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Old 12-21-2012, 01:03 PM   #176
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Just wondering Kyle... are you a "Quarterback?"

Cuz if you are, I'm not sure if anyone really needs one of those.
HURR DURR.

Once again, your funny-making intellect is beyond anyone's wildest imagination. Feel free to answer the very honest question, though.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:09 PM   #177
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If anybody cares, the Montreal Alouettes hold the negotiating rights for Tebow in the CFL. Theismann says he wouldn't make it in the CFL either. I guess you have to be able to throw in that league as well. Who knew?
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:13 PM   #178
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Warren Moon - undrafted, refused to switch positions. Now in the Hall of Fame.

Every team in the NFL passed on Joe Montana twice.

Joey Porter was a practice squader for the Steelers, they cut him, the Ravens picked him up, cut him again, and then he wound up back with the Steelers. He since has won DPOY.

Arian Foster was an undrafted FA, he's now one of the best backs in the NFL.

Shannon Sharpe was a late 7th round pick.

The vast majority of the Broncos best offensive line players during Shanahan's tenure were late rounders and undrafted FAs.

Terrell Davis was a 7th rounder, just like Sharpe. That means ever team passed at least six times.

Tom Brady - also passed on nearly half a dozen times by every team.

Dude, this isn't even hard. We're talking about a league where Tim Couch was a former first overall pick, followed up by Akili Smith. The NFL talent evaluation process is a massive crap shoot.





1. In most professions the level of failure that GMs in the NFL show would be grounds for termination at a minimum, incarceration in some. They are far from infallible, most of them are pulling **** from their asses.

2. I'm a strong believer in what John Madden once said when asked about how great a "genius" Bill Belichick is - that if it wasn't for the NFL these guys would be teaching PE, so it's pretty hard to call 'em a genius when that's the alternative.

A success rate a little better than 50/50 on employee evaluation would be shockingly awful in most circles of highly skilled professionals. That's the average first round success rate for GMs in the NFL.


Cam Newton plays in an incredibly friendly offense to his (and Tim Tebow's) skill set, has been given all the snaps since day one, and still hasn't won ****.

Tim Tebow has been a square peg pounded into round holes from day one and he's got a division title and playoff win to his credit.

Seriously, how any Bronco fan could see last year's Wild Card round playoff game and not think that Tebow has real talent is absolutely beyond me. He carried us to a win over one of the best teams in the NFL that day with big play after big play.

The only difference between Tebow and his peer group is that the more "traditional" passer types have been allowed a much greater degree of freedom to fail as a passer. You jump on Tebow for having a 50% completion rate but that ignores:
Sam Bradford having a 53% completion rate in year two with the Rams.
Eli Manning having a 48.2% completion rate his first 9 games as a rookie and only a 52.8% completion rate in 16 games as a second year QB.
Peyton Manning only completed 56.7% of his passes as a rookie over 16 games.
Steve Young was a 53% or worse passer his first four seasons, which totaled over 30 games played.
Drew Brees was only a 55% passer his rookie season.

Needless to say, I could continue. Last season Tebow wasn't even allowed to try a real NFL offense because this staff had zero faith in him and were unwilling to even try. The previous season he had three starts against real NFL defenses that were actual real passing situations and he had a 50% completion rate, not wildly worse than many good NFL QBs today. That was a dumped into the deep end of the pool scenario with very little prep, while most of the seasons above came from QBs who had entire off-seasons of preparation with at least half, if not all, of the practice reps.

Tebow has never gotten a shot because his throwing motion is awkward, that is compounded further by him being left handed, and he spent his time in college being utilized in a spread option offense that relied heavily on his legs. Other than that its mostly negative image tied to his fan base, not his talent level.

Regardless, that is all about Tebow the passer. This thread is about Tebow the football player, being utilized in a different role. In said different role Tebow could be one of the most dynamic ball carriers in the NFL TODAY. Not a few years from now after being groomed, but next Sunday.

Mike Alstott was a very productive ball carrier. Jerome Bettis is a borderline HoF candidate. Tim Tebow has the size and power of either one of them. He could be an incredibly capable running back while his passing is developed in the off-season. If it never materializes then so be it, but he'd still be a valuable contributor to any team willing to find ways to put the ball in his hands.
All your examples doesn't bode well mr Teblow. What do you think the percentage of those players are that made it against odds? Less than 1 percent probably? The QB's you list could at least throw the ball. Teblow doesn't even throw the ball as well as Randle El did. Get over it he is not a qb and he is too selfish to swap to RB.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:13 PM   #179
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Still wondering what it will take for the levy to break and for Drek to see what 100% of GMs in the league see in Tim Tebow: A non-quarterback.
If I had the level of narrow minded incompetence most NFL GMs have with regards to their job I'd be in prison now for gross negligence and public endangerment. So sorry if I have a hard time trusting people who think failing only slightly less than half the time on personnel hires is acceptable.

I got a pocket full of coins with damn near the same reliability.

Also, to continue this discussion - Again, the point of this thread isn't Tebow as a quarterback (which I've made clear I think people dismiss far too quickly but is an aside) its about Tebow the football player. The fact that teams aren't chomping at the bit to bring him in and move him to HB or FB only further proves my point that most NFL GMs are too worried about their own job security to perform well. Tim Tebow if nothing else would be a standout situational ball carrier for any team. The complete unwillingness to bridge the gap with Tim by having him play that role while being groomed as a QB is proof enough that most NFL decision makers are about as capable of reasonable negotiation/management as the U.S. House of Congress.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:15 PM   #180
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HURR DURR.

Once again, your funny-making intellect is beyond anyone's wildest imagination. Feel free to answer the very honest question, though.
Honest question? Honest?

We started a Non-Quarterback at Quarterback for 13 games last season?

A Non-Quarterback threw for 316 yards against the Pittsburgh Steelers?

Heh. Honest. But you still haven't answered my "honest" question. Are you an NFL QB? Is Kyle the prototype Timmy should aspire to?
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:17 PM   #181
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Drek might be my favorite poster on the Mane, but he's so off on Tebow it's bewildering. The same illness effected Rev and Dedhed, among many others, but they've quietly backed away from their once delusional support for the Ultimate Teammate. Within a year I don't think there will be anybody left in the Tebow fanclub.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:20 PM   #182
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If I had the level of narrow minded incompetence most NFL GMs have with regards to their job I'd be in prison now for gross negligence and public endangerment. So sorry if I have a hard time trusting people who think failing only slightly less than half the time on personnel hires is acceptable.

I got a pocket full of coins with damn near the same reliability.

Also, to continue this discussion - Again, the point of this thread isn't Tebow as a quarterback (which I've made clear I think people dismiss far too quickly but is an aside) its about Tebow the football player. The fact that teams aren't chomping at the bit to bring him in and move him to HB or FB only further proves my point that most NFL GMs are too worried about their own job security to perform well. Tim Tebow if nothing else would be a standout situational ball carrier for any team. The complete unwillingness to bridge the gap with Tim by having him play that role while being groomed as a QB is proof enough that most NFL decision makers are about as capable of reasonable negotiation/management as the U.S. House of Congress.
I understand what you're saying here, all of it. I really do.

However, you also claimed that it was a 1:1 ratio between Tebow:Osweiler. Meaning that you still see him as a quarterback at this level. What I'm asking is what it will take for you give up the ghost. Dumped from three teams? Four? Five? Sub-50% completions for X number of seasons in a row?

I like your posts, and you know more football than pretty much any of the goofballs on this site. I'm just baffled that you would have this opinion of Tebow, that he can still be a legitimate, consistently effective passer on a pro team in spite of the facts pointing a different direction. It simply astounds me, because you don't seem like the type to get swept up in the "he's such a good guy/hard worker" absurdity that colors much of the pro-Tebow debate.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:22 PM   #183
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Honest question? Honest?

We started a Non-Quarterback at Quarterback for 13 games last season?

A Non-Quarterback threw for 316 yards against the Pittsburgh Steelers?

Heh. Honest. But you still haven't answered my "honest" question. Are you an NFL QB? Is Kyle the prototype Timmy should aspire to?
Your question was ****ing retarded. As are 98% of your posts.

"Are you a quarterback?!?" No, I'm a consultant.

Are you actually Beavis? That's just as honest a question.

Kyle Orton isn't involved in this debate whatsoever. Your attempt at trolling has been denied.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:24 PM   #184
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He threw for 316 yards, 2 touchdowns, and a QB rating of 125.6 against that year's best defense. It wasn't just one good play.

And this all out attempt to stop the run you cite as the reason for that still allowed Tebow to run for 50 yards and a touchdown.

So he basically demolished the best defense in the league that year short his #2 WR and best offensive lineman, in only his 15th start in the NFL, period.

Yeah. Strong argument you got there.
Well, if they expected Tebow to pass, one would think their DC would have had someone covering Thomas.

And they did need to load up to stop the run since 33 running plays were called.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:24 PM   #185
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Gosh enjolras haven't you read this thread it has been determined by the experts on the OM that is an utterly ridiculous idea. It has been dismissed out of hand.
OK genius....you explain how he's going to make a good to great TE starting from scratch when he sucks at playing QB...a position he's played since his peewee days

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Old 12-21-2012, 01:25 PM   #186
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Tim Tebow reminds me of Eric Crouch, both won't give up their dreams of being a QB someday.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:26 PM   #187
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316 yards... 80 of which came on one play.

/shrug
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:28 PM   #188
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316 yards... 80 of which came on one play.

/shrug
Lots of QBs throw for over 300 yards, some even do it in just 4 quarters of play.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:28 PM   #189
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You said trade for him with a 4th and 6th. You didn't say if he was released.
Tebow isn't giving up the rock to be a TE just yet. Until then, he won't be in Denver.
hy·po·thet·i·cal
/ˌhīpəˈTHetikəl/
Adjective
Of, based on, or serving as a hypothesis.
Noun
A hypothetical proposition or statement: "Flynn talked in hypotheticals, tossing what-if scenarios to Kernaghan".
Synonyms
hypothetic - conjectural - presumptive


You know the thing many board discussions are based on..
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:37 PM   #190
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Your question was ****ing retarded. As are 98% of your posts.

"Are you a quarterback?!?" No, I'm a consultant.

Are you actually Beavis? That's just as honest a question.

Kyle Orton isn't involved in this debate whatsoever. Your attempt at trolling has been denied.
Let me further draw the parallel for you, Kyle.

Timmy's making $2 million base this year. You're making $900k.

The Broncos received a 4th and 6th round pick in exchange for Timmy in the offseason, because Peyton Manning signed as their starting QB. The Broncos cut you and ate part of your remaining salary just to get you out of their sight, while that other "non-quarterback" was busy playing quarterback.

I think if we're calling in the "Judgement of NFL GMs" card, the one thing that we'd have to say is that if Timmy's not a QB, there's no chance in hell Kyle Orton is.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:49 PM   #191
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Tebow needs to learn that only starters get press conferences and you become starter by EARNING the job he will be a failure in the NFL.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:51 PM   #192
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Ok, prove it.

Tim Tebow in college never had a season below a 64.4% completion rate and that was the year with his fewest pass attempts (298). His final season he completed 67.8% of his passes, on 314 attempts. That's more passes than a lot of rookie QBs make in a 16 game rookie season, so it's not that his college offense reduced his attempts via having him tuck and run repeatedly.

So what suddenly changed to where he can't complete passes in the NFL? Every QB upon entering the NFL hits a rough transition, primarily in their ability to complete passes. This is why most QB coaches will tell you it takes a good 20 games in the NFL for a young QB to adapt.

Tebow hasn't gotten 10 games where he's been allowed to actually throw the football with regularity and adapt to the NFL game. You say they dumbed down the offense last season because Tebow couldn't handle it but his completion percentage still went up as the season went on and his best games were the ones where he was allowed to throw with regularity. So I'd say last year's offense was the coaching staff dumbing down the offense due to their own insecurity about letting Tebow throw and therefore turning it into a self fulfilling prophecy.

What former first round QB has never been given a full off-season of preparation as the #1 starter in his entire career? I can't think of many, other than Tebow.

What former first round QB was moved off his drafting team before he even logged 16 starts? Again, not many other than Tebow.

So how has he been babied? All I see is a bunch of stubborn coaches refusing to give Tebow a chance because he's not their guy or doesn't fit their exact definition of what they want at QB.

If Tebow had gone to a team that didn't replace the GM and HC that brought him in before his first year was even over he might have gotten a real chance to develop and learn on the job, like most first round QBs. Instead he quickly became the previous regime's guy and was shuttled out of town at the first real opportunity. Since then he's been marked as damaged goods.

Meanwhile Andrew "The Savior" Luck is posting a whopping 54% completion rate and a QB rating on par with Tebow's career QBR, but he "wins games" so he's in ROY contention. Tebow did the same thing after being spotted a 1-5 start but he's been summarily dismissed. See the double standard? Its gratuitous over-weighting of the eye test and not paying attention to the outcomes.

Baseball had this same problem not too long ago. Kevin Youkilis didn't get a real shot in the majors until his mid-20's despite setting the all time minor league hit streak record because he didn't look like a conventional baseball player. He became a star, along with tons of other people scouts hated but who had valuable baseball skills. Unlike baseball there is no easy way to quantify all the skills that it takes to play football, since there are no true one on one match ups to isolate data points.

Now to clarify, I think there is a very good chance that even given a real shot to start at QB Tim Tebow would never amount to a good NFL QB. That is a very real outcome. But Tim Tebow is already a damn good football player, at least when he's got the ball and a lane to run in. So I just don't get why teams are so unwilling to work on the former in exchange for reaping the current profits of the later. Its not like you ever really need to let him start if you don't think he's developed any as a passer in two or three years, but the upside if he does is pretty tremendous. Meanwhile he's an elite power back like very few others.

I never got past your first 2 paragraphs. I don't need to see 20 games to know Wilson and RG3 will make it. You're pointing out how good he was in college. Then asking what changed in the NFL? Are you for real? I don't really need to get into comparing college defenses with NFL defenses. How many QBs were so great in college yet sucked in the NFL? There's a LONG list. The newest edition to that list is tebow. I expected AT LEAST 1 TD as a jet. Just one in an entire preseason. An entire season. Don't give me this he didnt get an opportunity crap. McElroy at least scored in the preseason and regular season.

Tebow is not a starting QB. I remember Gino torretta fans telling me to wait and see too. Good luck following his soon to be extinct career.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:34 PM   #193
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Cam Newton plays in an incredibly friendly offense to his (and Tim Tebow's) skill set, has been given all the snaps since day one, and still hasn't won ****.

Tim Tebow has been a square peg pounded into round holes from day one and he's got a division title and playoff win to his credit.
*yawn*

Mark Sanchez laughs at Tebow's division title
He only made it to back to back AFC Championships to start his career

Maybe one day you will stop praising individual players for team accomplishments and actually judge players for how their perform in their role, not how their teammates perform

Or you can continue to live in a fantasy land where Cam Newton is less valuable than a 3rd string qb/punt protector
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:38 PM   #194
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As another consideration, I think the economics of the NFL have changed as well. There was a time when a team could sit a guy like Young behind a Montana for a couple of years. Not anymore. Every team is looking for the RGIII, Luck, or Wilson to get them going right out of the gate. If you have a really good QB playing number two to your starter, teams will be coming after him and you'll have to pay him. The economics don't work anymore. Tebow had his shot. Will he get another? I doubt it.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:42 PM   #195
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*yawn*

Mark Sanchez laughs at Tebow's division title
He only made it to back to back AFC Championships to start his career

Maybe one day you will stop praising individual players for team accomplishments and actually judge players for how their perform in their role, not how their teammates perform

Or you can continue to live in a fantasy land where Cam Newton is less valuable than a 3rd string qb/punt protector
Drek is flat out blind. He thinks tebow full blasted himself into the playoffs. When in the REAL WORLD tebow was given the opportunity to get the broncos into the playoffs, went 0-3 and had Phillip rivers beat the raiders for us to even get in. Would be funny to see what they would be saying had the raiders won that last game. What would they have to cling to then?
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:44 PM   #196
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Hi, I'm Denver Broncos Fan. I hate Tebow because he helped turn around a dog**** team and win our first playoff game in 7 years and make a season that was completely lost, fun again.

I hope he fails miserably in all his travels.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:50 PM   #197
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Hi, I'm Denver Broncos Fan. I hate Tebow because he helped turn around a dog**** team and win our first playoff game in 7 years and make a season that was completely lost, fun again.

I hope he fails miserably in all his travels.
Same dog **** team that might win 13 games with a real QB
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:53 PM   #198
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Same dog **** team that might win 13 games with a real QB
See, the difference between you and me was I was happy in the playoffs last year, and I will be this year also. Sucks to only be a fan of a team completely on your terms. Sounds kind of control freaky.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:53 PM   #199
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Hi, I'm Denver Broncos Fan. I hate Tebow because he helped turn around a dog**** team and win our first playoff game in 7 years and make a season that was completely lost, fun again.

I hope he fails miserably in all his travels.
In sports there are some people who hate players/teams just for the hate of them. Then there are some who hate teams/players because of obnoxious fans of those teams/players. Lakers are an example of that. The hate for tebow would be alot less if the ridiculous fans would just shut up about this fantasy future. Quit blaming everything around him and making excuses. There were excuses for every ****ty QB that ended up sucking in the NFL.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:57 PM   #200
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The fact that teams aren't chomping at the bit to bring him in and move him to HB or FB only further proves my point that most NFL GMs are too worried about their own job security to perform well. Tim Tebow if nothing else would be a standout situational ball carrier for any team. The complete unwillingness to bridge the gap with Tim by having him play that role while being groomed as a QB is proof enough that most NFL decision makers are about as capable of reasonable negotiation/management as the U.S. House of Congress.
The Tebow wasn't happy being a situational player and will demand a trade/release in the offseason.
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