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Old 12-28-2012, 04:04 PM   #201
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Austin would make Holliday expendable. It's clear we don't see eye to eye on the issue so I'm done talking about it.
DB4L we have come a long way on here, I respect your posts, I'm not just trying to argue. I'm really interested on your take on the kid. I don't think he will be available at 32, so let's assume he's not there, who else do you like at WR? I like Stedman Bailey too and think he would be better value as a mid round pick to play the slot.

Also do you think Decker is better suited to play inside or out? After watching him all season fall all over the field, I have to admit I like him as our number 2 out wide and think we just need a slot WR.

We should utilize Holiday in some packages, I think with the ball in his hands the kid is electric. But we still need to upgrade at WR, so we do see eye to eye. I just don't think Austin will be there at 32, so let's talk other options.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:15 PM   #202
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We can do better than Tony Jefferson and Kenny Stills. I'd blow my brains out if that was our 2 and 3.
Those are two very solid players. I'm not particularly fond of either, but that's about the talent level at those positions I project at that draft range. I think those two would be excellent value for us.

As for Free v. Strong Safety, they're interchangeable in schemes. At 5'11, 215lbs with 113 Tackles, Jefferson is a traditional Strong Safety in the NFL. He's eerily similar to Cleveland's stud safety, TJ Ward.

Kenny Stills reminds me a lot of former NY Giants WR Steve Smith. He was a devastating WR in the slot and outside before injuries destroyed his career.

And with Minter, you're hoping for Karlos Dansby.

I mean, if we can pull Dansby, Ward, and Smith from the first three rounds of the draft, I would hope that wouldn't depress you.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:18 PM   #203
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DB4L we have come a long way on here, I respect your posts, I'm not just trying to argue. I'm really interested on your take on the kid. I don't think he will be available at 32, so let's assume he's not there, who else do you like at WR? I like Stedman Bailey too and think he would be better value as a mid round pick to play the slot.

Also do you think Decker is better suited to play inside or out? After watching him all season fall all over the field, I have to admit I like him as our number 2 out wide and think we just need a slot WR.

We should utilize Holiday in some packages, I think with the ball in his hands the kid is electric. But we still need to upgrade at WR, so we do see eye to eye. I just don't think Austin will be there at 32, so let's talk other options.
Honest answer I think MLB and WR need upgraded the most this offseason. I prefer a vet DT over a rookie DT because we know they are game ready from the jump. Since there ins't a MLB really worth drafting in the first from what I have seen so far, my wish is for Austin for obvious reasons. I think he is the most dangerous offensive player in the draft. We need that IMO. If Austin is gone then go for the BPA.

As for Decker I like moving him around to create mismatches. I hate trying to be the Pats and all but, if we can get another WR like Austin to do that as well we will be better.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:19 PM   #204
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Isn't Elam a SS? Why couldn't he play with Moore?
Elam said he's probably going back to school. He'd likely be a late 1st, early 2nd round pick if he came out. Would definitely be on our short list at the end of round 1 if he declared. Superb player.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:25 PM   #205
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I did mock him to us, but it will require our first round pick.
I think you are right and we will keep Wolfe at DE, but it would be a mistake not to draft a talented DT should the opportunity present itself. While I agree we won't draft a gap penetrator in our scheme, I do think we will look for bigger guys who move their weight well and can pressure the QB, I.E. Brandon Williams. I have talked this kid up and will continue to. He would fit perfectly, and I still question the long term plan of the defense going forward. If Wolfe stays at DE do you really like Silga and Unrein long term?

There is a current void at SS, but there's another bad safety prospect being named. Jefferson is not the prospect I want either. If you guys are draft junkies then you will watch some tape of Cooper Taylor (Richmond). The TEs in the NFL are big and fast, we need a SS who is a hybrid OLB/SS enter Cooper Taylor. We need a big physical SS.. Ray Ray Armstrong has elite talent but does have some off field issues.

Personally, I would love for us to draft a big DT or two. Kawann Short would be ideal in Round 1, and I'd be happy with Brandon Williams in Round 3 as well. That's because I love DTs. I just don't think the team and scheme care as much as we might.

And no, nothing about Siliga or Unrein excites me. But in a heavy rotation, it makes sense for us to go cheap at DT when we have big expenses at other positions.

I don't know a thing about Cooper Taylor. I do think Jefferson is a fine prospect though. This should be a good safety draft. If Elam and Reid come out, it's even better. If we take a Safety in the 2nd or 3rd round, we should be able to get a very good one. Strong Safeties tend to be one of the safest positions to draft too, with instant production.

Armstrong will be an UDFA, he'll be an interesting name.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:34 PM   #206
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Honest answer I think MLB and WR need upgraded the most this offseason. I prefer a vet DT over a rookie DT because we know they are game ready from the jump. Since there ins't a MLB really worth drafting in the first from what I have seen so far, my wish is for Austin for obvious reasons. I think he is the most dangerous offensive player in the draft. We need that IMO. If Austin is gone then go for the BPA.

As for Decker I like moving him around to create mismatches. I hate trying to be the Pats and all but, if we can get another WR like Austin to do that as well we will be better.
I really can't imagine a scenario where Tavon Austin is a first round selection. He's nowhere near the body type of Percy Harvin. Austin is very small at 5'9, 170 lbs. Harvin was 5'11, 195. Austin probably follows another mini-mite in DeSean Jackson (5'10, 170) and goes in the Mid-Late 2nd Round. Jackson's had a tough time staying healthy because he's too small and gets destroyed several times a season. He brings the same explosiveness Austin brings though.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:00 PM   #207
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I really can't imagine a scenario where Tavon Austin is a first round selection. He's nowhere near the body type of Percy Harvin. Austin is very small at 5'9, 170 lbs. Harvin was 5'11, 195. Austin probably follows another mini-mite in DeSean Jackson (5'10, 170) and goes in the Mid-Late 2nd Round. Jackson's had a tough time staying healthy because he's too small and gets destroyed several times a season. He brings the same explosiveness Austin brings though.
I don't remember Jackson running that much in college though. Austin seems way more durable then Jackson from what I have seen.
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Old 12-29-2012, 05:18 AM   #208
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Personally, I would love for us to draft a big DT or two. Kawann Short would be ideal in Round 1, and I'd be happy with Brandon Williams in Round 3 as well. That's because I love DTs. I just don't think the team and scheme care as much as we might.

And no, nothing about Siliga or Unrein excites me. But in a heavy rotation, it makes sense for us to go cheap at DT when we have big expenses at other positions.

I don't know a thing about Cooper Taylor. I do think Jefferson is a fine prospect though. This should be a good safety draft. If Elam and Reid come out, it's even better. If we take a Safety in the 2nd or 3rd round, we should be able to get a very good one. Strong Safeties tend to be one of the safest positions to draft too, with instant production.

Armstrong will be an UDFA, he'll be an interesting name.
I would prefer two DTs myself and the exact two you named. If we are playing our scheme similar to Seattle, then we would upgrade our DTs. Since they are playing in a read and react role, playing rookies would not be detrimental to our defense. I honestly believe Short and Williams would transition well and could make a better impact then Unrein and Silga quickly. We could still resign Big Vick and another Veteran and rotate them with the rookies. I hope the FO values upgrading DTs and improving our interior like we do.

I'm thinking Minter may not be available when we are on the clock, so I have been looking at other MLB prospects. The physicality that Andrew Jackson plays with is unreal. But I would need to see him be more fluid in coverage. But the more I think about it, with our rotation to nickel coverage with the Kentucky duo, we would probably sub out our MLB. So should we really be looking for a three down MLB per say? It may contradict what we are doing with our scheme. If we can get a dominate mid round MLB who excelled against the run and attacking downfield, then he can just be rotated out in coverage. Wouldn't we prefer WW and DT on the field in coverage anyway.. I think we are doing something very similar with Brooking anyway.
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Old 12-29-2012, 06:52 AM   #209
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Hunt had a pretty good bowl game tonight, if he has a good combine I doubt he make it out of the second round.
He's a fourth round pick. Strong physical skills and presence but lacks techinque and skills. He is development kinda pick. If Al Davis was alive he might go in the first, but most teams will pick him later because he won't be immediate starter.
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:53 AM   #210
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He's a fourth round pick. Strong physical skills and presence but lacks techinque and skills. He is development kinda pick. If Al Davis was alive he might go in the first, but most teams will pick him later because he won't be immediate starter.
Wut?
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:09 AM   #211
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He's a fourth round pick. Strong physical skills and presence but lacks techinque and skills. He is development kinda pick. If Al Davis was alive he might go in the first, but most teams will pick him later because he won't be immediate starter.
I agree that his technique needs to be refined.. But he will be taken much earlier than you are suggesting. His upside is through the roof, and I could see a team picking late in the first like San Francisco, drafting and grooming him.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:23 AM   #212
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I agree that his technique needs to be refined.. But he will be taken much earlier than you are suggesting. His upside is through the roof, and I could see a team picking late in the first like San Francisco, drafting and grooming him.
He was being mocked in the 2nd back in Sept. I have seen two mocks already before he bowl game and combine with him going to the Pats in the 2nd round. 6-8 280 plus guys that are said to run a 4.6 /4.7 40 yard dash with 82 wing span don't fall to the regardless if Al Davis is dead.


1. Margus Hunt, SMU, DE/KB: The native of Estonia sounds like a PlayStation football creation: A 6-foot-8, 280 pounder with an 82-inch wingspan. Yet despite those long arms, he can still bench 225 35 times, and his coach, SMU track coach Dave Wollman, predicts Hunt will rep it 45 times next year at the NFL combine and clock a 4.60 40-yard dash. Hunt has cleaned 384 pounds, snatched 345 and vertical jumped 36 inches. "He's off-the-scale powerful," said Wollman. "On that kind of frame, seeing the cleans and the snatch go that high to the ceiling, it is amazing."


Hunt is a prodigious track talent. He won gold medals in the shot and discus at the 2006 World Junior Championships in Beijing, becoming the first junior athlete to ever achieve such a double. He didn't leave his country and move to Dallas to play college football. He moved to Texas to train with Wollman, but SMU hasn't been able to get back its men's track program. Hunt still wanted to train with Wollman, who had mentored another decorated discus thrower from Estonia. To help cover the cost of tuition, Wollman figured with Hunt's size and athleticism, he might be able to help the Mustangs football team. After Hunt blasted blocking sleds and ran a 4.70 40 during a tryout, June Jones said, "Oh yeah, I'll take him."

That move has paid off nicely for the Mustangs on the gridiron. Hunt has blocked 14 kicks in three years and had 7.5 tackles for loss last season, including a breakout three-sack performance in SMU's bowl win over Pitt. Wollman has coached 19 Olympians in his career and Hunt has the athleticism and is hard-wired to become No. 20. "He's the most kinetic aware of any athlete I've ever had," Wollman said, launching into a dissertation about Hunt's wondrous hand-eye coordination and a remarkable acute level of body awareness. As a football player, Hunt is still pretty raw, having only played -- and trained for the sport -- for just a few years. He says this offseason he's working to get his legs bigger and hopes to lower his center of gravity. Hunt has even put his track career on hold for football, which has bothered some folks back home, he said: "I was called a national traitor because I 'started doing some stupid sport.' My mom reads the Internet comments. I had to calm her down. But no matter what, Estonia will always be my home country."

Wollman is optimistic that his protégé won't just make it in the NFL soon, but that Hunt's visibility and what he's done for Mustang football will also help bring the men's track program back to SMU.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoot...llege-football
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:12 AM   #213
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He's a fourth round pick. Strong physical skills and presence but lacks techinque and skills. He is development kinda pick. If Al Davis was alive he might go in the first, but most teams will pick him later because he won't be immediate starter.
He is a work in progress, but he is going to go higher than that.
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:09 PM   #214
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Could Freeney be a pass rushing specialist from the left end position? Lets say Denver drafts Short or whatever DT is available in the first round. Keeping Wolfe at DE during run downs and then kicking him inside could Freeney come in and play end on rush downs?
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:37 PM   #215
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Could Freeney be a pass rushing specialist from the left end position? Lets say Denver drafts Short or whatever DT is available in the first round. Keeping Wolfe at DE during run downs and then kicking him inside could Freeney come in and play end on rush downs?
I could see something like that happening..But not at the price tag that he is accustom too! He's making 19 million this year. But that's what Miller does on passing downs. Freeney is not good coming off the edge if he's not playing with a hand in the ground..

My thinking is we have plenty of pass rushers and depth in our scheme everywhere except DT and SLB. If Von got hurt god forbid, we don't have anyone who can rush from OLB and we would have to revert to being a more traditional 4-3.. Using a lineup of Doom, Wolfe, NT, and Ayers/Hunter. But what would the LBs look like? Woodyard, MLB, and Irving? It's something to consider..
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Old 12-30-2012, 01:26 PM   #216
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Who two gaps on the Broncos? Because I do not see it on the film..it's a totally different alignment and technique, it's usually very noticeable... Maybe Fontaine can verify this, he also studies the D Line.. I just don't see this 3-3-5 as our base and using two gapping?

When we run 3-3-5 the D Line consists of Doom, Wolfe, and Ayers. Wolfe will line up at the NT 0 technique and two gap. But Doom and Ayers do not play 5 techniques..I just don't see how two gapping and our scheme are intertwined..
On running downs Bannan/Vickerson/Wolfe two gap and have to:
1. Occupy two blockers
2. Clog the gaps versus the run.

This allows Von/Doom to largely remain single blocked as Doom lines up in a wide alignment (most of the times).

All three of those guys largely do a good job of it, when they don't we end up giving ground in the run game (NE, Houston games) and our pass rush is negated. They'll primarily go for the run but react if it's play action or a pass situation.

On 2nd and long, 3rd downs we started to really substitute in Ayers and other pass rushers and kepping Bannan/Vickerson off the field.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:57 PM   #217
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On running downs Bannan/Vickerson/Wolfe two gap and have to:
1. Occupy two blockers
2. Clog the gaps versus the run.

This allows Von/Doom to largely remain single blocked as Doom lines up in a wide alignment (most of the times).

All three of those guys largely do a good job of it, when they don't we end up giving ground in the run game (NE, Houston games) and our pass rush is negated. They'll primarily go for the run but react if it's play action or a pass situation.

On 2nd and long, 3rd downs we started to really substitute in Ayers and other pass rushers and kepping Bannan/Vickerson off the field.
Yeah, it's a read and react two gap. I have admitted I was wrong, but the two gapping is not evident except for the suttle read by those three. Ironically Seattle will two gap the strong side of the line only.

I think we need to draft DTs who can two gap and still generate pressure. Vickerson is the only DT who can do both. Bannan and Unrein cannot.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:09 PM   #218
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Yeah, it's a read and react two gap. I have admitted I was wrong, but the two gapping is not evident except for the suttle read by those three. Ironically Seattle will two gap the strong side of the line only.

I think we need to draft DTs who can two gap and still generate pressure. Vickerson is the only DT who can do both. Bannan and Unrein cannot.
Yeah, it's tough to spot and you really have to watch it a few times. I'm not really interested in going into next year expecting a 34 year Bannan to play as much as he did this year, but Vickerson definitey needs to be resigned as he doesn't have much wear on him and clearly plays well at 320+. Since he already took a paycut/renogiated his contract I don't think he'll price himself out of Denver's reach.

There's tremendous value in the draft at DT and it doesn't have to be in the first day but it's going to be interesting to see which way they go. BPA or address a position like WR or Safety with Quinton Carter going through microfracture surgery.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:17 PM   #219
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With the scheme we run, we won't be looking for penetration DTs. Guys like Sheldon Richardson, Margus Hunt, and Bennie Logan are not what we want. Their role in our defense is filled by Wolfe and Jackson. And since we only want read and react cloggers that play less than half the snaps each, I can't imagine we take a DT early this draft.

Likewise, with our scheme, the DE position is full. Ayers, Dumervil, Wolfe, and Jackson. No room for another active DE. I don't see us going D-line at all within the top three rounds, if at all.
Hmm. . . we took Wolfe as a DT who could penetrate and on obvious passing downs shift Ayers inside for pass rush who'll be in his final year so I don't agree.

Jackson has hardly played this season (if you don't count garbage time) and is still nothing more than a project who needs to put in a lot of offseason strength and conditioning work so it makes no sense to go into next season relying on him and not looking for an upgrade from guys like Jackson, Siliga, and Unrein. Two out of those have hardly played.

We can definitely do better there.

I think we have options here anyway because we could always look to shift Wolfe inside and have someone like Ayers start so the draft will at DL will really depend on what happens in free agency.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:10 PM   #220
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Hmm. . . we took Wolfe as a DT who could penetrate and on obvious passing downs shift Ayers inside for pass rush who'll be in his final year so I don't agree.

Jackson has hardly played this season (if you don't count garbage time) and is still nothing more than a project who needs to put in a lot of offseason strength and conditioning work so it makes no sense to go into next season relying on him and not looking for an upgrade from guys like Jackson, Siliga, and Unrein. Two out of those have hardly played.

We can definitely do better there.

I think we have options here anyway because we could always look to shift Wolfe inside and have someone like Ayers start so the draft will at DL will really depend on what happens in free agency.
Wolfe needs to gain weight to play inside. I was hard on him in here, I didn't realize 3 players on our DLine were two gapping. Given that and our scheme, I like Wolfe outside. But I have to agree and I have been very vocal about upgrading our DTs. I really think Vickerson should be back, and Silga/Unrein upgraded via the draft, it's a strength of the draft as I keep saying and we need to double up! Cincy did it last year with Still and Thompson.. They play behind Adkins, Peko, and Sims, yet they took the value that's was there. We need to do that this year. I also wouldn't mind upgrading Bannan via free agency. Again he has played solid, but we can do better and younger. Someone who can stop the run but get after the QB.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:16 PM   #221
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Hmm. . . we took Wolfe as a DT who could penetrate and on obvious passing downs shift Ayers inside for pass rush who'll be in his final year so I don't agree.

Jackson has hardly played this season (if you don't count garbage time) and is still nothing more than a project who needs to put in a lot of offseason strength and conditioning work so it makes no sense to go into next season relying on him and not looking for an upgrade from guys like Jackson, Siliga, and Unrein. Two out of those have hardly played.

We can definitely do better there.

I think we have options here anyway because we could always look to shift Wolfe inside and have someone like Ayers start so the draft will at DL will really depend on what happens in free agency.
I understand the recovery issue with Carter, and I am more than fine with drafting a SS, but not Elam and some of the other prospects I have seen named. We will have Adams for one more year, that will allow Carter to slowly be brought back and then I have advocated a later SS. I want a Cam Chancelor mold SS. The TEs in the NFL are getting bigger and faster. I want a big physical hybrid SS. Enter Cooper Taylor, Kenny Tate, and Ray Ray Armstrong. All big 6'4" 6'5" 230 pound SS, that are big and physical, good in coverage, and can be drafted LATE! Watch some of Cooper Taylor (Richmond) kid is a monster.
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:12 PM   #222
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Hmm. . . we took Wolfe as a DT who could penetrate and on obvious passing downs shift Ayers inside for pass rush who'll be in his final year so I don't agree.

Jackson has hardly played this season (if you don't count garbage time) and is still nothing more than a project who needs to put in a lot of offseason strength and conditioning work so it makes no sense to go into next season relying on him and not looking for an upgrade from guys like Jackson, Siliga, and Unrein. Two out of those have hardly played.

We can definitely do better there.

I think we have options here anyway because we could always look to shift Wolfe inside and have someone like Ayers start so the draft will at DL will really depend on what happens in free agency.

We drafted Wolfe to play DE. That was the report almost as soon as we drafted him. Myself, and pretty much everyone else, thought that was stupid and that he'd be playing DT, the report was clearly wrong. It turns out I just didn't understand the defense we would be playing.

Del Rio later said that for Wolfe to play DT, he'd have to gain significant weight, but that he could see that as his long term position. That was, of course, before we went on to become one of the most dominating defenses in the NFL.

I can't imagine, at all, that we change our scheme after the year we've had. Super Bowl win or no, this defensive scheme is a beast and Wolfe has been dynamite as a DE. Malik Jackson is his direct backup, though we've given him 100+ snaps this year mostly at DT to get him some experience, at least according to PFF's snap data.

Ayers has only played DE for us this season, and almost exclusively on pure passing downs. He's played 317 snaps this year and 216 of those were on passing downs. (Dumervil and Wolfe are both over 900 snaps for the year with a much more equal run/pass ratio). His usage this season was vastly different than how we used him last year. And if we continue to use the scheme we used this year, I don't see Ayers playing a two gap 5 tech DE next year.

With all that being said. I agree with your point that we could go a variety of routes with the draft. It will be interesting to see which route we go, but with the success we've had, I think the odds suggest we keep our scheme and Wolfe the same.
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:15 PM   #223
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How does our needs change if god for bid we lost JDR though?
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:27 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Bmore Manning View Post
I would prefer two DTs myself and the exact two you named. If we are playing our scheme similar to Seattle, then we would upgrade our DTs. Since they are playing in a read and react role, playing rookies would not be detrimental to our defense. I honestly believe Short and Williams would transition well and could make a better impact then Unrein and Silga quickly. We could still resign Big Vick and another Veteran and rotate them with the rookies. I hope the FO values upgrading DTs and improving our interior like we do.

I'm thinking Minter may not be available when we are on the clock, so I have been looking at other MLB prospects. The physicality that Andrew Jackson plays with is unreal. But I would need to see him be more fluid in coverage. But the more I think about it, with our rotation to nickel coverage with the Kentucky duo, we would probably sub out our MLB. So should we really be looking for a three down MLB per say? It may contradict what we are doing with our scheme. If we can get a dominate mid round MLB who excelled against the run and attacking downfield, then he can just be rotated out in coverage. Wouldn't we prefer WW and DT on the field in coverage anyway.. I think we are doing something very similar with Brooking anyway.

50/50 Minter is there or not. If he's gone I could easily see us go with a SS or WR at that point. I'd love for us to go DT, and I hope we do, but I have my reservations that we would go that route for all the reasons previously posted. Still, nothing would make me happier than if we draft Kawann Short or another DT.

In regards to our LB rotation, it's probably up in the air. We started the season with Joe Mays never leaving the field. And Brooking is actually second on our team at LB with coverage drops behind Woodyard. Woodyard has 416 coverage drops, while Mays/Brooking combined have 312. Miller has 141, Trevathan 146, Williams, 53.

So, by that data, we do prefer our MLB to stay on the field on all downs and be effective in coverage. Mays got benched because he was ineffective in his coverage drops. Brooking has actually graded out pretty well, but has been much weaker against the run. From what I can tell, we want our MLB to be best dropping into coverage and merely solid against the run. So, when I'm looking for MLBs for us next year, particularly in the draft, I'm looking for 3 down MIKEs effective against the run, but also with high level coverage ability. That's why I think Minter is a lock for our pick. There just aren't too many in this draft. Andrew Jackson, for me, is not a possibility for our team. He's Joe Mays. And we've decided that with Manning and playing with a lead so often that coverage skills are a must for our MLB.
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:33 PM   #225
Mat'hir Uth Gan
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Originally Posted by DBroncos4life View Post
How does our needs change if god for bid we lost JDR though?
Depends. He's given us the blueprint for how to play this scheme. Fox is a defensive-minded coach, and all Del Rio really did was change how we play the D-line up front. The rest of the scheme looks vastly similar to what Dennis Allen did.

I think with the amount of success we've had. Fox would look to hire a coach that understands what Del Rio did and would keep the scheme intact. We've dominated with this scheme, and everyone of true importance is locked up for next year.

I'd rather keep Jack, of course, but if he gets a head coaching gig, I think we run the same thing with vastly similar success barring injuries. Maybe some minor fall off.
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