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Old 12-21-2012, 09:26 AM   #151
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The entire league also passed on Doug Flutie, which is why he had to go to the CFL.

The entire league except Bill Walsh passed on Steve Young at one point, after far less success than Tebow had in his brief opportunity to start.

The entire league passed on Rich Gannon as a QB, with New England originally trying to make him a safety.

The entire league passed on Kurt Warner, hence why he played arena league ball for a while.

The entire league passes on elite players all the time, only to be proven wrong further down the road time and time again. It is in no way a valid measuring stick.
Steve Young and Rich Gannon are the only people on that list who got any extensive playing time in the NFL before becoming a legend. It is not that common for someone to suck, bounce around mulitiple teams/leagues, and then become great.
And this is not even taking into the fact how the game has changed since Flutie and Young.

The difference in comparing Tebow to guys who were low draft picks, career backups, Arena league players, etc.. that become good is that teams have already seen him play the position in the NFL

He is not some unkown like a Warner or a Flutie.

For every Steve Young and Rich Gannon there are 300 Colt McCoys and kellen Moores

Yes everyone could be wrong, most likely that will not be the case though

Thinking he could of been good is one thing
Saying he still is good today after what we know is idiotic

Then again this was the same person who kept saying all last year how he was better than Cam Newton, so not too suprised

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Old 12-21-2012, 09:44 AM   #152
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For every Steve Young and Rich Gannon there are 300 Colt McCoys and kellen Moores


Dude... Kellen has been in the league one year... how did he get lumped into your example? Kellen will probably never be a starter... but dude will make some pretty damn good bank backing up for next 10 years or so and one thing that can't be argued... he knows the game and how to read a defense... could he step in from time for a game or two? I think so.. how does that make him a failure?
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:46 AM   #153
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The entire league passes on elite players all the time, only to be proven wrong further down the road time and time again. It is in no way a valid measuring stick.
All the time? Ok. Lets see more examples then. All the time after decades would mean tons of examples. There's only a handful of players who can even use that term truly "elite"
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:54 AM   #154
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I would do it only if they would include Tony Sparano in the deal. I would love to have him come in here and replicate the Wildcat, like he's done with the Jets this year. That thing is unstoppable!
You really shouldn't do this sarcastic posting since many had trouble figuring it was sarcasm already.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:58 AM   #155
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Gosh enjolras haven't you read this thread it has been determined by the experts on the OM that is an utterly ridiculous idea. It has been dismissed out of hand.
You said trade for him with a 4th and 6th. You didn't say if he was released.
Tebow isn't giving up the rock to be a TE just yet. Until then, he won't be in Denver.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:01 AM   #156
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You said trade for him with a 4th and 6th. You didn't say if he was released.
Tebow isn't giving up the rock to be a TE just yet. Until then, he won't be in Denver.
Or fullback / hback
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:03 AM   #157
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For every Steve Young and Rich Gannon there are 300 Colt McCoys and kellen Moores


Dude... Kellen has been in the league one year... how did he get lumped into your example? Kellen will probably never be a starter... but dude will make some pretty damn good bank backing up for next 10 years or so and one thing that can't be argued... he knows the game and how to read a defense... could he step in from time for a game or two? I think so.. how does that make him a failure?
Kellen Moore is an example of a stud college qb who won tons of games but slid in the draft due to his physical limitations

I am saying that if a guy slides in the draft for said limitations, and then displays those limitations when he actually plays, there is no reason to say he is an exception (this is in regards to Tebow)

Like a Rich Gannon or a Doug Flutie

Moore has not played yet, I am just going under the assumption he will be a career backup like he was drafted to be despite the fact he won tons of games in college and was a prolific passer
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:33 AM   #158
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Kellen Moore is an example of a stud college qb who won tons of games but slid in the draft due to his physical limitations

I am saying that if a guy slides in the draft for said limitations, and then displays those limitations when he actually plays, there is no reason to say he is an exception (this is in regards to Tebow)

Like a Rich Gannon or a Doug Flutie

Moore has not played yet, I am just going under the assumption he will be a career backup like he was drafted to be despite the fact he won tons of games in college and was a prolific passer
All of that is complete fair... I myself expected him to be a career back up then a coach at some level. So yea... I agree completly with your analogy.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:35 AM   #159
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I'm just curious what exactly it will take for guys like Drek to give up the ghost of Tebow as a QB. What, in your mind, is a "valid measuring stick" to actually look at Tim Tebow objectively, and how is it exactly that you know so much better than those who are paid to evaluate guys like him?
Drek might be my favorite poster on the Mane, but he's so off on Tebow it's bewildering. The same illness effected Rev and Dedhed, among many others, but they've quietly backed away from their once delusional support for the Ultimate Teammate. Within a year I don't think there will be anybody left in the Tebow fanclub.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:39 AM   #160
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Drek might be my favorite poster on the Mane, but he's so off on Tebow it's bewildering. The same illness effected Rev and Dedhed, among many others, but they've quietly backed away from their once delusional support for the Ultimate Teammate. Within a year I don't think there will be anybody left in the Tebow fanclub.
I'm with you on all three of those guys. Drek's continued insistence that he hold on to this idea that, somehow, if Tim is just given a(nother) chance, and then another one after that, and with the perfect circumstances surrounding him at all times, that his throwing will magically get better, faster; that he'll suddenly be able to read a defense; that he'll go from a fullback playing quarterback to an actual quarterback... it's just baffling.

That's why I asked the question. How many teams need to give up on him? How many GMs and personnel men need to say the words "he's just not a quarterback at this level" for Drek to believe that maybe, just maybe, the people who get paid to know might actually know.

The guy can't see the field, and he's playing behind Sanchez, who has been absolutely abysmal... and that's not a sign? And this is with jobs on the line! Rex and Tenenbaum might both be gone because of the disappointing returns, and neither of these guys wanted to put in "the guy who just wins"? Because... of some conspiracy?

I just don't follow that logic. It is illogical.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:00 PM   #161
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Tim Tebow would make a great motivational speaker/waterboy type of a guy.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:01 PM   #162
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That's why I asked the question. How many teams need to give up on him? How many GMs and personnel men need to say the words "he's just not a quarterback at this level" for Drek to believe that maybe, just maybe, the people who get paid to know might actually know.
.
I dont think there are ANY GM/HCs that are willing to risk their jobs on Tebows "what if" expectations. There weren't many before he can into the league. Now that they've seen the circus environment IMO there is not one FO that would give him a starting QB job. Jets situation was clearly made by an owner to grasp attention to his team. But that backfired.

There may be one or two teams that are willing to bring him in for exposure profits, but it would not be as a starting QB.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:22 PM   #163
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All the time? Ok. Lets see more examples then. All the time after decades would mean tons of examples. There's only a handful of players who can even use that term truly "elite"
Warren Moon - undrafted, refused to switch positions. Now in the Hall of Fame.

Every team in the NFL passed on Joe Montana twice.

Joey Porter was a practice squader for the Steelers, they cut him, the Ravens picked him up, cut him again, and then he wound up back with the Steelers. He since has won DPOY.

Arian Foster was an undrafted FA, he's now one of the best backs in the NFL.

Shannon Sharpe was a late 7th round pick.

The vast majority of the Broncos best offensive line players during Shanahan's tenure were late rounders and undrafted FAs.

Terrell Davis was a 7th rounder, just like Sharpe. That means ever team passed at least six times.

Tom Brady - also passed on nearly half a dozen times by every team.

Dude, this isn't even hard. We're talking about a league where Tim Couch was a former first overall pick, followed up by Akili Smith. The NFL talent evaluation process is a massive crap shoot.



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That's why I asked the question. How many teams need to give up on him? How many GMs and personnel men need to say the words "he's just not a quarterback at this level" for Drek to believe that maybe, just maybe, the people who get paid to know might actually know.
1. In most professions the level of failure that GMs in the NFL show would be grounds for termination at a minimum, incarceration in some. They are far from infallible, most of them are pulling **** from their asses.

2. I'm a strong believer in what John Madden once said when asked about how great a "genius" Bill Belichick is - that if it wasn't for the NFL these guys would be teaching PE, so it's pretty hard to call 'em a genius when that's the alternative.

A success rate a little better than 50/50 on employee evaluation would be shockingly awful in most circles of highly skilled professionals. That's the average first round success rate for GMs in the NFL.

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Then again this was the same person who kept saying all last year how he was better than Cam Newton, so not too suprised
Cam Newton plays in an incredibly friendly offense to his (and Tim Tebow's) skill set, has been given all the snaps since day one, and still hasn't won ****.

Tim Tebow has been a square peg pounded into round holes from day one and he's got a division title and playoff win to his credit.

Seriously, how any Bronco fan could see last year's Wild Card round playoff game and not think that Tebow has real talent is absolutely beyond me. He carried us to a win over one of the best teams in the NFL that day with big play after big play.

The only difference between Tebow and his peer group is that the more "traditional" passer types have been allowed a much greater degree of freedom to fail as a passer. You jump on Tebow for having a 50% completion rate but that ignores:
Sam Bradford having a 53% completion rate in year two with the Rams.
Eli Manning having a 48.2% completion rate his first 9 games as a rookie and only a 52.8% completion rate in 16 games as a second year QB.
Peyton Manning only completed 56.7% of his passes as a rookie over 16 games.
Steve Young was a 53% or worse passer his first four seasons, which totaled over 30 games played.
Drew Brees was only a 55% passer his rookie season.

Needless to say, I could continue. Last season Tebow wasn't even allowed to try a real NFL offense because this staff had zero faith in him and were unwilling to even try. The previous season he had three starts against real NFL defenses that were actual real passing situations and he had a 50% completion rate, not wildly worse than many good NFL QBs today. That was a dumped into the deep end of the pool scenario with very little prep, while most of the seasons above came from QBs who had entire off-seasons of preparation with at least half, if not all, of the practice reps.

Tebow has never gotten a shot because his throwing motion is awkward, that is compounded further by him being left handed, and he spent his time in college being utilized in a spread option offense that relied heavily on his legs. Other than that its mostly negative image tied to his fan base, not his talent level.

Regardless, that is all about Tebow the passer. This thread is about Tebow the football player, being utilized in a different role. In said different role Tebow could be one of the most dynamic ball carriers in the NFL TODAY. Not a few years from now after being groomed, but next Sunday.

Mike Alstott was a very productive ball carrier. Jerome Bettis is a borderline HoF candidate. Tim Tebow has the size and power of either one of them. He could be an incredibly capable running back while his passing is developed in the off-season. If it never materializes then so be it, but he'd still be a valuable contributor to any team willing to find ways to put the ball in his hands.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:22 PM   #164
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It's a question. That's all, a question.

You might be surprised how many would see that as a good deal for us. As long as it was clear he was not a QB there would be no destructive Tebowmania
Technically, that's all he asked too.

Are you high?

It's a question. That's all, a question.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:30 PM   #165
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Warren Moon - undrafted, refused to switch positions. Now in the Hall of Fame.

Every team in the NFL passed on Joe Montana twice.

Joey Porter was a practice squader for the Steelers, they cut him, the Ravens picked him up, cut him again, and then he wound up back with the Steelers. He since has won DPOY.

Arian Foster was an undrafted FA, he's now one of the best backs in the NFL.

Shannon Sharpe was a late 7th round pick.

The vast majority of the Broncos best offensive line players during Shanahan's tenure were late rounders and undrafted FAs.

Terrell Davis was a 7th rounder, just like Sharpe. That means ever team passed at least six times.

Tom Brady - also passed on nearly half a dozen times by every team.

Dude, this isn't even hard. We're talking about a league where Tim Couch was a former first overall pick, followed up by Akili Smith. The NFL talent evaluation process is a massive crap shoot.





1. In most professions the level of failure that GMs in the NFL show would be grounds for termination at a minimum, incarceration in some. They are far from infallible, most of them are pulling **** from their asses.

2. I'm a strong believer in what John Madden once said when asked about how great a "genius" Bill Belichick is - that if it wasn't for the NFL these guys would be teaching PE, so it's pretty hard to call 'em a genius when that's the alternative.

A success rate a little better than 50/50 on employee evaluation would be shockingly awful in most circles of highly skilled professionals. That's the average first round success rate for GMs in the NFL.


Cam Newton plays in an incredibly friendly offense to his (and Tim Tebow's) skill set, has been given all the snaps since day one, and still hasn't won ****.

Tim Tebow has been a square peg pounded into round holes from day one and he's got a division title and playoff win to his credit.

Seriously, how any Bronco fan could see last year's Wild Card round playoff game and not think that Tebow has real talent is absolutely beyond me. He carried us to a win over one of the best teams in the NFL that day with big play after big play.

The only difference between Tebow and his peer group is that the more "traditional" passer types have been allowed a much greater degree of freedom to fail as a passer. You jump on Tebow for having a 50% completion rate but that ignores:
Sam Bradford having a 53% completion rate in year two with the Rams.
Eli Manning having a 48.2% completion rate his first 9 games as a rookie and only a 52.8% completion rate in 16 games as a second year QB.
Peyton Manning only completed 56.7% of his passes as a rookie over 16 games.
Steve Young was a 53% or worse passer his first four seasons, which totaled over 30 games played.
Drew Brees was only a 55% passer his rookie season.

Needless to say, I could continue. Last season Tebow wasn't even allowed to try a real NFL offense because this staff had zero faith in him and were unwilling to even try. The previous season he had three starts against real NFL defenses that were actual real passing situations and he had a 50% completion rate, not wildly worse than many good NFL QBs today. That was a dumped into the deep end of the pool scenario with very little prep, while most of the seasons above came from QBs who had entire off-seasons of preparation with at least half, if not all, of the practice reps.

Tebow has never gotten a shot because his throwing motion is awkward, that is compounded further by him being left handed, and he spent his time in college being utilized in a spread option offense that relied heavily on his legs. Other than that its mostly negative image tied to his fan base, not his talent level.

Regardless, that is all about Tebow the passer. This thread is about Tebow the football player, being utilized in a different role. In said different role Tebow could be one of the most dynamic ball carriers in the NFL TODAY. Not a few years from now after being groomed, but next Sunday.

Mike Alstott was a very productive ball carrier. Jerome Bettis is a borderline HoF candidate. Tim Tebow has the size and power of either one of them. He could be an incredibly capable running back while his passing is developed in the off-season. If it never materializes then so be it, but he'd still be a valuable contributor to any team willing to find ways to put the ball in his hands.
When comparing Tebows possible same future as these players, maybe stick to examples of QBs. Sure there's going to be players overlooked who turn out great. Problem is Tebow WASN'T overlooked. He was in fact babied. Dumbing down an offense so badly just to get him on the field? You just compared Moons skills to Tebows? You're out of your mind. There's 2 examples. Young and flutie. And even young Had a different running skill. BYU and florida offenses were not the same. Quit comparing QBs who can throw. The differences with all those examples you gave is they had the skill set to become great. Tebow doesn't.

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Old 12-21-2012, 12:34 PM   #166
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I used to think Drek knew what he was talking about...
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:42 PM   #167
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You really shouldn't do this sarcastic posting since many had trouble figuring it was sarcasm already.
I actually got a negative REP in this thread from TailgateNut of all people. He called me a moron.

Is that ironic, or what?
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:53 PM   #168
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Seriously, how any Bronco fan could see last year's Wild Card round playoff game and not think that Tebow has real talent is absolutely beyond me. He carried us to a win over one of the best teams in the NFL that day with big play after big play.
Seriously, Drek... what "I" saw in that playoff game was an unprecedented lack of respect for our passing game from the Steelers D. Their concern was the run and they were totally unprepared for a pass play to be called... or more accurately, for it to be thrown well enough to be completed. And that disrespect bit them in the butt when Tebow and Thomas hooked up for the game winner. It was a good play... good execution and an amazing play call... but to say Tebow had "big play after big play" in that game seems like hyperbole to me. It's far more realistic and accurate to say that he had an awesome play that determined the game's outcome.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:54 PM   #169
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When comparing Tebows possible same future as these players, maybe stick to examples of QBs. Sure there's going to be players overlooked who turn out great. Problem is Tebow WASN'T overlooked. He was in fact babied. Dumbing down an offense so badly just to get him on the field? You just compared Moons skills to Tebows? You're out of your mind. There's 2 examples. Young and flutie. And even young Had a different running skill. BYU and florida offenses were not the same. Quit comparing QBs who can throw. The differences with all those examples you gave is they had the skill set to become great. Tebow doesn't.
Ok, prove it.

Tim Tebow in college never had a season below a 64.4% completion rate and that was the year with his fewest pass attempts (298). His final season he completed 67.8% of his passes, on 314 attempts. That's more passes than a lot of rookie QBs make in a 16 game rookie season, so it's not that his college offense reduced his attempts via having him tuck and run repeatedly.

So what suddenly changed to where he can't complete passes in the NFL? Every QB upon entering the NFL hits a rough transition, primarily in their ability to complete passes. This is why most QB coaches will tell you it takes a good 20 games in the NFL for a young QB to adapt.

Tebow hasn't gotten 10 games where he's been allowed to actually throw the football with regularity and adapt to the NFL game. You say they dumbed down the offense last season because Tebow couldn't handle it but his completion percentage still went up as the season went on and his best games were the ones where he was allowed to throw with regularity. So I'd say last year's offense was the coaching staff dumbing down the offense due to their own insecurity about letting Tebow throw and therefore turning it into a self fulfilling prophecy.

What former first round QB has never been given a full off-season of preparation as the #1 starter in his entire career? I can't think of many, other than Tebow.

What former first round QB was moved off his drafting team before he even logged 16 starts? Again, not many other than Tebow.

So how has he been babied? All I see is a bunch of stubborn coaches refusing to give Tebow a chance because he's not their guy or doesn't fit their exact definition of what they want at QB.

If Tebow had gone to a team that didn't replace the GM and HC that brought him in before his first year was even over he might have gotten a real chance to develop and learn on the job, like most first round QBs. Instead he quickly became the previous regime's guy and was shuttled out of town at the first real opportunity. Since then he's been marked as damaged goods.

Meanwhile Andrew "The Savior" Luck is posting a whopping 54% completion rate and a QB rating on par with Tebow's career QBR, but he "wins games" so he's in ROY contention. Tebow did the same thing after being spotted a 1-5 start but he's been summarily dismissed. See the double standard? Its gratuitous over-weighting of the eye test and not paying attention to the outcomes.

Baseball had this same problem not too long ago. Kevin Youkilis didn't get a real shot in the majors until his mid-20's despite setting the all time minor league hit streak record because he didn't look like a conventional baseball player. He became a star, along with tons of other people scouts hated but who had valuable baseball skills. Unlike baseball there is no easy way to quantify all the skills that it takes to play football, since there are no true one on one match ups to isolate data points.

Now to clarify, I think there is a very good chance that even given a real shot to start at QB Tim Tebow would never amount to a good NFL QB. That is a very real outcome. But Tim Tebow is already a damn good football player, at least when he's got the ball and a lane to run in. So I just don't get why teams are so unwilling to work on the former in exchange for reaping the current profits of the later. Its not like you ever really need to let him start if you don't think he's developed any as a passer in two or three years, but the upside if he does is pretty tremendous. Meanwhile he's an elite power back like very few others.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:55 PM   #170
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I actually got a negative REP in this thread from TailgateNut of all people. He called me a moron.

Is that ironic, or what?
Negrep from TGN?

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Old 12-21-2012, 12:57 PM   #171
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Seriously, Drek... what "I" saw in that playoff game was an unprecedented lack of respect for our passing game from the Steelers D. Their concern was the run and they were totally unprepared for a pass play to be called... or more accurately, for it to be thrown well enough to be completed. And that disrespect bit them in the butt when Tebow and Thomas hooked up for the game winner. It was a good play... good execution and an amazing play call... but to say Tebow had "big play after big play" in that game seems like hyperbole to me. It's far more realistic and accurate to say that he had an awesome play that determined the game's outcome.
He threw for 316 yards, 2 touchdowns, and a QB rating of 125.6 against that year's best defense. It wasn't just one good play.

And this all out attempt to stop the run you cite as the reason for that still allowed Tebow to run for 50 yards and a touchdown.

So he basically demolished the best defense in the league that year short his #2 WR and best offensive lineman, in only his 15th start in the NFL, period.

Yeah. Strong argument you got there.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:57 PM   #172
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Still wondering what it will take for the levy to break and for Drek to see what 100% of GMs in the league see in Tim Tebow: A non-quarterback.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:01 PM   #173
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Ground Emerges As Tim Tebow's Favorite Target



FLORHAM PARK, NJ—With competition heating up at practices, Jets coaches and players confirmed Thursday that the ground was quickly emerging as quarterback Tim Tebow’s favorite target and had already received 90 percent of the third-year player’s passes during the first three weeks of training camp.

Despite having a variety of options in wide receivers Santonio Holmes and Stephen Hill, tight end Dustin Keller, and even converted cornerback Antonio Cromartie, Tebow’s rapport with the ground has been evident as the quarterback has repeatedly thrown in the direction of the grassy surface.

“As we get into camp, more and more often Tim has been throwing to the ground,” center Nick Mangold said. “During plays, he just has this instinct for finding the ground every time. It’s becoming apparent to everyone on the team that the ground is Tim’s go-to target.”

“He just loves throwing it right to the ground,” Mangold added. “It doesn’t matter if the defense comes out in man coverage or an overload blitz. Tebow seems to know exactly where the ground will be and hits the wide-open turf every time.”

At a press conference at the team’s practice facilities, Jets head coach Rex Ryan said Tebow had developed great chemistry with the ground, adding that Tebow threw to the ground not just during scrimmages, but also throughout passing drills and warm-ups. Ryan noted that Tebow often stayed after practice with the QB coach throwing to the ground for hours.

“I’m impressed by how fast a deep bond formed between the ground and Tim,” said Ryan, adding that Tebow and the ground were on the same wavelength and on the path to becoming one the most memorable passing combinations in the franchise’s history. “Overall, Tebow and the ground share very similar characteristics and mindsets.”

Ryan was reportedly impressed with Tebow’s mobility and said the quarterback could consistently scramble away from defensive pressure and throw to the ground while on the run.

Jets quarterback coach Matt Cavanaugh said Tebow had elevated his game this season, demonstrating increased confidence and the arm strength to launch the ball 40 to 60 yards, as well the accuracy to hit right between the numbers painted on the grass. Cavanaugh confirmed Tebow had improved mechanics and velocity and was capable of hitting the ground anywhere on the field.

“Tim has exhibited over and over again that he can find the ground on a quick slant, fly route, button hook, Hail Mary, or screen pass,” Cavanaugh said. “Tebow just has that soft touch. He can toss a beautiful fade and precisely deliver the ball right to the ground in the corner of the end zone.”

“Sometimes he’s doing it almost to a fault,” Cavanaugh continued, “immediately flinging it to the ground when it’s not even his first or second option.”

After a meeting with Jets offensive coordinator Tony Sparano, Tebow has reportedly been focused on spreading the ball around more and has developed other favorite targets, including Gatorade coolers, D’Brickashaw Ferguson’s back, the bench, the pylons, a laundry bin filled with towels, and the team’s golf cart.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/gro...-target,29210/

Last edited by Houshyamama; 12-21-2012 at 01:04 PM..
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:01 PM   #174
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Still wondering what it will take for the levy to break and for Drek to see what 100% of GMs in the league see in Tim Tebow: A non-quarterback.
Just wondering Kyle... are you a "Quarterback?"

Cuz if you are, I'm not sure if anyone really needs one of those.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:02 PM   #175
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This one's for Pat!
 
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Negrep from TGN?

No kidding. I had no idea he was still around.
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