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Old 12-30-2012, 09:36 PM   #226
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Depends. He's given us the blueprint for how to play this scheme. Fox is a defensive-minded coach, and all Del Rio really did was change how we play the D-line up front. The rest of the scheme looks vastly similar to what Dennis Allen did.

I think with the amount of success we've had. Fox would look to hire a coach that understands what Del Rio did and would keep the scheme intact. We've dominated with this scheme, and everyone of true importance is locked up for next year.

I'd rather keep Jack, of course, but if he gets a head coaching gig, I think we run the same thing with vastly similar success barring injuries. Maybe some minor fall off.
So lets say the Raiders fire Allen and we lose JDR, does Allen comeback? Personally I would love Lovie if he got fired but that would really change the scheme.
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:45 AM   #227
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I can't imagine, at all, that we change our scheme after the year we've had. Super Bowl win or no, this defensive scheme is a beast and Wolfe has been dynamite as a DE. Malik Jackson is his direct backup, though we've given him 100+ snaps this year mostly at DT to get him some experience, at least according to PFF's snap data.

Ayers has only played DE for us this season, and almost exclusively on pure passing downs. He's played 317 snaps this year and 216 of those were on passing downs. (Dumervil and Wolfe are both over 900 snaps for the year with a much more equal run/pass ratio). His usage this season was vastly different than how we used him last year. And if we continue to use the scheme we used this year, I don't see Ayers playing a two gap 5 tech DE next year.

With all that being said. I agree with your point that we could go a variety of routes with the draft. It will be interesting to see which route we go, but with the success we've had, I think the odds suggest we keep our scheme and Wolfe the same.
Well lets just agree to disagree. Ayers lined up a lot inside Dumervil and also played DE some on first downs against the run.

And it's not about changing the scheme. It's about getting the best players for the most important part of the defense. Even with Mike Adams and no real Mike we're still a top 5 defense against the run and pass. Why? It's simply because of our DL plus Von. And with Bannan aging and inferior players like Unrein, Siliga, Jackson we are going to upgrade that unit.

I'm not advocating changing the scheme to achieve that, just getting better players to improve the scheme. For example, why settle for Unrein or Siliga when you can have a shot at a superior two gapper in Glen Dorsey who's a long term answer or a superior prospect through the draft? You think a better two gapping DT will only play 20 or so snaps a game?

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Old 12-31-2012, 04:09 AM   #228
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Well lets just agree to disagree. Ayers lined up a lot inside Dumervil and also played DE some on first downs against the run.

And it's not about changing the scheme. It's about getting the best players for the most important part of the defense. Even with Mike Adams and no real Mike we're still a top 5 defense against the run and pass. Why? It's simply because of our DL plus Von. And with Bannan aging and inferior players like Unrein, Siliga, Jackson we are going to upgrade that unit.

I'm not advocating changing the scheme to achieve that, just getting better players to improve the scheme. For example, why settle for Unrein or Siliga when you can have a shot at a superior two gapper in Glen Dorsey who's a long term answer or a superior prospect through the draft? You think a better two gapping DT will only play 20 or so snaps a game?
This is what I have been suggesting. Upgrading talent! And several posters have questioned that! If you look at the first page, of all the DTs on our roster, I would make sure Vicketson is back, and we both agree he has been our best DT. Unrein/ Silga should be replaced in the draft with at least one prospect if not 2 and one in free agency, whether that's Bannan back or upgraded with a Knighton/Dorsey which is what I would prefer. So you rotate a Knighton and Vickerson with the two rookies. Lots of talent and youth inside!
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:04 AM   #229
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This is what I have been suggesting. Upgrading talent! And several posters have questioned that! If you look at the first page, of all the DTs on our roster, I would make sure Vicketson is back, and we both agree he has been our best DT. Unrein/ Silga should be replaced in the draft with at least one prospect if not 2 and one in free agency, whether that's Bannan back or upgraded with a Knighton/Dorsey which is what I would prefer. So you rotate a Knighton and Vickerson with the two rookies. Lots of talent and youth inside!
Yeah, this is a rare offseason for Denver where we don't have multiple needs across the board like every year.

Since we have a two/three year window I don't want to rely on untested/inferior talent like Siliga/Unrein/Jackon. I would rather address DL through free agency and draft and then go BPA for the rest of the draft to setup this team for the long haul (even if it means we go QB first day again)and lock up our own like Leonhard, Vickerson, Koppen etc.
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:18 AM   #230
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So lets say the Raiders fire Allen and we lose JDR, does Allen comeback? Personally I would love Lovie if he got fired but that would really change the scheme.
It's definitely possible. The Pats did something similar with McD. As for Lovie, I think the blueprint is here on how to play our personnel. I'm sure he'd be able to make it work. The true nuance is when to call blitzes and such, and Smith's always been good at that.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:03 AM   #231
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Well lets just agree to disagree. Ayers lined up a lot inside Dumervil and also played DE some on first downs against the run.

And it's not about changing the scheme. It's about getting the best players for the most important part of the defense. Even with Mike Adams and no real Mike we're still a top 5 defense against the run and pass. Why? It's simply because of our DL plus Von. And with Bannan aging and inferior players like Unrein, Siliga, Jackson we are going to upgrade that unit.

I'm not advocating changing the scheme to achieve that, just getting better players to improve the scheme. For example, why settle for Unrein or Siliga when you can have a shot at a superior two gapper in Glen Dorsey who's a long term answer or a superior prospect through the draft? You think a better two gapping DT will only play 20 or so snaps a game?

On a personal level, I agree with both you and Bmore Manning. I just have serious doubts that the front office believes we need to spend top resources at DT, especially after our success this year with three guys that would be considered league average at best. We do have to pinch pennies somewhere in order to extend our WRs and Woodyard.

Keep in mind, last year as fans, we thought Bunkley and Thomas were must-resigns after strong years. Neither were.

As for snap count, as long as we have Manning and continue to play with the lead, a DT in our scheme will continue to have very limited snaps. And Denver's mile high air will always dictate the big DTs play in a rotation.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:23 AM   #232
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Denver will take another DT with one of their top four selections this year. Too good of value to pass up. They would be silly not to.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:28 AM   #233
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On a personal level, I agree with both you and Bmore Manning. I just have serious doubts that the front office believes we need to spend top resources at DT, especially after our success this year with three guys that would be considered league average at best. We do have to pinch pennies somewhere in order to extend our WRs and Woodyard.

Keep in mind, last year as fans, we thought Bunkley and Thomas were must-resigns after strong years. Neither were.

As for snap count, as long as we have Manning and continue to play with the lead, a DT in our scheme will continue to have very limited snaps. And Denver's mile high air will always dictate the big DTs play in a rotation.
Woodyard got an extension, and we will have DT and Decker still on their rookie deals. They are eligible to be extended now per the CBA. And if that's something that the front office addresses this offseason that's fine. But Woodyard was just extended he wont be extended again after the year.

I know your thinking in terms of a FO evaluator and in their mindset you wouldn't think DT is a priority position. But I think the heavy rotation is because the talent level and age of the DTs isn't exposed as much in a rotation. We really really need someone who can push the pocket and generate interior pressure even if they are two gapping.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:32 AM   #234
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Denver will take another DT with one of their top four selections this year. Too good of value to pass up. They would be silly not to.
Exactly what I think. There is too much value and quality players at the position to not select one. Since we are in a fortunate position to not have many holes, we need to draft for the strength of the draft. I would have no problem with drafting back to back DTs instead of reaching on a weaker position of the draft. Strong drafting teams draft to some combination of BPA, mixed with need, and the strength of the draft!
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:34 AM   #235
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Denver will take another DT with one of their top four selections this year. Too good of value to pass up. They would be silly not to.
We've been down this road so many times with this franchise, and they always go the other direction. If we don't count Wolfe as a DT, you and I have been asking for DTs for almost a decade now across several Bronco forums, adament that this would be the year, only to be disappointed.

I'll believe it after it happens, *and* they actually play the DT at DT.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:44 AM   #236
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Woodyard got an extension, and we will have DT and Decker still on their rookie deals. They are eligible to be extended now per the CBA. And if that's something that the front office addresses this offseason that's fine. But Woodyard was just extended he wont be extended again after the year.

I know your thinking in terms of a FO evaluator and in their mindset you wouldn't think DT is a priority position. But I think the heavy rotation is because the talent level and age of the DTs isn't exposed as much in a rotation. We really really need someone who can push the pocket and generate interior pressure even if they are two gapping.

Woodyard only has a year left. If we want to keep him, we'll be extending him this coming year, same with Decker. Though Thomas is ours through 2014 unless that final year voided somehow.

Your opinion on the DT situation is definitely valid, and I hope you're right. I just won't believe it until I see it. There's just too much to suggest otherwise.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:25 PM   #237
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I think we should make every effort to keep our current DT rotation while adding someone on the second day. Bannan and Unrein have both done well for us overall.

As far as the draft goes I'd love to see Minter with the 32nd overall pick and Lacey with 64th overall pick. Though I have a feeling Lacey probably goes sooner than that.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:39 PM   #238
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We really really need someone who can push the pocket and generate interior pressure even if they are two gapping.
We led the league in sacks this year. To say we "really, really need" interior pressure is silly. Seems more like a luxury than a true need right now.
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:00 PM   #239
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We led the league in sacks this year. To say we "really, really need" interior pressure is silly. Seems more like a luxury than a true need right now.
How many of those sacks came from our DTs? Not to many huh? You need to be able to push the pocket from the inside to beat the best QBs. Why is that so hard to believe that it's important?
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:04 PM   #240
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I think we should make every effort to keep our current DT rotation while adding someone on the second day. Bannan and Unrein have both done well for us overall.

As far as the draft goes I'd love to see Minter with the 32nd overall pick and Lacey with 64th overall pick. Though I have a feeling Lacey probably goes sooner than that.
Yeah I would love too see Minter too, funny how I mocked him to us and then a second day DT.. But in your second post you think its silly that I suggest we draft a DT. And you praise the play of Bannan and Unrein, who are the two we should upgrade and you don't mention the great play of Vickerson who has been our best DT by far!
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Old 12-31-2012, 07:55 PM   #241
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Watching the LSU/Clemson game and I flat out like this Malliciah Goodman for Clemson. Reading up on him I see he is a hard working DE and the guy has logged over 2000 career snaps too. 6-4 280 pound DE and projected between 4.60-4.80 40 yard dash. Might not be a bad prospect for the 4th or 5th round. I was thinking we didn't have a 4th rounder though.
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:23 PM   #242
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How many of those sacks came from our DTs? Not to many huh? You need to be able to push the pocket from the inside to beat the best QBs. Why is that so hard to believe that it's important?
Just how many sack would we have had if the QB could have stepped up into the pocket. Since the DTs did a good job of pushing the OL back into the pocket the QB had no where to go.

That is not to say that I would not want a Wilfork type but inherently DT types do not get many sacks.
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:44 AM   #243
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Just how many sack would we have had if the QB could have stepped up into the pocket. Since the DTs did a good job of pushing the OL back into the pocket the QB had no where to go.

That is not to say that I would not want a Wilfork type but inherently DT types do not get many sacks.
This is completely incorrect. The good QBs we played would step up in the pocket to avoid Doom and Miller. An interior push would just crush a QB from all angles. Don't pretend we have a dominate interior.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:05 PM   #244
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On a personal level, I agree with both you and Bmore Manning. I just have serious doubts that the front office believes we need to spend top resources at DT, especially after our success this year with three guys that would be considered league average at best. We do have to pinch pennies somewhere in order to extend our WRs and Woodyard.

Keep in mind, last year as fans, we thought Bunkley and Thomas were must-resigns after strong years. Neither were.

As for snap count, as long as we have Manning and continue to play with the lead, a DT in our scheme will continue to have very limited snaps. And Denver's mile high air will always dictate the big DTs play in a rotation.
Hmm. . . Maybe. The FO already spent its top pick last targetted towards a DL who's played a lot at DT.

I agree that they're not going to go out and try to break the bank for somone like Melton if he comes loose, but last year this FO spent $4.5 million on a one year try out for Mays, had DJ at around the same price until he renogiated so without those two players playing the majority of the season who else will they value given how well our DL has played?

The draft will have excellent value at DT and we have a need with Warren already on IR and Bannan turning 35, and JDR already knows we don't have a single LB outside of Von that is any good in traffic, shedding and tackling so they'll need someone upfront alongside Wolfe/Vickerson to plow the way.
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:30 PM   #245
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Hmm. . . Maybe. The FO already spent its top pick last targetted towards a DL who's played a lot at DT.

I agree that they're not going to go out and try to break the bank for somone like Melton if he comes loose, but last year this FO spent $4.5 million on a one year try out for Mays, had DJ at around the same price until he renogiated so without those two players playing the majority of the season who else will they value given how well our DL has played?

The draft will have excellent value at DT and we have a need with Warren already on IR and Bannan turning 35, and JDR already knows we don't have a single LB outside of Von that is any good in traffic, shedding and tackling so they'll need someone upfront alongside Wolfe/Vickerson to plow the way.
Melton wouldn't fit the scheme if we continue two gapping.. Knighton would be a welcomed addition, but he's going to cost around $4 - $5 million a season. That's why I keep pushing for improved talent up front. With our current personnel at LB, their abilities and best attributes will be brought out if they can freely flow to the ball. Especially with some of these MLB prospects I see people asking for, who get washed out of plays easily in college, making the transition to the NFL will prove to be a difficult one, if the DTs in front of them cannot dominate.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:43 AM   #246
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Melton wouldn't fit the scheme if we continue two gapping.. Knighton would be a welcomed addition, but he's going to cost around $4 - $5 million a season. That's why I keep pushing for improved talent up front. With our current personnel at LB, their abilities and best attributes will be brought out if they can freely flow to the ball. Especially with some of these MLB prospects I see people asking for, who get washed out of plays easily in college, making the transition to the NFL will prove to be a difficult one, if the DTs in front of them cannot dominate.
We already have a MLB in Irving who doesn't see the field at Mike because he can't fight through traffic and shed blocks so he's been tried as a backup to Von this year. It's extremely rare to find a three down Mike that's at home in coverage and can shed blocks and still make plays.

This is why the progression of Raheem Moore/Chris Harris has been so vital for our defense because those guys flow to the ball carrier extremely quickly and don't miss tackles preventing those big plays on the ground.

I can certainly understand the argument that with guys like Bannan/Unrein/Jackson our DL played well, but it's a flawed argument because against the cream of the AFC (Houston/New England) that same DL was blown off the ball and lost the battle in the trenches. That's what we're up against. Not the mediocre teams in the AFC but the playoff calibre teams that we'll face again and again in the playoffs. And to compete against that we need superior DL that will take away the run and make Schaub one dimensional and so on.

We have around $10million extra cap dollars to work with on defense with DJ/Mays not really in the picture next year (at least not under their current deals). That money has to be dedicated somewhere and I don't see a free agent MLB that's worth that. DL though, absolutely.
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:49 AM   #247
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We already have a MLB in Irving who doesn't see the field at Mike because he can't fight through traffic and shed blocks so he's been tried as a backup to Von this year. It's extremely rare to find a three down Mike that's at home in coverage and can shed blocks and still make plays.

This is why the progression of Raheem Moore/Chris Harris has been so vital for our defense because those guys flow to the ball carrier extremely quickly and don't miss tackles preventing those big plays on the ground.

I can certainly understand the argument that with guys like Bannan/Unrein/Jackson our DL played well, but it's a flawed argument because against the cream of the AFC (Houston/New England) that same DL was blown off the ball and lost the battle in the trenches. That's what we're up against. Not the mediocre teams in the AFC but the playoff calibre teams that we'll face again and again in the playoffs. And to compete against that we need superior DL that will take away the run and make Schaub one dimensional and so on.

We have around $10million extra cap dollars to work with on defense with DJ/Mays not really in the picture next year (at least not under their current deals). That money has to be dedicated somewhere and I don't see a free agent MLB that's worth that. DL though, absolutely.
This is exactly what I have been trying to nail home but as you can see several posters feel our DL is dominate and leading the league in sacks means bring the same group back. But we break down deeper, so we are on the same page here.

If Minter is gone before we pick, I would not be the least bit surprised to see us not address MLB until a middle round pick 3-4 range. Someone like Jackson, Reddick, or Bostic.. and I'm sure there are some others.

Just curious where you got your cap figure from?

But in free agency, I would add a veteran DT and I think there are stop gap solutions at MLB. Personally I like Larry Grant, he's not going to break the bank, and it will allow a drafted MLB time to develop or a player already on the roster, Johnson/Irving? I also like Erin Hendersons game alot, he's a big WLB for Minnesota, 245 pounds. While he hasn't played MLB, his game style, size, and athleticism would allow him to be a great 3 down MLB provided he can make the transition. But he would also be very affordable.

Then your looking at an Urlacher if he isn't retained, maybe a Ray Lewis, the speculation here in Baltimore is they may release him, and same thing with a player like Bart Scott, who was almost traded then released this year from the Jets.

Personally I like the price tag, age, and upside of Larry Grant and Erin Henderson, that will allow flexibility in the draft!
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:14 PM   #248
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My offseason is a bit of a long shot but here we go.

DT Melton or Jason Jones

S Byrd or Gholdson

WR Amendola or Hartline

MLB needs to be address either by trade or draft.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:57 PM   #249
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My offseason is a bit of a long shot but here we go.

DT Melton or Jason Jones

S Byrd or Gholdson

WR Amendola or Hartline

MLB needs to be address either by trade or draft.
At least your acknowledging this is a long shot.. But I will just talk about the scheme fit..

Melton wouldn't fit the scheme how we currently run it.
Jones esentially would fill the Wolfe role.

Byrd and Gholdson both play FS.. I think we need a big physical presence and Gholdson could potentially fit schematically. Byrd is a more talented version of Moore.

Amendola would fit in the slot..

MLB should be addressed, I would prefer FA or a trade to allow more flexibility in the draft.

Now, price wise and interest level will put all these players out of reach..
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:19 AM   #250
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Now, price wise and interest level will put all these players out of reach..
Yes, Denver doesn't need 4/5 starters out of this offseason. What it really needs is to resign guys like Leonhard, Clady, Koppen, Clark, Bruton and maybe bring into one or two FAs that are second level players but still improvements over guys like Caldwell/Willis/Unrein/Malik Jackson etc.

My choices would Austin Collie, Shaughnessy or Gilberry and Dorsey.

That would allow us to go full bore with BPA in the draft (with hopefully getting a DT in the first three rounds).

I'm hesitant to go after safety because I really think resigning Leonhard provides the best value here considering what a great leader he is and mentally knows the game inside out, plus Carter will be back next year and should be given a chance to take his starting position back from Adams.

I know what you're saying with Henderson/Grant, but my choice would be Ellerbie from the Ravens but it's no big deal.
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