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Old 12-20-2012, 07:28 AM   #126
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Why? Malik Jackson plays like a long term development project.

If he's on the field longer than a few plays, we're in trouble.
Malik was always around the ball in preseason. We are playing Cleveland and KC, what's it going to hurt to give him reps? I thought he looked more explosive than Wolfe with his reps. Also I want to see if he fits the position and could provide solid depth if not develop into a starter. Again, I'm insinuating upgrading talent, we should look at all options, especially one already on the roster.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:59 AM   #127
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Why do you selectively put stuff in? That's just misleading.

Jack Del Rio values stud DTs because in Jax he had Stroud/Henderson as blue chip players that were two of the best in the AFC for years.

See what I did there?
What I wrote was accurate. And that sentiment was echoed by Elway and Fox last offseason, both in interviews, as well as in Free Agency.

As for Del Rio, he didn't draft Stroud or Henderson. Tom Coughlin did. Del Rio did not draft a DT high in the draft while he had any draftday say. Infact, the only time the Jags drafted a DT in the top 2 rounds in his entire tenure was when Gene Smith had usurped full draft authority and reached for Tyson Alualu in 2010. Prior to that, the Jags had spent just a few mid-round picks on DTs despite trading away Stroud and Henderson because they were too expensive.

I think its entirely accurate to say that based on established precedent, it's highly unlikely the leaders of our organization value DTs as difference makers or valuable entities to spend top resources on.

And keep in mind, Pat Bowlen hates DTs because they killed his parents. We had to reclassify Wolfe as a DE just so he could stay on the team.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:32 AM   #128
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What I wrote was accurate. And that sentiment was echoed by Elway and Fox last offseason, both in interviews, as well as in Free Agency.

As for Del Rio, he didn't draft Stroud or Henderson. Tom Coughlin did. Del Rio did not draft a DT high in the draft while he had any draftday say. Infact, the only time the Jags drafted a DT in the top 2 rounds in his entire tenure was when Gene Smith had usurped full draft authority and reached for Tyson Alualu in 2010. Prior to that, the Jags had spent just a few mid-round picks on DTs despite trading away Stroud and Henderson because they were too expensive.

I think its entirely accurate to say that based on established precedent, it's highly unlikely the leaders of our organization value DTs as difference makers or valuable entities to spend top resources on.

And keep in mind, Pat Bowlen hates DTs because they killed his parents. We had to reclassify Wolfe as a DE just so he could stay on the team.
Take a look at what I wrote you on the previous page...
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:51 AM   #129
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Take a look at what I wrote you on the previous page...
I saw the response. I also know how we've played the entirety of the season. I can respect that you're a passionate Bronco fan that is resolute in your opinions. I don't really feel the need to rehash the same argument back and forth. You feel we run a one gap scheme, I feel we run a two gap scheme. We're obviously not going to two gap on obvious passing downs, and in Baltimore, they only ran the ball 17 times the entire game. The technique changes based on key reads. Potential two gapping D-linemen are slower off the ball because they need to read their keys and determine their job. If Wolfe is supposed to two gap the run but reads pass, he changes after the snap to either play pure contain or attempts to shoot a gap. Our scheme evolves on situations just like every team's does. It's a complicated process which is why rookies usually struggle. Wolfe is not though, which is really promising.

In terms of debating on a forum though, it's rather pointless. My larger point in participating was that we need a unique talent to play Power End, essentially a 34 defensive end if Del Rio continues to employ the scheme he has had such success with this year. And I think he will. This is the same scheme they used in Baltimore with Peter Boulware. They used two gapping DTs Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa there, along with a 5 tech in Marquise Douglas in the Derrick Wolfe role. Rob Burnett was Dumervil. Jamie Sharper was Woodyard. That was one of the greatest defenses of all time, and we're running the same thing now. We are just missing our version of Rey Lewis to make it all come together. Which is why I think Kevin Minter is our guy if he comes out in Round 1.

It's also why I don't think DT is important. Adams and Goose were at the end of their careers and were one dimensional space eaters. That's essentially what Bannan and Vickerson are. Siliga is a pure space eater as well. I would love to see us draft Kawann Short whom I listed as my #1 DT two years ago. I just don't think it's going to happen based on history and the scheme we are running. If we draft a DT, it will be a one dimensional fatty in the mid rounds or later. More likely we'll just sign one dimensional pluggers on the cheap in free agency like we did this year. And no, Terrance Knighton probably won't come cheap enough for us.

But anyway, that's what I think we are doing defensively. Jason Hunter has no place in this scheme except as a RDE backup to Dumervil, which is not needed if we keep Ayers another year. Jeremy Beal is somewhere in that mix as well. Malik Jackson is Wolfe's backup at LDE.

The more I've studied the situation, Del Rio's schematic history, and Ayers' contract apparently not having voided the final year, I think we're probably set at Defensive End barring a trade. I also don't think we go DT for the reasons stated until the mid rounds at the earliest. Moreno's success has muddied the RB situation a bit. I'm not sure what we do there.

Right now, I think we need via Free Agency or the Draft:

Starter
1. MLB (Te'o isn't an option, but Minter isn't too far behind him)

Depth
2. WR x 2 (If we got a return guy like Austin, it would make Holliday and his fumbles expendable).
3. SS
4. OG
5. NT
6. CB

RDE and RB jump way up if Ayers and Moreno are traded/cut.



That's about all the thoughts I have at this point in time.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:13 PM   #130
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Who two gaps on the Broncos? Because I do not see it on the film..it's a totally different alignment and technique, it's usually very noticeable... Maybe Fontaine can verify this, he also studies the D Line.. I just don't see this 3-3-5 as our base and using two gapping?

When we run 3-3-5 the D Line consists of Doom, Wolfe, and Ayers. Wolfe will line up at the NT 0 technique and two gap. But Doom and Ayers do not play 5 techniques..I just don't see how two gapping and our scheme are intertwined..
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:43 PM   #131
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Who two gaps on the Broncos? Because I do not see it on the film..it's a totally different alignment and technique, it's usually very noticeable... Maybe Fontaine can verify this, he also studies the D Line.. I just don't see this 3-3-5 as our base and using two gapping?

When we run 3-3-5 the D Line consists of Doom, Wolfe, and Ayers. Wolfe will line up at the NT 0 technique and two gap. But Doom and Ayers do not play 5 techniques..I just don't see how two gapping and our scheme are intertwined..
All of our DTs. It's not married to a particular formation, it's a concept and scheme. It's also not entirely noticeable. Sure, if you run a traditional 3 man front with a DT on the nose, but we don't do that. And that's not what I'm implying. It's easy to see two-gapping on actual running plays, especially interior ones, but on sweeps and passing downs, all that might tip you off to a two gap scheme is a slow release or brief pause. Many people complain Wolfe is slow off the snap despite showing extreme quickness at the Combine. That's why. He's reading his keys. And when they pass, you rush.

The base is usually Dumervil, a DT, and Wolfe. Ayers is not a part of the base defense. He barely sees the field, and usually only when we're way ahead or its an obvious passing down. Miller and Dumervil are usually coming wide on a 9 style angle. Woodyard is always on the field, and usually we'll have an ILB up. Sometimes, we'll go with Bannan/Vick instead and present the 5-2 look with Miller standing at the line on obvious running downs. But our base defense is usually a nickel look, whether that's because we get ahead quickly, or we sack the offense so much, or we just feel our best 11 include 5 in the secondary, is up for debate. We have five DBs that play the vast majority of the entire game (Champ, Harris, Moore, Adams, and Carter). That's simply fact and the snap counts confirm that. Leonhard comes in for dime.

That means the vast majority of the time we have 6 in the box. Simple math says if you have only 6 bigs, and you rush an OLB off the edge almost every time, you have to two gap to control the running lanes otherwise you would get gashed. Not to mention Dumervil is almost useless in the running game himself, he rushes outside contain and goes for the QB every snap from his wide 9. The interior DTs and Wolfe, must contain the gaps as it all falls to them. That's why we have a 300 lb DE, whom is really a DT. There's no other reason. This is the same scheme Baltimore ran when Del Rio was the LB's coach there.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:50 PM   #132
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I think this is relevant for your twos debate

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...e-in-the-draft
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:04 PM   #133
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I think this is relevant for your debate.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...e-in-the-draft
fixed that for you..
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:35 AM   #134
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Mosley is returning to school so that hurts the back end of the first round.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:10 AM   #135
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I think this is relevant for your twos debate

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...e-in-the-draft
That was almost tailor made for our debate..
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:12 AM   #136
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I don't see this predominant two gapping from our three bigs...when you two gap it's a different technique.. How can I miss it like its that obvious.

That doesn't change the need to upgrade the DT position.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:24 AM   #137
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I don't see this predominant two gapping from our three bigs...when you two gap it's a different technique.. How can I miss it like its that obvious.

That doesn't change the need to upgrade the DT position.
not sure how you do that and get much better than we are. there is a theory about diminishing returns..

WE need to resign Vickerson or a new guy to replace him as he is a UFA as for Bannan maybe a one more year.. I would love to get a REAL DT in this upcoming draft or one of our other guys making the next leap ..

Maybe another year in the scheme makes everyone that much better..
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:42 AM   #138
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not sure how you do that and get much better than we are. there is a theory about diminishing returns..

WE need to resign Vickerson or a new guy to replace him as he is a UFA as for Bannan maybe a one more year.. I would love to get a REAL DT in this upcoming draft or one of our other guys making the next leap ..

Maybe another year in the scheme makes everyone that much better..
I love the way Vickerson is playing, I'd offer him a deal and bring him back. Bannan and Unrein can be upgraded.. A draft pick and another free agent.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:51 AM   #139
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I love the way Vickerson is playing, I'd offer him a deal and bring him back. Bannan and Unrein can be upgraded.. A draft pick and another free agent.
everyone can be upgraded but Unrein is a year two player, has doubled his production over year one, everything I see or hear from the coaching staff is they like the kid.... and Bannan is having a career year.

I think the way the broncos are playing these guys, they have plenty of miles left on them, and not sure just how much more you can improve over what we already have..

that said I would love to see them draft a DT HIGH and groom him like they did with Wolfe, and perhaps another guy in two years just to keep the blood line fresh..
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:10 AM   #140
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For me, the 1st round pick is easy:

1. If Kuper's ankle is screwed, pick the best OL available.
2. If not, pick the best Defensive player available. Probably either Eric Reid, Matt Elam, Kawann Short, or Kevin Minter.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:32 AM   #141
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I'm curious about how a guy like Richard Seymour would into our hybrid scheme we run now. While he isn't in his prime anymore he would still be a good pass rusher to have.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:45 AM   #142
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I'm curious about how a guy like Richard Seymour would into our hybrid scheme we run now. While he isn't in his prime anymore he would still be a good pass rusher to have.
To play DE (Wolfe's role) or DT..?
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:50 AM   #143
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To play DE (Wolfe's role) or DT..?
What would be his ideal fit? DT in the traditional 4-3 and DE in the 3-3-5 right?
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:56 AM   #144
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What would be his ideal fit? DT in the traditional 4-3 and DE in the 3-3-5 right?
This is where the debate lies.. IAOFM put out an article that says Vick, Bannan, and Wolfe two gap.. While I haven't seen that on film, apparently it's painfully obvious. But in that case he would play DE in our base 4-3 U or 5-2 scheme and could kick inside, very similar to Wolfe.. Just more proven and with a higher price tag.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:40 PM   #145
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This is where the debate lies.. IAOFM put out an article that says Vick, Bannan, and Wolfe two gap.. While I haven't seen that on film, apparently it's painfully obvious. But in that case he would play DE in our base 4-3 U or 5-2 scheme and could kick inside, very similar to Wolfe.. Just more proven and with a higher price tag.
See I like Bannan, Vick, and Wolfe. I don't want to take Wolfe off the field for Seymour though. Funny thing about Seymour is he is making just 2.3 million this year. 975K base and 1.3 in bonuses. He is gone next year though his contract jumps up to 16.315 million dollars for the next FOUR years. So maybe Denver can sign him for the 1.5 million that Warren was making. I mean he still is going to get paid by the Raiders too.
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:43 PM   #146
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I don't see this predominant two gapping from our three bigs...when you two gap it's a different technique.. How can I miss it like its that obvious.

That doesn't change the need to upgrade the DT position.
Interesting article. Not sure if Ted Bartlett is a definitive source, but I do agree with him here.

I do disagree that two gapping is obvious. It can be very nuanced. The game moves so fast, and these athletes are trained to read their keys so quickly, that the slightest hesitation at the snap is all you might be able to see. And the down, distance, and offensive tendency impacts when we play this scheme as well.


Anyway, moving on to the upgrading DT discussion...


Assuming we run the same scheme, which I think we will unless Del Rio leaves. We'll be in need of three DTs for our game day roster. One of those will absolutely be Mitch Unrein, whose game most resembles Kevin Vickerson's. Especially if Unrein continues to put on weight. If I'm a betting man, Vickerson is not likely brought back. Despite playing well, he's had his snaps decreased greatly the last three games (29, 16, 23), while Unrein's have increased (25, 19, 23). They are essentially even playing time now, while Unrein is a player that is ascending and cheap, Vickerson has peaked and is moderately expensive. And we didn't think overly highly of him entering the season when we demanded he take a pay cut.

I think we'll let him walk.

Bannan has been a stud this season, and he's from Colorado. He's still somewhat young at 34. The issue is he went from a 3 year deal with St. Louis for 8.5 million to a 1 year deal with Denver for 1 million. We'll have to see if he takes a hometown discount again. He's certainly good enough that he doesn't have to. Does Denver think he's worth 2.5-3 million per year for 25 snaps a game? There were rumors we did offer Bunkley that amount for essentially the same thing. He, of course, got 5 million per year, which seems to be the general market price for starting run defending DTs. And we won't pay Bannan close to that.

I hope we bring him back, but we do have Sealver Siliga developing and waiting in the wings. We do know the coaching staff is impressed with him and sees him as a future contributor. I think Siliga is definitely on the team next season, and he is a younger version of Bannan.

So, for me, we have room for three active DTs. Only three, because Wolfe and Malik Jackson can also slide inside if needed. I think Unrein replaces Vickerson as the all-around DT and will play 35 snaps a game. Bannan or Siliga will be the pure run stuffing DT playing 25 snaps a game. And I think there's a chance Jackson moves up to the Unrein role, he's played up to 20 snaps in a few games, mostly at DT.

So, that leaves room for zero to one DT by my count. If we keep Bannan and Siliga, there is no room except on the Practice Squad or game day inactive list, and that would be for a late round draft pick or UDFA. I'm not really interested in discussing either of those.

Thus, in order to be discussing an earlier round DT, we need both Bannan and Vickerson to walk. Now we need another DT to round out the trio with Unrein and Siliga. And remember here, with our defensive scheme, we are only looking for a DT to play 25-30 snaps in a set rotation. I doubt we use an early round draft pick on a 25 snap per game player. I could see us using a 3rd-5th round pick on such a player though, and we know that Del Rio prefers bigger DTs per history and his instruction to Vickerson to get to 320 for his scheme.

So, that would mean prospects such as:

3rd Round
- Jesse Williams, Brandon Williams

4th - 6th Round
- Cory Grissom, Everett Dawkins, Anthony McCloud, Montori Hughes


As for Seymour. He'd probably want too much money. Even at age 34, he could fit anywhere though. We'd use him as 35 snap per game DT, but unless he would settle for 2.5-3 million per season on a 1-2 year deal, I'm not sure he's an option. It depends on how badly he wants a chance to play for a Championship and how soft his market is. I don't think it will be all that soft.
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Old 12-21-2012, 04:23 PM   #147
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All of our DTs. It's not married to a particular formation, it's a concept and scheme. It's also not entirely noticeable. Sure, if you run a traditional 3 man front with a DT on the nose, but we don't do that. And that's not what I'm implying. It's easy to see two-gapping on actual running plays, especially interior ones, but on sweeps and passing downs, all that might tip you off to a two gap scheme is a slow release or brief pause. Many people complain Wolfe is slow off the snap despite showing extreme quickness at the Combine. That's why. He's reading his keys. And when they pass, you rush.
This is the key. Most of the run plays against our defense are in the B and C gaps, and it is not very noticeable at all that two gapping is occurring. Vickerson usually looks as though he's penetrating. Wolfe does flow with the play if it's a run play, Bannan just takes up space.. I understand that having Wolfe play DE puts more size on the line and helps with the run defense. And maybe we are using our DTs in a one gap alignment, but they diagnose the play as pass or run to determine how they play. Because we are not playing the same way as Seattle, similar but different, Seattle will line Red Bryant in a traditional 4 tech 3-4 DE role, Mebane will play the 0 and 1 and Branch plays either the 3 or 1 depending on the line shift. We do not show the exact same look, Wolfe does not line up as a four or Bannan as a 0. This is a big reason it's not noticeable that we two gap. We line up in a more traditional 4-3 from technique and alignment, but we flow to the ball almost in a two gapping way. And not having a dominate MLB may lead to more of this read and react flow from our three bigs.

I am fine with it going forward.. But I want to see more pass rush from Wolfe in the outside. I also want to see a more dominate interior. Flexible players like Wolfe who can play any front, can stop the run, but attack the QB. This is why I am huge on Brandon Williams he has set the school sack record and he's a 320 pound DT. He can stop the run, but get after the QB, he's a hard working kid, with the flexibility to play anywhere. He would more than upgrade Bannan...

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Old 12-24-2012, 07:10 PM   #148
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I think we really need to get Margus Hunt. Dude is going to be a beast.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:28 PM   #149
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I think we really need to get Margus Hunt. Dude is going to be a beast.
Wolfe plays UT..? What round is he projected..2?
If we take Hunt we need a dominant NT.. I love Brandon Williams..
But I'd rather get two dominant interior players in the draft.
What sounds better..
1. Doom, Wolfe, Williams, Hunt
2. Doom, Short, Williams, Wolfe
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:39 PM   #150
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Wolfe plays UT..? What round is he projected..2?
If we take Hunt we need a dominant NT.. I love Brandon Williams..
But I'd rather get two dominant interior players in the draft.
What sounds better..
1. Doom, Wolfe, Williams, Hunt
2. Doom, Short, Williams, Wolfe
Hunt had a pretty good bowl game tonight, if he has a good combine I doubt he make it out of the second round.
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