskins with 7 straight.

Shanny knows how to repeatedly for find quality backs that can execute his system, he has a well designed passing game despite not having one big time WR and he found ways to get the most out of a rookie QB, something mCd couldn't do with his prized rookie QB he traded back up into the 1st round to draft.

If you look it up you will find that most of the core players that where here through the mCd years were the core guys when Shanny was here, sure mCd cut the dead weight of guys like Webster and those safeties we had but then Fox came in and cut the dead weight of the mCd busts.

Fact is Shanny is having repeated success right now based on a tried and true system, if mCd were to find another coaching job he would have nothing to build on other than what he stole from Belly and then Chucking the Ball Deep to Lloyd when that failed.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:55 PM   #149
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It's funny how we have people on here who support Cutler to the fullest yet he completely ****ted on the city of Denver. Yall are 6s just remember that.

Oh yeah... And McDaniels is a top coach in the league everyone knows that. That's why you people and the league are still talking today.
I don't know how anybody could support Cutler. As you said, he **** on Denver sorta, he's a dick, and most important, on the field he's actually not all that great. He throws way too many INT's, makes bad decisions all the time, doesn't have a positive attitude and is constantly badgering teammates when he makes just as many mistakes as anybody else on the team.

To be 100% honest, I'm glad he's not a Bronco anymore. To me, he's alot like Tony Romo. Will have some great games but for the most part, just way too consistent at making mistakes.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:56 PM   #150
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Hell of an argument you got there.

My arguement is backed up by seeing the worst span of Broncos football I have ever seen in my entire life. And to think McDaniels had little to do with it is asinine.

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