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Old 12-25-2012, 06:34 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Kaylore View Post
Here's a list of first overall QB's taken in the last 20 years.

Bolded are the ones who played in a spread offense.

Drew Bledsoe
Peyton Manning
Tim Couch
Michael Vick
David Carr
Carson Palmer
Eli Manning
Alex Smith
Jamarcus Russell
Matthew Stafford
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Andrew Luck
Nice way to twist the facts to make Geno look bad.

Ben Roethlisberger played in the spread, too.

It's no longer the red flag it once was.

Especially since Geno has played in two different system and makes plenty of NFL caliber throws.
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Old 12-25-2012, 06:39 PM   #102
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RG3 should definitely be included in the spread convo. He went 2nd, but he's still a prime example.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:05 PM   #103
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I don't know if this was posted in the thread, and I'm not going to sift through 5 pages to find out.

Chiefs: 1st team in NFL history to lose a game with 350 yd rushing.
According to Pro Football Reference.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:24 PM   #104
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Denver by 30, nothing to see here...except for Lerch throwing his first NFL passes as PFM will be rocking the sock hat by the 4th.
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:37 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Bob's your Information Minister View Post
Nice way to twist the facts to make Geno look bad.

Ben Roethlisberger played in the spread, too.

It's no longer the red flag it once was.

Especially since Geno has played in two different system and makes plenty of NFL caliber throws.
The system Smith plays in now was derived from the EXACT system Tim Couch played in at Kentucky in 1997 and 1998. Coach Mumme and Coach Leach attended alot of clinic lectures from LaVell Edwards and Norm Chow at BYU in the 1980s and early 1990s and often went up to BYU to soak in their ideas about the passing game. It was often siad that Mumme and Leach brought the BYU Offense "on steroids" to Kentucky, by taking what they felt were BYU's most successful plays, adding alot of new and interesting screen passes (the bubble screen became a staple in part due to its use in the late 90s at UK and also at Purdue, as did the WR middle screen and quick screen), and running it out of the shotgun, repping individual plays over and over ith a few tags here and there. They began with classic Mesh route from BYU. This was primarily a man to man beater, but they changed one route in the combo that made it deadly vs. zone by creating a triangle on the strongside that included both a horizontal stretch on the flat defender and a vertical stretch on said defender. They also blended together what was the original BYU "66" pass (their All Curl) with the BYU 67 pass (their three vertical pattern) so you would have a terrific pass that would work against all zones (Cov 2, Cov 3 and Quarters). They also took both of BYU's flood patterns, the strongside flood (65) and the weakside flood (69). They renumbered them in their offense and had the HB run an option route on their weakside flood. The weakside flood, known at UK, then T.T. and now W.V.U as "Y-Cross" was a big play waiting to happen and was very difficult for ILB's to defend because it started out looking alot like All-Curl and if they dropped too deep to choke the deep crossing route off, the TE could just sit down in the void. If he "got on top" of the MLB and made the deep cross, then the WLB would always be in a bind with the deep cross at 17-22 yards on top and the HB option route on the bottom. Whatever he does, he is wrong. The FS would also be neutralized by the outside WR's vertical. It is a beautiful three level stretch that has been a big gainer for over 20 years at various schools. Mumme and Leach expanded the BYU quick game which was the basic slant combos and hitch combos and they added the popular Y-Stick route which is prevalent in nearly all offenses. In 1997 and 1998 they ran Y-Stick so many times successfully with James Whalen (played for the Cowboys for awhile) and once teams adapted to try and overplay the stick, they added the Y-Corner route to take advantage of the overreaction. In 1998, Mumme added the "Shallow Crossing Series", which he learned from our very own Shanny. This was a great route that is still used by Air Raid teams today, including Dana Holgerson at West Virginia. Very, very versatile and great vs. all coverages, with simple rules to learn, but hard to defend.

At West Virginia, they are still runnign many of the same classic Air Raid concepts with Geno that Tim Couch ran 15 years ago. They still run the two old BYU flood routes (Y-Cross and Y-Sail) and the Shallow Crossing Series and Holgerson has also emphasized the four verticals route, which everyone runs, but they have tried to perfect it. They do not run as much of the horizontal stuff as was the case at UK (they don't rush Mesh much, except in the Red Zone), but alot of hte classic Air Raid stuff is still there (Stick is still there, Corner is still there). Holgerson has added things which the other two QBs Khan mentioned (Newton and Smith) ran alot in their offenses. We have to make a distinction between pass-first spread offenses (such as the UK/Texas Tech Air Raid) and run-first spread offenses (Urban Meyer Gun option). Smith ran literally the latter at Utah in 2003-2004, featuring the basic read option, the triple option, speed option, shovel option etc., whereas Newton ran a similar offense under Gus Malzahn at Auburn (actually Auburn's offense is not so much a style as it is a tempo, if you read Malzahn's book, his empahsis is not so much on plays, but rather how fast to play, no-huddle, etc.)

What Smith is doing now in the passing game is similar to Couch, and there is some component similar to the run stuff for Smith. Actually, what Holgerson has really done there is try to do both at once and by at once I mean in the same play. They have their "duel read" packages, where you take it a step further from simply passing from the spread when the box numbers arent favorable and running when the box numbers are favorable. Instead, what he is doing is having both a run play and a pass play in the same actual call. There is no need to audible or anything like that. The most famous example is the Y-Stick/Draw combo. They will block the draw up front, which naturally starts out looking like a pass block anyway and depending on the movement of the ILB after the snap, they hand off the draw or throw the Stick route. There is alot of duel read stuff they do. They have a pattern where the OL will all run block, three WRs will be on one side, two of which will block on the defenders one will be ready to catch a quick screen and on the single reciever side they will run an option route, so you have it all there, there's no audibling or anything so that there is no chance of being decieved by the defense. Either the defense will have two guys covering the three recievers which leaves the screen open, or they will only assign one corner to the option route with no deep safety, or they wont have people in the box, so you dont check to anything, its 3 rolled into 1, no communication needed. Just snap it and decide.

Sorry for rambling, but the point is Bob this is not an NFL style of offense, none of these are. The classic Air Raid is not NFL style, the run game aspect of what they do with Geno is not NFL style, and certainly the duel read stuff is not NFL style. Personally, I think it would be fun to try and incorporate some of these things into the NFL (you see Shanny doing some of Baylor's stuff with RGIII, at least trying as best he can to blend together his traditional attack with the RG3 college stuff), but certainly most NFL offenses will be much different for Geno and that means he won't be at a strategic advantage with these special systems like he was in college (and like Tim Couch benefitted from back in the day when no one else ran this and virtually no one, not even in the big bad SEC knew how to defend it. Look at the old Kentucky scores from the last 90s, they had weak talent and still put up alot of points on major powers...same kinda thing for Geno, although he does have some good WRs).

IMO, you would be better served drafting Tyler Wilson. Now he's NOT worthy of the No. 1 overall pick, but I think he is a first round QB talent. I think Geno isn't a first round QB talent. He's a good athlete, but I'm not seeing it as a pro QB. I'm not trying to rag on the Chiefs Bob, this is my honest opinion.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:14 AM   #106
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The system Smith plays in now was derived from the EXACT system Tim Couch played in at Kentucky in 1997 and 1998. Coach Mumme and Coach Leach attended alot of clinic lectures from LaVell Edwards and Norm Chow at BYU in the 1980s and early 1990s and often went up to BYU to soak in their ideas about the passing game. It was often siad that Mumme and Leach brought the BYU Offense "on steroids" to Kentucky, by taking what they felt were BYU's most successful plays, adding alot of new and interesting screen passes (the bubble screen became a staple in part due to its use in the late 90s at UK and also at Purdue, as did the WR middle screen and quick screen), and running it out of the shotgun, repping individual plays over and over ith a few tags here and there. They began with classic Mesh route from BYU. This was primarily a man to man beater, but they changed one route in the combo that made it deadly vs. zone by creating a triangle on the strongside that included both a horizontal stretch on the flat defender and a vertical stretch on said defender. They also blended together what was the original BYU "66" pass (their All Curl) with the BYU 67 pass (their three vertical pattern) so you would have a terrific pass that would work against all zones (Cov 2, Cov 3 and Quarters). They also took both of BYU's flood patterns, the strongside flood (65) and the weakside flood (69). They renumbered them in their offense and had the HB run an option route on their weakside flood. The weakside flood, known at UK, then T.T. and now W.V.U as "Y-Cross" was a big play waiting to happen and was very difficult for ILB's to defend because it started out looking alot like All-Curl and if they dropped too deep to choke the deep crossing route off, the TE could just sit down in the void. If he "got on top" of the MLB and made the deep cross, then the WLB would always be in a bind with the deep cross at 17-22 yards on top and the HB option route on the bottom. Whatever he does, he is wrong. The FS would also be neutralized by the outside WR's vertical. It is a beautiful three level stretch that has been a big gainer for over 20 years at various schools. Mumme and Leach expanded the BYU quick game which was the basic slant combos and hitch combos and they added the popular Y-Stick route which is prevalent in nearly all offenses. In 1997 and 1998 they ran Y-Stick so many times successfully with James Whalen (played for the Cowboys for awhile) and once teams adapted to try and overplay the stick, they added the Y-Corner route to take advantage of the overreaction. In 1998, Mumme added the "Shallow Crossing Series", which he learned from our very own Shanny. This was a great route that is still used by Air Raid teams today, including Dana Holgerson at West Virginia. Very, very versatile and great vs. all coverages, with simple rules to learn, but hard to defend.

At West Virginia, they are still runnign many of the same classic Air Raid concepts with Geno that Tim Couch ran 15 years ago. They still run the two old BYU flood routes (Y-Cross and Y-Sail) and the Shallow Crossing Series and Holgerson has also emphasized the four verticals route, which everyone runs, but they have tried to perfect it. They do not run as much of the horizontal stuff as was the case at UK (they don't rush Mesh much, except in the Red Zone), but alot of hte classic Air Raid stuff is still there (Stick is still there, Corner is still there). Holgerson has added things which the other two QBs Khan mentioned (Newton and Smith) ran alot in their offenses. We have to make a distinction between pass-first spread offenses (such as the UK/Texas Tech Air Raid) and run-first spread offenses (Urban Meyer Gun option). Smith ran literally the latter at Utah in 2003-2004, featuring the basic read option, the triple option, speed option, shovel option etc., whereas Newton ran a similar offense under Gus Malzahn at Auburn (actually Auburn's offense is not so much a style as it is a tempo, if you read Malzahn's book, his empahsis is not so much on plays, but rather how fast to play, no-huddle, etc.)

What Smith is doing now in the passing game is similar to Couch, and there is some component similar to the run stuff for Smith. Actually, what Holgerson has really done there is try to do both at once and by at once I mean in the same play. They have their "duel read" packages, where you take it a step further from simply passing from the spread when the box numbers arent favorable and running when the box numbers are favorable. Instead, what he is doing is having both a run play and a pass play in the same actual call. There is no need to audible or anything like that. The most famous example is the Y-Stick/Draw combo. They will block the draw up front, which naturally starts out looking like a pass block anyway and depending on the movement of the ILB after the snap, they hand off the draw or throw the Stick route. There is alot of duel read stuff they do. They have a pattern where the OL will all run block, three WRs will be on one side, two of which will block on the defenders one will be ready to catch a quick screen and on the single reciever side they will run an option route, so you have it all there, there's no audibling or anything so that there is no chance of being decieved by the defense. Either the defense will have two guys covering the three recievers which leaves the screen open, or they will only assign one corner to the option route with no deep safety, or they wont have people in the box, so you dont check to anything, its 3 rolled into 1, no communication needed. Just snap it and decide.

Sorry for rambling, but the point is Bob this is not an NFL style of offense, none of these are. The classic Air Raid is not NFL style, the run game aspect of what they do with Geno is not NFL style, and certainly the duel read stuff is not NFL style. Personally, I think it would be fun to try and incorporate some of these things into the NFL (you see Shanny doing some of Baylor's stuff with RGIII, at least trying as best he can to blend together his traditional attack with the RG3 college stuff), but certainly most NFL offenses will be much different for Geno and that means he won't be at a strategic advantage with these special systems like he was in college (and like Tim Couch benefitted from back in the day when no one else ran this and virtually no one, not even in the big bad SEC knew how to defend it. Look at the old Kentucky scores from the last 90s, they had weak talent and still put up alot of points on major powers...same kinda thing for Geno, although he does have some good WRs).

IMO, you would be better served drafting Tyler Wilson. Now he's NOT worthy of the No. 1 overall pick, but I think he is a first round QB talent. I think Geno isn't a first round QB talent. He's a good athlete, but I'm not seeing it as a pro QB. I'm not trying to rag on the Chiefs Bob, this is my honest opinion.
I agree with Tyler Wilson, but saying Geno Smith won't make it because he plays in the spread is simply not true. He's played in multiple systems and had great success in both.

The NFL is using the air raid a lot too. Look at what Shannahan is doing with RG3. Tom Brady air raided the Dolphins for 4 TD's and 500 yards a couple years ago and still uses it.
Peyton Manning even uses the air raid quite a bit. Even as a Colt.

It's used more in the NFL then people think.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:26 AM   #107
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I agree with Tyler Wilson, but saying Geno Smith won't make it because he plays in the spread is simply not true. He's played in multiple systems and had great success in both.

The NFL is using the air raid a lot too. Look at what Shannahan is doing with RG3. Tom Brady air raided the Dolphins for 4 TD's and 500 yards a couple years ago and still uses it.
Peyton Manning even uses the air raid quite a bit. Even as a Colt.

It's used more in the NFL then people think.
No, no one uses the "Air Raid" in the NFL. By "Air Raid" I dont merely mean passing alot, even though they pass alot. I mean a very specific system of plays and a very specific practice style and nothing more. The Air Raid is a system where they have a few core pass plays and they are very specific and they will run just those plays, out of about 4-6 formations, with some tags for each play to make it appear multiple and to give it some flexibility for anticipated defensive adjustments. You start out with a dozen or so things, give each 2-3 tags, and you have (what appears to the opponent) as 35 plays when its really only 12-15.

That's it, that's all they do, except for a quick game and a fairly expansive screen game. They will run their few things over and over, it doesnt matter what the coverage is. Because there is so little of it, Leach will rep each one HUNDREDS of times each week so that they know what to do against any concievable defense. It's like the old Green Bay Packers sweep from the 60s (or the Shanny inside zone and outside zone with the complementary playaction and rollout). That's their thing. They wont come in with a million things, they rep it until they are perfect at it and the muscle memory is there for each person. If you go back and look at the old Kentucky playbooks, you'll see they number about 50 pages for everything together. The NFL is the EXACT opposite of the Air Raid (its also the exact opposite of Norm Chow's BYU/NC State/USC offense...at least until Pete Carroll told him to totally change the run game and also to emphasize more of the stuff the NFL was doing in the Quick game in particular, there are articles on this on Chris Brown's blog among other places). The NFL, by and large, believes in having a million different run and pass plays (200-400 pages). Coach Leach will install his ENTIRE OFFENSE in 3 days. There is not a SINGLE NFL OFFENSE that can be installed in just 3 days. Not one. Manning's Colts offense, it is true, is more of an execution offense, where they have a much smaller core than usual and they work with far fewer formatoins than usual, but he has the freedom to check in and out of just about anything to just about anything within that core and much of the offense is from the LOS so as to eliminate tendencies. Still, it is not similar to the Air Raid because they aren't using the Air Raid's classic bread and butter plays and it still likely has quite a bit more volume. The Air Raid is also distinct because of its practice style. If you read any of the Tony Franklin System materials or anything of the like, there is a very distinct way of practicing, what to empahsize, what not to, how they do repetitions, how they do passing drills, what they do to "replace" the need for stretching etc. So no, its not the same at all.
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:17 AM   #108
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too bad geno can't make throws from under center. he'll never succeed in a pro set.

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Old 12-26-2012, 01:30 AM   #109
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too bad geno can't make throws from under center. he'll never succeed in a pro set.

What? Damnit Bob.

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Old 12-26-2012, 06:11 AM   #110
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Honestly, all the 1st round caliber QB's this year don't necessarily scream "Franchise QB" to me. Kinda like the 2011 draft when you had Newton, Gabbert, Locker, Ponder all go in the 1st. Newton has shown flashes, but the other three, two of them flat out stink and the other one, Locker, is meh so far.

As for the "spread", it is more about having multiple WR's/TE's to throw to, spreading the defense, creating a mismatch somewhere to get a guy open for a 7 yard gain or so.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:29 AM   #111
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:57 AM   #112
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too bad geno can't make throws from under center. he'll never succeed in a pro set.

He's staring his receiver down the whole time. That's an interception in the NFL.

I love how all your gifs are him doing things wrong: Throwing into tripple coverage when there is another guy wide open, staring down his receivers.

You can tell this dude has one read every play.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:19 PM   #113
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He's staring his receiver down the whole time. That's an interception in the NFL.
.
Wrong. The ball comes out of his hands in two seconds.

That's a great throw and shows that he's not just a spread QB, too.

Keep digging the hole. There are dozens and dozens of snaps of this kid going through more than one read but you're sticking your head in the sand. Probably because you're scared ****less of the Chiefs getting a franchise QB for once.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:24 PM   #114
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Sigh. Ok Bob lets wait to see where he is projected to go. I'll bet it's not in Round 1
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:31 PM   #115
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Geno sucks! I smell chiefs bust all over again!!! What a lousy QB year! And it had to be the chiefs picking #1!!! Hahahahaha that has to be some cosmic karma going for you guys!!!
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:36 PM   #116
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Plus dude,... Bob... you are the kiss of death for any of your player you start to rep! Anybody remember the Baldwin thread? What a complete fail. I can't remember a most incompetent franchise picking in the top 5. Let alone the first round. Keep it up Bob! Keep it up!!!
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:38 PM   #117
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No, no one uses the "Air Raid" in the NFL. By "Air Raid" I dont merely mean passing alot, even though they pass alot. I mean a very specific system of plays and a very specific practice style and nothing more. The Air Raid is a system where they have a few core pass plays and they are very specific and they will run just those plays, out of about 4-6 formations, with some tags for each play to make it appear multiple and to give it some flexibility for anticipated defensive adjustments. You start out with a dozen or so things, give each 2-3 tags, and you have (what appears to the opponent) as 35 plays when its really only 12-15.

That's it, that's all they do, except for a quick game and a fairly expansive screen game. They will run their few things over and over, it doesnt matter what the coverage is. Because there is so little of it, Leach will rep each one HUNDREDS of times each week so that they know what to do against any concievable defense. It's like the old Green Bay Packers sweep from the 60s (or the Shanny inside zone and outside zone with the complementary playaction and rollout). That's their thing. They wont come in with a million things, they rep it until they are perfect at it and the muscle memory is there for each person. If you go back and look at the old Kentucky playbooks, you'll see they number about 50 pages for everything together. The NFL is the EXACT opposite of the Air Raid (its also the exact opposite of Norm Chow's BYU/NC State/USC offense...at least until Pete Carroll told him to totally change the run game and also to emphasize more of the stuff the NFL was doing in the Quick game in particular, there are articles on this on Chris Brown's blog among other places). The NFL, by and large, believes in having a million different run and pass plays (200-400 pages). Coach Leach will install his ENTIRE OFFENSE in 3 days. There is not a SINGLE NFL OFFENSE that can be installed in just 3 days. Not one. Manning's Colts offense, it is true, is more of an execution offense, where they have a much smaller core than usual and they work with far fewer formatoins than usual, but he has the freedom to check in and out of just about anything to just about anything within that core and much of the offense is from the LOS so as to eliminate tendencies. Still, it is not similar to the Air Raid because they aren't using the Air Raid's classic bread and butter plays and it still likely has quite a bit more volume. The Air Raid is also distinct because of its practice style. If you read any of the Tony Franklin System materials or anything of the like, there is a very distinct way of practicing, what to empahsize, what not to, how they do repetitions, how they do passing drills, what they do to "replace" the need for stretching etc. So no, its not the same at all.
The NFL runs the Air Raid or variances of it. Especially the basic Air Raid concept as shown below..



They don't run it consistently as the main scheme, but it is a big part of different teams play books, like Peyton Manning's for example.






And Tom Brady. Pats use the Air Raid more than anyone.

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Old 12-26-2012, 12:38 PM   #118
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Sigh. Ok Bob lets wait to see where he is projected to go. I'll bet it's not in Round 1
Geno's projected to be the #1 pick currently. He will be a 1st round pick.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:45 PM   #119
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The NFL runs the Air Raid or variances of it. Especially the basic Air Raid concept as shown below..



They don't run it consistently as the main scheme, but it is a big part of different teams play books, like Peyton Manning's for example.






And Tom Brady. Pats use the Air Raid more than anyone.

Again no. The stuff you have cited are the Levels concept which was the classic play at Indy and you still see it in Denver and many places. The other stuff is also NFL stuff. Air Raiders don't use Levels. Everyone has a version of four verticals and smash but AR has a very specific version of four verts.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:47 PM   #120
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He's staring his receiver down the whole time. That's an interception in the NFL.

I love how all your gifs are him doing things wrong: Throwing into tripple coverage when there is another guy wide open, staring down his receivers.

You can tell this dude has one read every play.
Goes to his 2nd read and under pressure and makes a great throw.



He throws to his first read a lot (especially when he's down in the game) but there's no mistaken that he goes through his progressions quite a bit too.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:52 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by SoCalBronco View Post
Again no. The stuff you have cited are the Levels concept which was the classic play at Indy and you still see it in Denver and many places. The other stuff is also NFL stuff. Air Raiders don't use Levels. Everyone has a version of four verticals and smash but AR has a very specific version of four verts.
It's very similar to what Geno runs now and I have no doubt he could easily understand and run that offense efficiently.

The fact that he ran a pro style system for an entire year in college tells me he can learn multiple systems and run them well (had 24 TD's to 8 INT's with about 3,000 yards).

It's like people don't think Geno is smart enough to run a pro system or something, which is silly.
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:05 PM   #122
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It's very similar to what Geno runs now and I have no doubt he could easily understand and run that offense efficiently.

The fact that he ran a pro style system for an entire year in college tells me he can learn multiple systems and run them well (had 24 TD's to 8 INT's with about 3,000 yards).

It's like people don't think Geno is smart enough to run a pro system or something, which is silly.
Geno can run an offense... but is he worth the #1 pick? Hell to the no!
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:11 PM   #123
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Geno can run an offense... but is he worth the #1 pick? Hell to the no!
He's worth the #1 pick as much as Cam was.

Tell me what Cam did better than Geno coming out. I'll wait.
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:11 PM   #124
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Sigh. Ok Bob lets wait to see where he is projected to go. I'll bet it's not in Round 1
If the Chiefs don't take him the Jags or Raiders will. He's a top 5 pick, easy.

Multiple mocks have him going #1.
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:22 PM   #125
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Geno can run an offense... but is he worth the #1 pick? Hell to the no!
Neither was Cam Newton or RG3 at this point when they were prospects.
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