Does Shanahan make it through the season?

[ol#7]

Originally Posted by CEH

I tend to agree. Denver was never really a "viable" Super Bowl contender post '98.

All the playoff games on the road were not even competitive. Enjoyable maybe but a "viable" Super Bowl contender I would say no

Just cruise over to the Tebowmaina vs ManningMania thread to see how the arguments change depending on what you want to argue. In Shanny's case just getting to the playoffs as a wildcard team and never being competitive in any game on the road is OK but many to wait and see how the 2012 season turns out to decide which year is more enjoyable most likely because Denver was able to secure a home playoff game before being exposed on the road.

Even John Lynch said the 2005 season was "smoke and mirrors"
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=91651

I would expect a 13-3 team to build upon 2005 but

2006 - Lost to the 6 win 49ers at home with a chance to go to the playoffs
2007 - Missed playoffs
2008 - Epic 3 game lead blown and a loss to the 6 win Bills team at home followed by what Shanny knew was a compete mismatch and 52 point beatdown in SD

So depending on how you want to judge a team defines Shanny's success post '98

Getting into the playoffs is enjoyable . Getting "blowed out" is not and I know Elway and Bowlen are not in this for the fun of it

2005 was smoke and mirrors...and Yet we would have been favored in the SB over the Seahawks. Hell, we would have beaten the Seahawks. We were smoke and mirrors because of the Offense though. Rod Smith had almost nothing left and was still our best WR, an aging Mike Anderson on his second go round and Tatum Bell amassing over 2k yards...while impressive hardly a scary threat to anyone.

But some of the arguments your making is luck of the draw. They didn't get blown out by the Ravens on the road, and many (myself included) thought we were the 2nd best team in the NFL that year going into the playoffs.

2006 we had Al Wilson lining up without a working neck against the 49ers in a must win game...after winning a must win game against the Bengals the week before. Sometimes teams play spoiler (see Saints v Dallas this last week).

Then we had the misfortune to run into Manning's Colts a few times. We could have beaten about anyone else in the conference those years. Hell we traded Portis for Champ and drafted D.Will as a result of those games in order to match up, which lead up to our high water mark in 05, before trying to rebuild on the fly.

That 3 game slide...the Only game they actually blew was against Buffalo. We got beat by a pretty damn good Panthers team on the road, and again had to travel to SD to end the year which was a set up from the moment Hochuli blew his wistle. Expectations got out of control for a young team that was a year away because the division was bad. If either Stokely holds onto the ball in the endzone or Bowe recovers an onside kick, this isn't even up for discussion.

I am not even sure what point we are arguing. Denver tried to rebuild post SB years while remaining competitive. They had mixed results, but were where they were supposed to be most years, and in the hunt, nearly missing out on a 3rd SB. To say they weren't legitimate SB contenders...what does that mean? Were the 9-7 Giants (who needed help to make the playoffs), the Cardinals, Titans (music city miracle), Ravens (champ missed pick), young Brady led Pats, the Rex Grossman led Bears, Hasselbecks Seahawks, really more legitimate title contenders than Denver during this period?

[Kaylore]

I have mixed feelings on Shanahan. I think he's a very good coach. I think he looked worse than he was the last decade because he stopped being able to use a HOF QB and TD. The thing is that almost every head coach looks that way when they lose those guys.

I loved Shanahan the coach. He WAS the Broncos to me. It was even mentioned "Mike Shanahan's Broncos." I liked his predictable answers in press conferences. I liked his commercials on the local radio. I liked how he could take any scrub and scheme them into the top third in the league at what they do. Shanahan was routinely called the hardest coach to game plan for. He even have advice to some of our coordinators for things that can help confuse QB's. There is no question in my mind that Shanahan is still one of the greatest NFL football minds working right now.

Shanahan the GM, on the other hand is another story. His draft picks were, for the most part, poor. He was a victim of his own success. Because he could take any guy on offense and make them at least decent, there were a lot of teams that made the wild card slot that would have been 6 win teams on if they were being coached by most of the other coaches in the league. This would leave us fairly distantly out of reach of the real blue-chip players every year. Consider it took McDaniels to give us Von Miller!

A lot of his coaching hires were rooted in nepotism and personal familiarity. Sometimes it worked out, like with Bates as OC. Sometimes it was a disaster, like with Slowick and son-of-slowick. SoCal thinks that Bowlen held money back from Shanny. Everyone but him knows that's not the case. I do think Ted Sundquist's fail quotient was quite large and may have negatively impacted a lot of what he did, however. It's tough to prove because no one knows where Ted began and Shanny ended, and Shanahan had carte blance, so at the end of the day the buck stopped with him, but that's my own personal theory.

Shanahan would throw money at marginal players in hopes of turning them into great players. He would take too many chances on locker room cancers and it would toxify the locker room. He was a risk taker, but they often didn't work out. It's one of the reasons he is a great play-caller. He was very good at trades, which makes sense. He would polish up some turds and then sell his pretend porceline and get great value in return. He also was one of the best at signing and developing undrafted rookies. Remember this guy wanted Tony Romo. However the draft free agency issues doomed him as a GM.

Free agency as a viable way to get "great" players all but died after 2002 when the cap grew so much that every team had the room to sign their good draft picks. We rarely had any good draft picks so we had to look elsewhere. I knew that in order for the Broncos to get out of their rut, Shanahan the GM would have to go.

I'm someone that believed, as Bowlen said, the divorce will be best for both parties. Shanahan was able to get away from his game and reflect. Now he has two possible franchise QB's (not saying they're the greatest, just that they can be franchise QB's - especially for Shanahan) and is the only team in that whole division who seems to have a clear identity and direction. I don't believe Shanahan would make the HOF today if he retired. But if he makes it to another SB, or puts together a five year stretch of 9-12 wins with the Skins, I think he gets in. I will always love and root for Shanahan. I hate the guy he works for, but am willing to look past that to Shanny succeed.

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Laughable take considering the Broncos set NFL records in yards, points, rushing, etc during the post Elway era. Extra laughable considering the Broncos were top 5 in win % during the post Elway era. Extra laughable considering the Broncos made an AFCCG appearance less than 3 years before the fire. Extra laughable considering he dragged the youngest team in the NFL with record breaking amount of RB injuries to missing the playoffs by a tie-breaker.

In conclusion: Laughable.

And how many playoff wins again?

[DENVERDUI55]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

I've said many times I think it should be Arians/Pagano. It's many many NFL circles nominating Shanahan, not me.

Btw, remember claiming he'd never coach in the NFL again? Nice work per usual. Right there with Orton going to the pro bowl.

They said on sportscenter this am that Arians is likely candidate with Leslie Frazier not far behind. Nothing on shanny but what does that award mean down the road really?

[CEH]

Originally Posted by ol#7

2005 was smoke and mirrors...and Yet we would have been favored in the SB over the Seahawks. Hell, we would have beaten the Seahawks. We were smoke and mirrors because of the Offense though. Rod Smith had almost nothing left and was still our best WR, an aging Mike Anderson on his second go round and Tatum Bell amassing over 2k yards...while impressive hardly a scary threat to anyone.

But some of the arguments your making is luck of the draw. They didn't get blown out by the Ravens on the road, and many (myself included) thought we were the 2nd best team in the NFL that year going into the playoffs.

2006 we had Al Wilson lining up without a working neck against the 49ers in a must win game...after winning a must win game against the Bengals the week before. Sometimes teams play spoiler (see Saints v Dallas this last week).

Then we had the misfortune to run into Manning's Colts a few times. We could have beaten about anyone else in the conference those years. Hell we traded Portis for Champ and drafted D.Will as a result of those games in order to match up, which lead up to our high water mark in 05, before trying to rebuild on the fly.

That 3 game slide...the Only game they actually blew was against Buffalo. We got beat by a pretty damn good Panthers team on the road, and again had to travel to SD to end the year which was a set up from the moment Hochuli blew his wistle. Expectations got out of control for a young team that was a year away because the division was bad. If either Stokely holds onto the ball in the endzone or Bowe recovers an onside kick, this isn't even up for discussion.

I am not even sure what point we are arguing. Denver tried to rebuild post SB years while remaining competitive. They had mixed results, but were where they were supposed to be most years, and in the hunt, nearly missing out on a 3rd SB. To say they weren't legitimate SB contenders...what does that mean? Were the 9-7 Giants (who needed help to make the playoffs), the Cardinals, Titans (music city miracle), Ravens (champ missed pick), young Brady led Pats, the Rex Grossman led Bears, Hasselbecks Seahawks, really more legitimate title contenders than Denver during this period?

It's a results oriented business I guess is what I'm arguing

My view of Mike has changed since 2008 from a stats oriented view like I think a lot still view Mike from to a results oriented view and I can't prove anything but my view of Mike after 99 was a guy who just cared about that 3rd ring so he could be in that elusive group and chased it for 9 years and was "always a year way"

Build on 2005 and take the next step. Hell build on 2000 and take the next step, build on 2003 and take the next step.


Teams back into the playoffs all the time. A Super Bowl contender has the ability to go on the road and win. Can you really say that about any team Denver took on the road in the 2000's.His main flaw was he was never able to win the AFCW except for 2005 and guess what when they did they won a playoff game.
Win the West and maybe miss or postpone playing Manning. San Diego managed to play well against Manning home or away

GB, NYG, Pitts, even the defense-less Cardinals did it on the road.

Forget Bowe. Beat Buff at home. Beat SF at home. Even the Cincy game you reference in 2006 they needed a missed xtra point to win. Talk about luck

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

And how many playoff wins again?

Ah, the old "I've been demolished so I'll use this intellectually dishonest argument to disguise my clear incompetence". Regardless, to answer your question: As many as anyone other than Tom Coughlin has against the Beli/Brady Patriots, including Tom Brady's first ever post-season loss and the slaying of a dynasty.

In conclusion: Still laughable.

Originally Posted by DENVERDUI55

They said on sportscenter this am that Arians is likely candidate with Leslie Frazier not far behind. Nothing on shanny but what does that award mean down the road really?

Leslie ****ing Frazier? Are you ****ting me? He wouldn't crack my top 5!

I'd say:

1. Arians/Pagano
2. Carroll (<--grew up great friends with his nephew, love Pete Carroll)
3. Shanahan
4. Mike Smith (best record and all, atm at least)
5. Fischer
5.

[CEH]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Ah, the old "I've been demolished so I'll use this intellectually dishonest argument to disguise my clear incompetence". Regardless, to answer your question: As many as anyone other than Tom Coughlin has against the Beli/Brady Patriots, including Tom Brady's first ever post-season loss and the slaying of a dynasty.

In conclusion: Still laughable.



Leslie ****ing Frazier? Are you ****ting me? He wouldn't crack my top 5!

I'd say:

1. Arians/Pagano
2. Carroll (<--grew up great friends with his nephew, love Pete Carroll)
3. Shanahan
4. Mike Smith (best record and all, atm at least)
5. Fischer
5.

IMO, That's about right. I'm leaning towards Carroll who took a 3rd round QB and made the leap to start him over the FA QB they brought in. Indy was a 2 win team last year which is hard to ignore but Luck by all account is a top 10 QB right now and was on the verge of top 10 even before taking a snap. Arians taking over has his advantages as well. Who saw Wilson coming in and doing what he is doing for SEA

Be interesting to see who wins it.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by CEH

IMO, That's about right. I'm leaning towards Carroll who took a 3rd round QB and made the leap to start him over the FA QB they brought in. Indy was a 2 win team last year which is hard to ignore but Luck by all account is a top 10 QB right now and was on the verge of top 10 even before taking a snap. Arians taking over has his advantages as well. Who saw Wilson coming in and doing what he is doing for SEA

Be interesting to see who wins it.

...well, "leap" probably isn't the word I'd use. Flynn got hurt and Russell got a TON of PS playing time as the starter and really showed he could get it done.

[Kaylore]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

I'd say:

1. Arians/Pagano
2. Carroll (<--grew up great friends with his nephew, love Pete Carroll)
3. Shanahan
4. Mike Smith (best record and all, atm at least)
5. Fischer
5.

The one on here I disagree with is Mike Smith. His team is loaded with talent. If he's on there, then Fox has to be number six.

Honestly Arians deserves it, even if he was acting head coach. The circumstances he took over, in a division with the Texans and playing some really good opponents with a rookie QB - he's done an amazing job.

Carroll and Shanny deserve props, though I'd reverse Shanny with Carroll because Shanahan lost a bunch of stars at the beginning of the season and was able to win big games with two different rookie QB's. The Seahawk defense and several pieces were already in place before this year.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

The one on here I disagree with is Mike Smith. His team is loaded with talent. If he's on there, then Fox has to be number six.

Honestly Arians deserves it, even if he was acting head coach. The circumstances he took over, in a division with the Texans and playing some really good opponents with a rookie QB - he's done an amazing job.

Carroll and Shanny deserve props, though I'd reverse Shanny with Carroll because Shanahan lost a bunch of stars at the beginning of the season and was able to win big games with two different rookie QB's. The Seahawk defense and several pieces were already in place before this year.

I'd like to disagree with Mike Smith, but I feel like I finally HAVE to give those overrated ****heads some credit. I disagree about their talent level, good receiving weapons and then a lot of "meh", imo. And they're in the first year with Koetter at OC. I promise I despise doing it, but Mike Smith deserves some credit for potentially finishing the season at the very top of the league standings.

You make a compelling case for Shanahan being above Carroll. I think because I expect him to be godlike on an annual basis that Carroll's job in Seattle was more surprising to me.

[TheReverend]

Btw dude, go check out his nephew on my facebook... crazy strong bloodline, huh? Even his niece has the same face.

[Kaylore]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

I'd like to disagree with Mike Smith, but I feel like I finally HAVE to give those overrated ****heads some credit. I disagree about their talent level, good receiving weapons and then a lot of "meh", imo. And they're in the first year with Koetter at OC. I promise I despise doing it, but Mike Smith deserves some credit for potentially finishing the season at the very top of the league standings.

You make a compelling case for Shanahan being above Carroll. I think because I expect him to be godlike on an annual basis that Carroll's job in Seattle was more surprising to me.

Your argument for why Leslie Frazier deserves no part of it is another reason why Mike Smith can suck my balls. The priciple is the same to me. If anything, Fox/Del Rio is ahead of Smith because of the defensive turnaround. And I'm not arguing for either one to be even mentioned.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

Your argument for why Leslie Frazier deserves no part of it is another reason why Mike Smith can suck my balls. The priciple is the same to me. If anything, Fox/Del Rio is ahead of Smith because of the defensive turnaround. And I'm not arguing for either one to be even mentioned.

I've got no issue with Fox getting some props, but I do think it's cheapened by Manning. Let's be real, Matt Ryan is only a smidge better than Flacco.

[Kaylore]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

I've got no issue with Fox getting some props, but I do think it's cheapened by Manning. Let's be real, Matt Ryan is only a smidge better than Flacco.

Normally I'd agree, but Flacco has not played well in big situations and at times looked bad this year. Maybe more importantly, Flacco sucking has cost the team wins. Ryan had a couple of pretty bad games but still found a way to win. I'm not big on either one, but I would say Ryan has pulled away from Flacco - at least this year. I am aware that Ryans Receivers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Flacco's, though.

Mike Smith annoys the crap out of me, though. He reminds me of the dad from Danger Bay - in a bad way.

[Action]

Originally Posted by ol#7

You said it was laughable and that Denver never put together a team with a chance of going anywhere after 2000. Patently false as we hosted the AFCCG in 2005 and were a viable threat a number of other years. You either hate the Broncos/Love McDanies or have no clue what the hell your talking about.

What the hell does Mcdaniels have to do with anything? I swear, you people are the only people who bring him up. I only contribute to the conversation he's already in it, other than that he's on your minds more than mine...and thats sad.

The Defense went into decline after 2006 due to Al Wilson's injury. Until then, Denver's D was pretty respectable. Shanny chose to rebuild the offense first, and had it where he wanted it. The untimely death of an emerging star CB opposite Champ sure didn't help either.

You mean until Shanny started hiring people incapable of coaching defenses. Darrant Williams was vastly overrated as a DB considering he was not very good in coverage. He was a great tackler though. RIP.

Along with that, Shanny was incapable of putting any NFL-caliber personel together on defense.

Everyone rides that 1 playoff win line too much. Just how many franchise playoff wins did Denver have before Elway got here? (2). That was in 24 years. STFU with that. Making the playoffs and doing something when you get there is harder than you think.

There's really no excuse for 1 playoff win in a decade. Yeah, it's tough, but that doesn't mean you aren't expected to do it. Imagine if any other franchise like the Steelers or Patriots rode your mentality. Shanny had full control, not like he was working under anyone.

We were in the mix after losing multiple HOF'ers from our B2B championship teams. Unlike KFC, Denver never opened a season during that period with the fans thinking we had no shot, unlike the 2 years when Your Boy Josh was here. Vegas oddsmakers backed up that perception. Denver was always veiwed as a threat during that period.

Denver always had a great PR team creating a perception we had a chance. The fact of the matter is, we didn't. We were always too soft on defense and never played consistently... combine that in with the fact that we had a coach that didn't emphasize any sort of stretching and let star plays take plays/days off at their leisure.

Again bringing up McDaniels... why is he on your mind so much?

WTF did Lenny Walls ever do to you? Both walls and Herndon were undrafted FA's. WTF do you want from them? They both hung around a few years on other NFL squads after leaving Denver.

I don't want anything from them, the fact that the Broncos fielded them as starters is hilarious.

Funny also that you ride the 2nd in yards 16th in points remark. Everyone who does that ignores the 8 RB's we had on IR that year. You know what you need in the Red Zone? A RB to punch it in.

Tell that to the Saints. The #1 red zone team in the league. I imagine you only watch Broncos football you know, considering, you're such a great Broncos fan. Disregard the fact that I've watched every second of every down this year though.

You sir/madame post like a fan from another team. Calling yourself a Bronco fan is what is laughable.

So being a Broncos fan means I have blind, irrational viewpoints as yourself? If that's what it means, then yeah, I'm not a Broncos fan

Let's be honest Shanny's whole football program time was up here. People make excuse for injuries, but there is something behind that too. All teams DEAL with injuries. All of them. But the fact is, Shanny never had a strength/condition program that was up to par. Champ Bailey was injured all the damn time when Shanny was here... and that's just 1 player. Combine that with the fact that there was no sort of next man up mentality... more of a, we'll look for someone on FA mentality.

Are people really surprised there are injuries to his Redskins team? I mean he doesn't prepare them for a physical season.

Point in case, look at other teams...specifically the Niners. 2 straight years and they've had minimal injuries and really, lost no starters. Does it require luck? Yes. But it there is also things you can do to increase the favor in your odds.

[Action]

If there is any doubt, go ahead and go back to the 2007 or 2008 roster of the Denver Broncos. Check out some of the careers of the players on the teams after they left the team... better yet, check if even had one.

You really shouldn't say anything else until you can defend this fact alone.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Action

Tell that to the Saints. The #1 red zone team in the league. I imagine you only watch Broncos football you know, considering, you're such a great Broncos fan. Disregard the fact that I've watched every second of every down this year though.

Blatantly obvious bull**** claim. Pretty standard from you, though.

To nitpick, they're not #1 in RZ eff %, NE is and NO is #2. Regardless, I suppose by your statement you missed that NO's RBs have scored 17 TDs? Or how they're a full half yard per carry better than us rushing the ball and have a full 4 really talented backs?

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Action

If there is any doubt, go ahead and go back to the 2007 or 2008 roster of the Denver Broncos. Check out some of the careers of the players on the teams after they left the team... better yet, check if even had one.

You really shouldn't say anything else until you can defend this fact alone.

Another dip**** statement. Right now it's looking like Champs a HoF lock, with Marshall well on his way, and Clady likely to get there if he stays healthy as well, with Elvis a potential candidate as well. Then you have probowl tier guys like Woodyard, Cutler, Kuper also on the roster. Then you have the next tier of extremely solid players like DJ, Lichtensteiger, Polumbus, Tyson Clabo and Ryan Harris. And I'm not even getting into quality role player guys like Scheffler

In fact, let's play a game. You show me a roster turned over after a big coaching change several years ago with more players still in the league and ones that are remotely NEAR this quality of talent.

Spoiler alert: You can't. You just regurgitate bull**** by yelling about fringe depth and PS players.

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Ah, the old "I've been demolished so I'll use this intellectually dishonest argument to disguise my clear incompetence". Regardless, to answer your question: As many as anyone other than Tom Coughlin has against the Beli/Brady Patriots, including Tom Brady's first ever post-season loss and the slaying of a dynasty.

In conclusion: Still laughable.

Translation: 1 playoff win post Elway.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

Translation: 1 playoff win post Elway.

Exactly. You need to hide from all forms of context just to attempt to support your laughable 'argument'

[baja]

Let's be honest Shanny's whole football program time was up here. People make excuse for injuries, but there is something behind that too. All teams DEAL with injuries. All of them. But the fact is, Shanny never had a strength/condition program that was up to par. Champ Bailey was injured all the damn time when Shanny was here... and that's just 1 player. Combine that with the fact that there was no sort of next man up mentality... more of a, we'll look for someone on FA mentality.

Are people really surprised there are injuries to his Redskins team? I mean he doesn't prepare them for a physical season.

This is something that has been overlooked for years. Ever since Mike left and Tuten was fired the ligament injuries have been cut way back and injuries in general seem to be less. It would be good to see some actual stats on this but I don't think they are kept.

[DENVERDUI55]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Leslie ****ing Frazier? Are you ****ting me? He wouldn't crack my top 5!

I'd say:

1. Arians/Pagano
2. Carroll (<--grew up great friends with his nephew, love Pete Carroll)
3. Shanahan
4. Mike Smith (best record and all, atm at least)
5. Fischer
5.

I agree and your list is good. I think after the colts HC duo or whoever they give it too its all trivial. I don't see anyway you could give the award to someone else that took a 2 win team to playoffs with a rookie qb.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by DENVERDUI55

I agree and your list is good. I think after the colts HC duo or whoever they give it too its all trivial. I don't see anyway you could give the award to someone else that took a 2 win team to playoffs with a rookie qb.

Kahn made a really good case for Shanahan considering the injury bug they've battled, but Indy counters that with a ton of roster turnover.

... But Wash has had a WAY tougher schedule to slog through.

Edge still to Arians and Pagano because of the significant health adversity with his cancer and the way they've turned it into a rallying point and national inspiration.

[R8R H8R]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

I'd say:

1. Arians/Pagano
2. Carroll (<--grew up great friends with his nephew, love Pete Carroll)
3. Shanahan
4. Mike Smith (best record and all, atm at least)
5. Fischer
5.

I agree with your top 3, but would probably flip Carroll with Arians. However, Arians might very well get it because of the very obvious sentimental aspect to the story. But I think Carroll deserves it for building a SB contender with a rookie that was not on anybody's list for potential OROY in September. Yet, he is now in the discussion.

[Bacchus]

how is Fox not on the list?