OT - Thoughts on the anniversary of Apollo 17

[broncosteven]

On this day 40 years ago the crew of Apollo 17, (Ronald Evans, Eugene Cernan, Harrision Schmitt) splashed down returning to Earth after a successful 12 day mission. Cernan and Schmitt spent over 3 days on the surface of the moon setting records for longest stay on the surface, most samples returned, longest lunar orbit, and distance away from the LM.

Gene Cernan spoke these words as he left the last step man has placed on the surface of the moon:

"I'm on the surface; and, as I take man's last step from the surface, back home for some time to come — but we believe not too long into the future — I'd like to just [say] what I believe history will record. That America's challenge of today has forged man's destiny of tomorrow. And, as we leave the Moon at Taurus-Littrow, we leave as we came and, God willing, as we shall return: with peace and hope for all mankind. Godspeed the crew of Apollo 17."

Sadly we have yet to either return to the moon or reach for another grand attempt of exploration or other destiny shaping goals. Many felt the cost of Mercury/Gemini/Apollo missions was misspent, that the money could have been used on Earth to build a Utopia on our one tiny foothold in our vast universe, solving social, political, and economic issues and creating a planet of peace.

Sadly our record over the past 40 years continues to be marked by violence, greed, corruption, war, genocide, and famine among other things. Instead of spending billions of dollars to explore the backyard of our solar system we have given that money to bail out failing banks. Rather than use the money cut from the latter Apollo missions to create a Utopia we have seen a scourge of crack cocaine and AIDS, we have sent our own to die in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afganistan, we have seen genocide in Sarajevo and throughout Africa after telling the world at the end of WWII genocide would never happen again.

Back in July of this year I posted the following thread marking the anniversary of the Apollo 11 landing: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...43&postcount=1
Sadly that day was marked by an outbreak of violence in our nation, sadly this post comes in the wake of yet another outbreak of violence even more deadly and heinous.

I write all this begging that we as Americans decide to take on the challenges of our ancestors. That we choose to explore because we as a people will be better for having tried. Making grand goals and working together to accomplish the impossible are things we need to do if we will grow as a band of brothers. Turning inward and putting our needs 1st will only set us back. Giving our children a challenge that rewards hard work, knowledge and perseverance will bind us in ways fear will not. Put people to work on projects so grand that they need school, experience and dedication in their lives. We have drifted aimlessly for too long, jumping from one fiscal cliff to another.

We have carved out a foothold here on the only place in this universe that we can thrive yet we pollute it and damage it. The people who build this country left other continents on trips that lasted months leaving everything behind to come to America to build a better life. Do we wait until it is too late, pushing the burden to later generations to fix the problems we are creating or do we make a grand effort to look for ways outside the current box we are in and find ways to survive, thrive, and gather resources in other harsher environs?

On this anniversary of the end of human kinds greatest feat I ask that we start aiming for the stars and not at each other. I ask that we do not wait another 40 years, further depleting resources, polluting the Earth, watching acts of violence multiply and greed destroy us. I ask that we demand better of ourselves and our leaders now!

[maven]

Make it so.

[BroncsRule]

I remember watching the "blast off" from the lunar surface. 17 was the first (and last) time they set up a color camera with a live feed, pointing back toward the LEM.

Good times. Money well spent. We've wasted 30 - 50 times that much money since on, what, exactly?

Where's my f#@#'n Utopia!

At the very least, I want the flying car I was promised.

[Kaylore]

In two years, Marty McFly will have flying cars!

[Requiem]

When someone smokes a blunt or drops LSD on the moon, let us know! SEND GENE KRANZ IN TO GO HARD.

[Rohirrim]

We should already be rolling across the surface of Mars from one geodesic dome shelter to another, like Ray Bradbury envisioned. I guess it's more important for us to flush our wealth down the ****hole of the military/industrial/congressional complex. Has there been a single day in the last forty years where our troops have not been engaged in some bull**** mission overseas, protecting everybody's interests but our own? This is not what George Washington had in mind.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

We should already be rolling across the surface of Mars from one geodesic dome shelter to another, like Ray Bradbury envisioned. I guess it's more important for us to flush our wealth down the ****hole of the military/industrial/congressional complex. Has there been a single day in the last forty years where our troops have not been engaged in some bull**** mission overseas, protecting everybody's interests but our own? This is not what George Washington had in mind.

Amen, Ro.

I'll go to Mars. Don't even train me. Just blast me off into outerspace.

[jerseyguy4]

I have always loved the NASA space program, even if it was a watered down version of what took place in the Apollo era.

The Space Shuttles were awesome in their day. In the 90's a whirlwind of ideas floated about what would replace the shuttle program. Excitement was abuzz about the X-33 project, Skylon, Venturestar, and other similar projects. And then, they were all cancelled shortly after 2000.

The space shuttle replacement was changed to the Constellation project. Basically we went from space shuttles and decided to take a step all the way back to big rockets with people-pods screwed to the top of them. Personally, I thought it was a pathetic embarrassment of a program, which decided to settle on mediocrity.

And then, we even cancelled that.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Hey, you voted for the President and you knew what you were voting for...so why are you complaining?

No I didn't. Dumb assumption. Baseless. Besides, is Obama now responsible for the last forty years of policy? Really, really dumb.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Well, he's certainly responsible for the last 4 years, and the next 4 years...and even if you didn't vote for him...you staunchly defended his policies at every turn, and continue to do so.

Also, why wouldn't you also complain about inordinate amount of taxpayer dollars that go towards servicing the debt, welfare, pensions, or over-priced healthcare?

Defense spending is mandated by the Constitution. Space exploration is not.

No I didn't. Why do you think I didn't vote for him? You seem to suffer from chronic logic issues.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by pricejj

You voted for Obama too. You look pretty stupid complaining about his policies.

America has been dwindling its efforts in space exploration long before Obama even ran for public office. However, legislation brought up in the House (Republican controlled) took down what he had been looking for by roughly ~ 150 - 200 million dollars. (Based off it's introduction in May.)

NASA's proposed budget allocation in regards to % of the federal budget is lower, but higher in billions of dollars nominally allocated except for a few years (I believe 90-91) since 1970. So essentially, outside two years of George H.W. Bush, Obama has had more money (in billions) spent on the NASA program than every other President since before Nixon (1970).

You were saying?

[Requiem]

I'm pretty sure Ro said he voted for Rocky Anderson. . .

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Here is one of your posts:



Looks like you support the current administration's policies to me...so much so that you advocate that "all of these economic issues would be resolved tomorrow" if only Obama, Reid, and Pelosi had their way permanently. This administration has started and continued unnumerable wars and conflicts over the past 4 years. You simply hide a blind eye to it.

You are the worst form of hypocrite.

Actually, I support Krugman's take. The Dems are closest to him, but even then, not far enough. Bernie Sanders is much closer than the Dems. The Republicans, on the other hand, are so completely and ridiculously extremist in the wrong direction on the fiscal cliff issue (which is bull**** anyway) that who in their right mind could support them? So yeah, if the Republicans disappeared tomorrow, the issue would be resolved and the nominally "correct" decisions made, and we would be headed in the right direction. So, I marginally support Obama, with caveats, on this one issue. Even then, like Bernie warned us, Obama already seems to be caving.

Bush created the $1 trillion dollar unfunded, unnecessary war. So I guess a lot of that money could have been spent on space exploration. I see Obama's stimulus as a direct result of the closing down of Glass/Steagle (Clinton's fault) and the subsequent deregulation of Wall Street (Bush). Everybody gets a piece of the **** pie.

What are you? A child? You were wrong. It happens. Maybe if you thought of political questions as a little less black/white you'd suffer a little less anxiety about them?

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by pricejj

George Washington, and the other founding fathers wrote into the Constitution for taxpayers to provide for the self Defense of this nation.

The DID NOT write into the U.S. Constitution that it was necessary for taxpayer's to subsidize exploration of any form...nor any of the various Social programs that you promote.

Helvering v. Davis. You might want to start researching some constitutional law.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by pricejj

George Washington, and the other founding fathers wrote into the Constitution for taxpayers to provide for the self Defense of this nation.

The DID NOT write into the U.S. Constitution that it was necessary for taxpayer's to subsidize exploration of any form...nor any of the various Social programs that you promote.

The exploration of space is a primary national security issue. Providing for the defense does not require us to spend four times more than the rest of the world combined. We still have the Atlantic Ocean on one side, and the Pacific on the other, last I checked. If you want to get strictly originalist about it, the founders were also opposed to standing armies.

Wrong again, Garibaldi.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Who cares? Obama has also spent more money and ran up more debt than all other Presidents combined.

I don't promote spending tax dollars on space exploration, if we have to borrow (or print) money to do it.

You tried to insinuate that I voted for a guy whose policies are destructing NASA. All I did was conveniently point out that Obama is funding NASA at a higher level compared to every President outside two years of George H.W. Bush since Nixon's inaugural year in 1970. Why you decided to come in here and insult Ro and I and make this about Obama is beyond me. Well, no it isn't, because that is what petulant people like you do. You keep on stepping into the batters box and are about three seconds ahead swinging on a breaking ball. It must be frustrating to wake up every day realizing that you are that obtuse.

Grow up.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Exactly, you are even further to the left then Democrats. And somehow you have the nerve to post that Washington and the Founding Fathers would support deficit spending for space exploration...yet not support defending the nation.

You are so far from reality that it's not even funny.

I know it's hard to believe, but the modern Dems are not very left anymore. Rupert Murdoch, the Right Wing Scream Machine, the Tea Party, and their Republican tools have pegged this country so far over to the extremist Right that the centrists look like a bunch of Bolsheviks.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by pricejj

I didn't insinuate anything. You voted for Obama, but pretend that you don't support his military policies. Which is false, because if you didn't support his military policies, you wouldn't have voted for him twice.

I guarantee you, a whole bunch of Americans didn't agree with Romney on every issue, but voted for him anyway. Why? Because you only get two choices. Take a breather, cupcake.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Helvering vs. Davis wasn't written into the Constitution. If you think it was, you are wrong. It was a Supreme Court Decision decided by liberal judges from 1937...a full 150 years after the Constitution was written.

. . . ya missed the point.

[milehighJC]

Originally Posted by broncosteven

"I'm on the surface; and, as I take man's last step from the surface, back home for some time to come — but we believe not too long into the future — I'd like to just [say] what I believe history will record. That America's challenge of today has forged man's destiny of tomorrow. And, as we leave the Moon at Taurus-Littrow, we leave as we came and, God willing, as we shall return: with peace and hope for all mankind. Godspeed the crew of Apollo 17."

Thanks for posting this reminder... It brings back many wonderful and treasured memories. It is truly sad that we have stepped away from exploring one of our last and greatest frontiers.

I am, and always will be a space geek. I was proud of what we accomplished, even in the face of Challenger and Columbia disasters. I would have happily stepped onto the next shuttle without question or concern. Great achievements come at a high price.

When as a species we stop exploring the unknown, we are a step closer to our collective end. Sadly, it seems we have turned on ourselves, and focused our energy on the wrong things. Instead of investing our time, energy, and resources in the next great explorational achievement, we flounder in political infighting and divisiveness - defined not by the victory of achievement but by ensuring the failure of our opponent - which is non other than... ourselves.

I know... fluffy stuff, but I do hope we will return. Soon.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Wow, do you ever live in a bizarro universe.

Down is up, and what's wrong is right?

You advocate bankrupting the U.S. with overspending, and printing money...and claim it is the correct form of action. Even though it has been proven to fail. That "everybody else" is wrong. You can keep pushing your Socialist agenda all you want, but don't EVER try to attribute your twisted form of so-called "government" to what the Founding Father's would have intended.

Keynes was right. Obviously, supply side is wrong. Austerity is idiotic. We have actual results to look at. Facts is facts. I know it's not ideologically satisfying.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by pricejj

I didn't insinuate anything. You voted for Obama, but pretend that you don't support his military policies. Which is false, because if you didn't support his military policies, you wouldn't have voted for him twice.

You live in an awfully black and white world. My state does not allow write-in's for POTUS. If it did, I would have gladly placed John Hunstman down with my vote. My choices were Obama, Romney, Goode and Johnson.

My senior thesis in POLS was entitled: "Obama's Graveyard: The Failed Foreign Policy Endeavors of AfPak." (Hint: I was highly critical of it and still am.)

You keep on making more assertions and assumptions, but we all know that is what you do. Grasping at whatever straws you can. Stop derailing Steven's thread. Seriously, I think someone took a dump in the produce department. Go sweep it up!

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Keynes didn't support what Krugman and the Democrats are doing. Keynes supported deficit spending during economic contractions. The U.S. has not been in economic contraction for 3 years. Obama is still running $1T deficits with no end in site. You have no support from history.

Austerity is the Socialist European form of trying to get debt under control. If you look at their budgets, you would see that they are deficit spending...and raising taxes, precisely what Obama, Krugman, the Democrats, and you support. And of course it is failing, it has always failed, and always will fail.

You're making **** up again. Bye.

[broncosteven]

Originally Posted by pricejj

George Washington, and the other founding fathers wrote into the Constitution for taxpayers to provide for the self Defense of this nation.

The DID NOT write into the U.S. Constitution that it was necessary for taxpayer's to subsidize exploration of any form...nor any of the various Social programs that you promote.

Thanks for ****ting all over my thread a-hole.

After Spuntnik the space race became a self defense measure. None of the founding fathers ever saw a plane or a car or even a railway system how can any say they would not support taxation to develop infrastructure for cars, trains, planes or access to space for colonization that would strengthen the economy of our nation?

America was built off slave labor and the plunder of its once vast resources, why not explore, and plunder resources of the other worlds in our own back yard. The moons of Saturn and Jupiter have oceans and volcanic activity, our own moon collided with the Earth eaons ago, it has the same chemical makeup, we find ways to mine for gold, diamonds, and maybe we can stop strip mining here, we are leveling mountains for gold dust. Who knows what untapped resources are out there with in our grasp?

Thinking small leads to small things, thinking grand leads to grand things.

Sadly we are impacting our environment by the way we live. When do we decide not to live in the past of our founding fathers and live our lives in the present where we can do things that were totally unimaginable to a slave owner living in the late 18th century?

[jerseyguy4]

Originally Posted by broncosteven

Thanks for ****ting all over my thread a-hole.

After Spuntnik the space race became a self defense measure. None of the founding fathers ever saw a plane or a car or even a railway system how can any say they would not support taxation to develop infrastructure for cars, trains, planes or access to space for colonization that would strengthen the economy of our nation?

America was built off slave labor and the plunder of its once vast resources, why not explore, and plunder resources of the other worlds in our own back yard. The moons of Saturn and Jupiter have oceans and volcanic activity, our own moon collided with the Earth eaons ago, it has the same chemical makeup, we find ways to mine for gold, diamonds, and maybe we can stop strip mining here, we are leveling mountains for gold dust. Who knows what untapped resources are out there with in our grasp?

Thinking small leads to small things, thinking grand leads to grand things.

Sadly we are impacting our environment by the way we live. When do we decide not to live in the past of our founding fathers and live our lives in the present where we can do things that were totally unimaginable to a slave owner living in the late 18th century?

There are 3 industries/areas that have historically proved awesome to create further advances in so many different fields. They are:
- war
- exploration / space exploration
- porn