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Old 12-19-2012, 09:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
We can't do that. If they meet the guidelines of a tax exempt organization we have to give it to them regardless of if we don't like what they have to say. Now if they can find something they do that legally says they are not tax exempt then fine go after them. But by protecting the worst speach out there we insure that freedom of speach will be safegaurded.
At some point, common sense has to intervene.

The tax laws regarding religious organizations were never meant as a tax avoidance scheme, though it often is. That congregation is basically one large family of bigots who use their 'religious' status to cover up the obvious fact that they are a 'hate group.'
They are no more a christian church than the KKK is and don't warrant tax free or religious status.

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Westboro will picket Sandy Hook Elementary School to sing praise to God for the glory of his work in executing his judgment.
— Shirley Phelps-Roper (@DearShirley) December 15, 2012
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The church is widely described as a hate group[4] and is monitored as such by the Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center. It is headed by Fred Phelps and consists primarily of members of his large family;[5] in 2011, the church stated that it had about 40 members.[1] The church is headquartered in a residential neighborhood on the west side of Topeka about three miles west of the Kansas State Capitol. Its first public service was held on the afternoon of November 27, 1955.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:33 PM   #27
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Couldn't care less what a poll would show. Any money that any organization brings is that isn't used for charitable purposes should be taxed.

That you think that's some crazy extreme position is idiotic.

What charitable work does the WBC do?
So they can't pay expenses, pay the minister, pay to have church kept up, etc etc? Paying the minister is not charity. Would you want the church to pay tax on that money before they pay him?

Also are you saying a non profit has to be charity to be non profit? Are you saying all non profits that aren't church related should pay more tax?
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:13 PM   #28
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So they can't pay expenses, pay the minister, pay to have church kept up, etc etc? Paying the minister is not charity. Would you want the church to pay tax on that money before they pay him?

Also are you saying a non profit has to be charity to be non profit? Are you saying all non profits that aren't church related should pay more tax?
I'm (sloppily) using the word charity interchangeably with non-profit.

We've gone over this a dozen times cutlet. My position is a church should not be given special privileges above and beyond other non-profits. They should be held to EXACTLY the same standard as any other organization seeking non-profit status. Open books being the biggie (but by no means the only thing).

Are you going to be honest enough to acknowledge that churches are given special privileges over other charities, or are you going to continue to be obtuse?
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:28 AM   #29
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See you don't see churches as more special as compared to just some run of the mill chairty. You are forgetting religion gets special mention in the constitution. The reason they aren't combed through by the IRS is because we don't the govt using that to attack churches whose position they don't like. My point stands we have to protect all churches because people like you already want to attack by sending the IRS in to "prove" you deserve to be a church.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:33 AM   #30
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http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

wow breezing through this i was shocked to find out the IRS of course does make churches account for things with forms. They even tax some church busineses. Looks like the IRS is all over this FED! you made it sound like churches never have to show where any of the money goes. Looks like the govt has a form for that dip****. Just like they do everything.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:42 AM   #31
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come to think of it westboro isnt making money now are they who would donate to those F tards except their own crazy members who do have to pay taxes i assume.
well if they become non tax exempt i wont shead a tear nor would i show any sympathy at all to them if some of their members meet with unfortunate accidents like some pissed off parent laying one or more of them out maybe busting a few jaws ,black eyes , broken nose, hey their face ran into the parents fist the parent should sue for a slightly bruised fist and blood stains on their clothes
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:45 AM   #32
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John Locke (and many other political philosophers) drew a line between liberty and license, liberty being those rights which people ought to have and license being those freedoms people ought not to have. For example, you do not have the freedom to punch somebody in the face if you don't agree with them. The Bill of Rights is meant to be a structure that supports the freedom of the people to accomplish their own ends as they see fit, not to be some kind of free zone, licensing every act imaginable. As Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. stated, "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic."

There's another component to this, responsibility and liberty. Basically it means that if you demand liberty, then you also agree to act like a responsible person. It's bizarre that we have to actually spell this out in the modern era, but it simply means you can't run around acting like a two year old and expect society to not treat you like a two year old.

For a long time, this sect has violated societal norms, violated the spirit of our freedom of speech responsibilities, and really, in effect, screamed "fire" in a crowded theater over and over again. Their speech has no other purpose than to incite. They should be forcibly removed, arrested, cited for disturbance and have their assets confiscated.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:58 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
For a long time, this sect has violated societal norms, violated the spirit of our freedom of speech responsibilities, and really, in effect, screamed "fire" in a crowded theater over and over again. Their speech has no other purpose than to incite. They should be forcibly removed, arrested, cited for disturbance and have their assets confiscated.
Thats a page right out of The Communist Manifesto, Heir Marx.

As an agnostic Conservative, I hope members of this church realize they are not following the example left by Jesus, they are not following Christian doctrine.

As for your comment, sorry, the government is not in the business of picking winners and loosers. You like that form of authoritarian control, move to China.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:04 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
John Locke (and many other political philosophers) drew a line between liberty and license, liberty being those rights which people ought to have and license being those freedoms people ought not to have. For example, you do not have the freedom to punch somebody in the face if you don't agree with them. The Bill of Rights is meant to be a structure that supports the freedom of the people to accomplish their own ends as they see fit, not to be some kind of free zone, licensing every act imaginable. As Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. stated, "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic."

There's another component to this, responsibility and liberty. Basically it means that if you demand liberty, then you also agree to act like a responsible person. It's bizarre that we have to actually spell this out in the modern era, but it simply means you can't run around acting like a two year old and expect society to not treat you like a two year old.

For a long time, this sect has violated societal norms, violated the spirit of our freedom of speech responsibilities, and really, in effect, screamed "fire" in a crowded theater over and over again. Their speech has no other purpose than to incite. They should be forcibly removed, arrested, cited for disturbance and have their assets confiscated.
Unfortunately, in a societal sense we are largely unable to have nuanced discussions and act accordingly based upon common sense, science and rational thought. The modern media echo chamber and political system has largely reduced everything to talking points in which each issue has a definitive position and a polar opposite. Every issue is either a horse race, or akin to two sports teams battling for a win. That's what happens when you have an educational system that teaches grill and kill mathematics taught to pass standardized tests and basic reading without context. We are largely unable to deal with abstracts and gray areas. Everything must be right or wrong, or black and white. Orwell was prophetic.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:18 AM   #35
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Thats a page right out of The Communist Manifesto, Heir Marx.

As an agnostic Conservative, I hope members of this church realize they are not following the example left by Jesus, they are not following Christian doctrine.

As for your comment, sorry, the government is not in the business of picking winners and loosers. You like that form of authoritarian control, move to China.
So, one vote for falsely screaming "FIRE" in a crowded theater.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:23 AM   #36
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So, one vote for falsely screaming "FIRE" in a crowded theater.
So, one vote like authoritarian control, move to China
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:34 AM   #37
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So, one vote for falsely screaming "FIRE" in a crowded theater.
That's what the elementary school teachers with concealed carry permits and Sig 9 mm are for. You yell fire, you get shot.

Let's get some Marshall Law up in this mutha****a!
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:44 AM   #38
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As an agnostic Conservative, I hope members of this church realize they are not following the example left by Jesus, they are not following Christian doctrine.
They are not real Baptists. They believe only a few are selected to be saved, and nobody else can be converted no matter how hard they pray or believe. They claim God hates almost everyone. They freely admit they are spreading God's hate.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:51 AM   #39
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Religion is a scary mind control tool.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:24 AM   #40
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Religion is a scary mind control tool.
These nuts give religion a bad name...
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:17 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

wow breezing through this i was shocked to find out the IRS of course does make churches account for things with forms. They even tax some church busineses. Looks like the IRS is all over this FED! you made it sound like churches never have to show where any of the money goes. Looks like the govt has a form for that dip****. Just like they do everything.
If you'd bothered to actually inform yourself, you'd have learned that form 990 is what non-profits (other than churches) are required to fill out which details how their income is used.

Religious organizations (e.g. Catholic hospitals) are not exempt, but "chuches" are. See: Church of Scientology, WBC, Mormon Chuch, etc. Just not the parts of their organizations that they decide to admit are for profit.

"The following is a list of some of the organizations that are not required to file Form 990,
990-EZ or 990-N .
■ Churches (as opposed to “religious organizations,” defined earlier)
■ Inter-church organizations of local units of a church
■ Mission societies sponsored by or affiliated with one or more churches or church
denomination, if more than half of the activities are conducted in, or directed at, persons
in foreign countries
■ An exclusively religious activity of any religious order"


See page 22 OF YOUR OWN LINK.


Also from your own ****ing link, other special privileges given to churches:

* Automatic Exemption (p 3)
* Special tax free compensation to church employees, i.e. parsonage (p 19)


And as far as auditing, in 1984 the Church Audit Procedures Act which places restrictions on the auditing authority (specifically the IRS's ability to audit whether or not a church is in compliance with tax law) of the IRS that are greater than other non-profits. See section 7611.

In particular, it indicates that an audit can only be initiated if a "sufficiently high ranking Treasury officer" believes the church is breaking the law. The supposed purpose is to protect the church from "political based harassment".

Of course, no other non-profit (even political ones like the NRA or the ACLU) enjoy such special consideration.

The glaring oversight of the law, of course, is that it does not indicate who a "sufficiently high ranking Treasure officer" is, so the IRS has actually (recently) halted any audits:

"BNA Daily Report for Executives dated 10/22/2012 (subscription required) reports that the the Internal Revenue Service has temporarily suspended tax audits of churches pending final adoption of IRS rule changes to clarify which high level Treasury official has authority to make a determination under IRC Sec. 7611 that there are reasonable grounds to begin a church tax inquiry…"

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/irs-...are-finalized/

(that site it quoting a Bloomburg piece)
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:16 PM   #42
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I don't get it...why do these kooks have a beef with the kids funerals?
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:38 PM   #43
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They do this for attention and the media oblige.

As outrageous as this stuff is, if you read the Old Testament, this kind of stuff DID happen as a matter of God's judgment. Plagues, bear attacks, invasions, you name it.
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