The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Jibba Jabba > War, Religion and Politics Thread
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-19-2012, 09:03 AM   #526
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 54,399

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elsid13 View Post
Do you actually believe that someone that has little experience or actually training is capable of performing effective CQC without increase risk to other innocent bystanders in chaotic environment? I have watched trained experience professional make mistakes in training that would have resulted in death of their squad mates or innocents and they know what they are doing.

There is reason that the military and law enforcement spends hundred of hours training and train some more to handle the kinds of situations. We as country need to give up the myth that bystander with a gun is going make the right decision in very fluid stressful environment.

I have no problem with gun ownership or use, but we need stop lying to ourselves in believing that concealed weapons carriers are the solution to this problem.
Everybody pictures themselves as "The Man With No Name", with a cold eye, staring down the sights of their pistol while carefully aiming at the bad guy, ice running through their veins. The reality is more like Laurel and Hardy, hiding behind a trash can, firing wildly into the ceiling.
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 09:22 AM   #527
Jekyll15Hyde
Anti Frown Cannon & McD..
 
Jekyll15Hyde's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,774
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
I wonder how many died from alcohol related accidents.
Do the words primary and secondary mean anything to you? Is the primary intent of consuming alcohol to inflict harm/pain/death? No, it is an unfortunate secondary effect.
Jekyll15Hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 09:32 AM   #528
jerseyguy4
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
Secondly, we always hear about "ohhhhh but what if someone breaks into your home??" Now I know you conservative types either don't understand or don't believe in statistics, but let's take a look at some facts anyway, just for thrills. Does having a gun in the home really make people safer?

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/753058
Says I have to log in to see this, which I didn't. Should we just assume you have posted "facts"?

skipping down....

Quote:
- (Here's a one especially for Bronco Fanatic, who mentioned the Kennesaw law in an earlier thread) The deterrent effects of civilian gun ownership on burglary rates were supposedly shown by the experiences of Morton Grove, Illinois—after it banned handguns—and Kennesaw, Georgia— after it required that firearms be kept in all homes. Again, a careful analysis of the data did not show that guns reduced crime. Instead, in Morton Grove, the banning of handguns was actually followed by a large and statistically significant decrease in burglary reports.
...
Science!
Your quote was from a 2006 book called "Private Guns, "Public Health"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesa...472-03162-7-21

I do not think that you, posting a link to an article, which is quoting from some book, can state that this is "fact". Being in a book does not make fact. Showing us the data behind it, however, would at least show hypothesis.
In fact, it sort of makes me think your entire article might not be based in fact, but instead is a paper with an agenda.

Aside from that...for one moment, please think. Do you believe that a town, where any local potential burglar knows that every household contains a firearm, will have similar burglary rates to a similar town where no one owns a firearm?
I don't think you can believe that
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 09:34 AM   #529
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll15Hyde View Post
Do the words primary and secondary mean anything to you? Is the primary intent of consuming alcohol to inflict harm/pain/death? No, it is an unfortunate secondary effect.
Well I don't think it's fair to say the primary intent of guns is to shoot innocent people. We're capable of a little more discernment than that aren't we?

Besides, I was responding to someone counting accidental deaths from guns in the less-than-hundreds over 4 years. Asking "Why focus on that?" while alcohol-related accidents kill tens of thousands each and every year is not quite the same as arguing whether enjoying a turkey and coke is more important than enjoying a real wild turkey.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 09:40 AM   #530
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseyguy4 View Post
Says I have to log in to see this, which I didn't. Should we just assume you have posted "facts"?

skipping down....


Your quote was from a 2006 book called "Private Guns, "Public Health"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesa...472-03162-7-21

I do not think that you, posting a link to an article, which is quoting from some book, can state that this is "fact". Being in a book does not make fact. Showing us the data behind it, however, would at least show hypothesis.
In fact, it sort of makes me think your entire article might not be based in fact, but instead is a paper with an agenda.

Aside from that...for one moment, please think. Do you believe that a town, where any local potential burglar knows that every household contains a firearm, will have similar burglary rates to a similar town where no one owns a firearm?
I don't think you can believe that
This gets to an important factor in school shootings. And partly even the Aurora shooting. It's psychological. This particular breed of psycho specifically targets the helpless. Doing anything to diminish that perception of defenselessness would do good beyond the actual capacity to defend.

There's a reason these guys don't go walking into police stations.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 09:43 AM   #531
Kaylore
Shall we begin?
 
Kaylore's Avatar
 
You should have let me sleep!

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ceti Alpha V
Posts: 45,930

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Pat Bowlen
Default

I think it's time to move this to the WRP forum.
Kaylore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 09:47 AM   #532
Meck77
.
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 16,642
Default

Elsid...Would you mind providing the data on how many innocent innocent people were killed by concealed weapon carriers in the last few years?

I see your profile says DC. I landed here this morning and am within a mile of the capital. The cameras, the blacked out cars, the police, the concrete barriers, the sirens going off.....I don't blame you for thinking that the government could and should fix all. Hell this town thrives off the idea that they are suppose to fix everything.

Ro...I think there is a cowboy in you longing to get out of the city and start living!
Trade that lap top in for a .357. Get yourself some land and livestock. Find a community like I'm talking about Ro. You'll love it! It's not for everyone luckily! That leaves plenty of room for us laurel and hardy types to misfire! lol!

Last edited by Meck77; 12-19-2012 at 09:49 AM..
Meck77 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 11:16 AM   #533
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseyguy4 View Post
Says I have to log in to see this, which I didn't. Should we just assume you have posted "facts"?

skipping down....


Your quote was from a 2006 book called "Private Guns, "Public Health"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesa...472-03162-7-21

I do not think that you, posting a link to an article, which is quoting from some book, can state that this is "fact". Being in a book does not make fact. Showing us the data behind it, however, would at least show hypothesis.
In fact, it sort of makes me think your entire article might not be based in fact, but instead is a paper with an agenda.

Aside from that...for one moment, please think. Do you believe that a town, where any local potential burglar knows that every household contains a firearm, will have similar burglary rates to a similar town where no one owns a firearm?
I don't think you can believe that
Don't like the message, shoot the messenger.

The article was written for the American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine, and the book and the article both were written by David Hemenway, PhD Harvard Injury Control Research Center, Harvard School of Public Health. What exactly are your credentials on the subject? By the way, there are over 100 references in the article. Feel free to research them all.


Quote:
References

Lizotte AJ, Bordua DJ. Firearms ownership for sport and protection: two divergent models. Am Sociol Rev. 1980;45:229–244.

Glaeser EL, Glendon S. Who owns guns? Criminals, victims, and the culture of violence. Am Econ Rev. 1998;88:458–462.

Hemenway D, Barber C, Miller M. Unintentional firearm deaths: a comparison of other-inflicted and self-inflicted shootings. Accid Anal Prev. 2010;42:1184–1188.

Richardson EG, Hemenway D. Homicide, suicide, and unintentional firearm fatality: comparing the United States with other high-income countries, 2003 [published online ahead of print June 21, 2010]. J Trauma. doi: 10.1097/TA. 0b013e3181dbaddf

Centers for Disease Control. Rates of homicide, suicide and firearm-related death among children, 26 industrialized countries. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 1997;46:101–105. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046149.htm. Accessed December 17, 2010.

Centers for Disease Control. WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports, 1999–2007. http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html. Accessed December 17, 2010.

Miller M, Azrael D, Hemenway D. Firearm availability and unintentional firearm deaths. Accid Anal Prev. 2001;33:477–484.

Price JH, Thompson AJ, Dake JA. Factors associated with state variations in homicide, suicide, and unintentional firearm deaths. J Community Health. 2004;29:271–283.

Miller M, Azrael D, Hemenway D, Vriniotis M. Firearm storage practices and rates of unintentional firearm deaths in the United States. Accid Anal Prev. 2005;37:661–667.

Vyrostek S, Annest J, Ryan G. Surveillance for fatal and nonfatal injuries-United States 2001. MMWR Surveill Summ. 2004;53(SS-7):1–57.

Sinauer N, Annest JL, Mercy JA. Unintentional, nonfatal firearm-related injuries: a preventable public health burden. JAMA. 1996;275:1740–1743.

Hemenway D. Private Guns Public Health. Ann Arbor, MI: University of Michigan Press; 2006.

Katcher ML, Meister AN, Sorkness CA, et al. Use of the modified Delphi technique to identify and rate home injury hazard risks and prevention methods for young children. Inj Prev. 2006;12:189–194.

Peterson LG, Peterson M, O'Shanick GJ, Swann A. Self-inflicted gunshot wounds: lethality of method versus intent. Am J Psychiatry. 1985;142:228–231.

Owens D, Horrocks J, House A. Fatal and non-fatal repetition of self-harm. Br J Psychiatry. 2002;181:193–199.

Gibb SJ, Beautrais AL, Fergusson DM. Mortality and further suicidal behaviour after an index suicide attempt: a 10-year study. Aust N Z J Psychiatry. 2005;39:95–100.

Jamison KR. Night Falls Fast: Understanding Suicide. New York, NY: Knopf; 1999.

Miller M, Hemenway D. The relationship between firearms and suicide: a review of the literature. Aggress Violent Behav. 1999;4:807–814.

Brent DA, Perper JA, Goldstein CE, et al. Risk factors for adolescent suicide: a comparison of adolescent suicide victims with suicidal inpatients. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1988;45:581–588.

Brent DA, Perper JA, Allman CJ, Moritz GM, Wartella ME, Zelenak JP. The presence and accessibility of firearms in the homes of adolescent suicides: a case-control study. JAMA. 1991;266:2989–2995.

Brent DA, Perper J, Moritz G, Baugher M, Allman C. Suicide in adolescents with no apparent psychopathology. J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 1993;32:494–500.

Brent DA, Perper JA, Moritz G, Baugher M, Schweers J, Roth C. Firearms and adolescent suicide: a community casecontrol study. Am J Dis Child. 1993;147:1066–1071.

Brent DA, Perper JA, Moritz G, Baugher M, Schweers J, Roth C. Suicide in affectively ill adolescents: a case-control study. J Affect Disord. 1994;31:193–202.

Brent DA, Baugher M, Bridge J, Chen T, Chiappetta L. Age- and sex-related risk factors for adolescent suicide. J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 1999;38:1497–1505.

Conwell Y, Duberstein PR, Connor K, Eberly S, Cox C, Caine ED. Access to firearms and risk for suicide in middle-aged and older adults. Am J Geriatr Psychiatry. 2002;10:407–416.

Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. Suicide in the home in relation to gun ownership. N Engl J Med. 1992;327:467–472.

Cummings P, Koepsell TD, Grossman DC, Savarino J, Thompson RS. The association between the purchase of a handgun and homicide or suicide. Am J Public Health. 1997;87:974–978.

Kung HC, Pearson JL, Liu X. Risk factors for male and female suicide decedents ages 15–64 in the United States: results from the 1993 National Mortality Followback Survey. Soc Psychiatry Psychiatr Epidemiol. 2003;38:419–426.

Kung HC, Pearson JL, Wei R. Substance use, firearm availability, depressive symptoms, and mental health service utilization among white and African American suicide decedents aged 15 to 64 years. Ann Epidemiol. 2005;15:614–621.

Dahlberg LL, Ikeda RM, Kresnow MJ. Guns in the home and risk of a violent death in the home: findings from a national study. Am J Epidemiol. 2004;160:929–936.

Wiebe DJ. Homicide and suicide risks associated with firearms in the home: a national case-control study. Ann Emerg Med. 2003;41:771–782.

Shah S, Hoffman RE, Wake L, Marine WM. Adolescent suicide and household access to firearms in Colorado: results of a case-control study. J Adolesc Health. 2000;26:157–163.

Grassel KM, Wintemute GJ, Wright MA, Romero MP. Association between handgun purchase and mortality from firearm injury. Inj Prev. 2003;9:48–52.

Shenassa ED, Rogers ML, Spalding KL, Roberts MB. Safer storage of firearms at home and risk of suicide: a study of protective factors in a nationally representative sample. J Epidemiol Community Health. 2004;58:841–848.

Grossman DC, Mueller BA, Riedy C, et al. Gun storage practices and risk of youth suicide and unintentional firearm injuries. JAMA. 2005;293:707–714.

Wintemute GJ, Parham CA, Beaumont JJ, Wright M, Drake C. Mortality among recent purchasers of handguns. N Engl J Med. 1999;341:1583–1589.

Markush R, Bartolucci A. Firearms and suicide in the United States. Am J Public Health. 1984;64:123–127.

Lester D. Firearm availability and the incidence of suicide and homicide. Acta Psychiatr Belg. 1988;88:387–393.

Birkmayer J, Hemenway D. Suicide and gun prevalence: are youth disproportionately affected? Suicide Life Threat Behav. 2001;31:303–310.

Lester D. Availability of guns and the likelihood of suicide. Sociol Soc Res. 1987;71:287–288.

Lester D. Gun ownership and suicide in the United States. Psychol Med. 1989;19:519–521.

Hellsten JJ. Motivation and Opportunity: An Ecological Investigation of U.S. Urban Suicide, 1970–1990. Irvine, CA: University of California; 1995.

Miller M, Lippmann S, Azrael D, Hemenway D. Household firearm ownership and rates of suicide across the 50 U.S. states. J Trauma. 2007;62:1029–1035.

Miller M, Azrael D, Hemenawy D. Household firearm ownership levels and suicide across U.S. regions and states, 0 1988–1997. Epidemiology. 2002;13:517–524.

Kleck G, Patterson EB. The impact of gun control and gun ownership levels on violence rates. J Quant Criminol. 1993;9:249–287.

Miller M, Azrael D, Hepburn L, Hemenway D. The association between changes in household firearm ownership and rates of suicide in the United States, 1981–2002. Inj Prev. 2006;12:178–182.

Kessler R, Berglund P, Borges G, Nock M, Wang PS. Trends in suicide ideation, plans, gestures, and attempts in the United States, 1990–1992 to 2001–2003. JAMA. 2005;293:2487–2495.

Sorenson SB, Vittes KA. Mental health and firearms in community-based surveys: implications for suicide prevention. Eval Rev. 2008;32:239–256.

Oslin DW, Zubritsky C, Brown G, Mullahy M, Puliafico A, Ten Have T. Managing suicide risk in late life: Access to firearms as a public health risk. Am J Geriatr Psychiatry. 2004;12:30–36.

Miller M, Barber C, Azrael D, Hemenway D, Molnar BE. Recent psychopathology, suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts in households with and without firearms: findings from the National Comorbidity Study Replication. Inj Prev. 2009;15:183–187.

Ilgen M, Zivin K, McCammon R, Valenstein M. Mental illness, previous suicidality, and access to guns in the United States. Psychiatr Serv. 2008;59:198–200.

Berman A, Brown R, Diaz G, et al. Consensus statement on youth suicide by firearms. Arch Suicide Res. 1998;4:89–94.

Mann JJ, Apter A, Bertolote J, et al. Suicide prevention strategies: a systematic review. JAMA. 2005;294:2064–2074.

Miller M, Azrael D, Hemenway D. Rates of household firearm ownership and homicide across US regions and states, 1988–1997. Am J Public Health. 2002;92:1988–1993.

Miller M, Hemenway D, Azrael D. Statelevel homicide victimization rates in the US in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001–2003. Soc Sci Med. 2007;64:656–664.

Zimring FE. The medium is the message: firearms caliber as a determinant of death from assault. J Legal Stud. 1972;1:97–123.

Hepburn L, Hemenawy D. Firearm availability and homicide: a review of the literature. Aggress Violent Behav. 2004;9:417–440.

Hemenway D, Miller M. Firearm availability and homicide rates across twentysix high-income countries. J Trauma. 2000;49:985–988.

Brearly HC. Homicide in the United States. Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press; 2003.

Seitz ST. Firearms, homicide, and gun control effectiveness. Law Soc Rev. 1972;6:595–614.

Lester D. Relationship between firearm availability and primary and secondary murder. Psychol Rep. 1990;67:490.

Ruddell R, Mays G. State background checks and firearm homicides. J Crim Justice. 2005;33:127–136.

Duggan M. More guns more crime. J Polit Econ. 2001;109:1086–1114.

Cook P, Ludwig J. The social costs of gun ownership. J Public Econ. 2006;90:379–391.

Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, Rushforth NB, et al. Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home. N Engl J Med. 1993;329:1084–1091.

Rowland J, Holtzhauer F. Homicide involving firearms between family, relatives, and friends in Ohio: an offenderbased case-control study. Am J Epidemiol. 1989;130:825.

Kleck G, Hogan H. A national case control study of homicide offending and gun ownership. Soc Probl. 1999;46:175–193.

Hemenway D, Shinoda-Tagawa T, Miller M. Firearm availability and female homicide victimization rates among 25 populous high-income countries. J Am Med Womens Assoc. 2002;57:100–104.

Bailey JE, Kellermann AL, Somes GW, Banton JG, Rivara FP, Rushforth NP. Risk factors for violent death of women in the home. Arch Int Med. 1997;157:777–782.

Campbell JC, Webster D, Koziol-McLain J, et al. Risk factors for femicide in abusive relationships: results from a multi-site case control study. Am J Public Health. 2003;93:1089–1097.

Reiss AJ, Roth JA, eds. Understanding and Preventing Violence: Panel on the Understanding and Control of Violent Behavior. Washington, DC: National Academies Press; 1993.

Hastings JE, Hamberger LK. Personality characteristics of spouse abusers: a controlled comparison. Violence Vict. 1988;3:31–48.

Block C, Christakos A. Intimate partner homicide in Chicago over 29 years. Crime Delinq. 1995;41:496–526.

Hemenway D, Azrael D. Gun Use in the United States: Results of a National Survey. Washington, DC: National Institute of Justice; 1997.

Azrael D, Hemenway D. "In the safety of your own home": results from a national survey on gun use at home. Soc Sci Med. 2000;50:285–291.

Sorenson SB, Wiebe DJ. Weapons in the lives of battered women. Am J Public Health. 2004;94:1412–1417.

Rothman EF, Hemenway D, Miller M, Azrael D. Batterers' use of guns to threaten intimate partners. J Am Med Womens Assoc. 2005;60:62–68.

Catalano S. Victimization During Household Burglary. Washington, DC: US Department of Justice; 2010.

Bureau of Justice Statistics. Criminal Victimization in the United States 2007. Washington, DC: US Department of Justice; 2010.

Kleck G. Crime control through private use of armed forces. Soc Probl. 1988;35:1–21.

McDowall D, Lizotte AJ, Wiersema B. General deterrence through civilian gun ownership: an evaluation of the quasiexperimental evidence. Criminology. 1991;29:1085–1099.

McDowall D, Wiersema B, Loftin D. Did mandatory firearm ownership in Kennesaw really prevent burglary? Sociol Soc Res. 1989;74:48–51.

Lott JRJ. More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws. Chicago, IL: Univeristy of Chicago Press; 1998.

Kopel D. The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies. Buffalo, NY: Prometheus Books; 1992.

Kleck G. Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control. Hawthrone, NY: Aldine de Gruyter; 1997.

Mayhew P, van Dijk J. Criminal Victimization in Eleven Industrialized Countries: Key Findings From the International Crime Victimization Surveys. London, UK: Information and Publications Group; 1997.

Cook P, Ludwig J. Guns and burglary. In: Ludwig J, Cook P, eds. Evaluating Gun Policy. Washington, DC: Brookings Institute; 2003:74–107.

Wright JD, Rossi PH, Daly K. Under the Gun: Weapons, Crime, and Violence in America. Hawthorne, NY: Aldine Publishing; 1983.

National Research Council. Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review. Washington, DC: National Academy Press; 2005:89, 106.

Kellermann AL, Westphal L, Fischer L, Harvard B. Weapon involvement in home invasion crimes. JAMA. 1995;273:1759–1762.

Cook P, Ludwig J. Defensive gun uses: new evidence from a national survey. J Quant Criminol. 1998;14:111–131.

McDowall D, Loftin D, Presser S. Measuring civilian defensive firearm use: a methodological experiment. J Quant Criminol. 2000;16:1–19.

Cook P, Ludwig J. Guns in America: Results of a Comprehensive National Survey on Firearms Ownership and Use. Washington, DC: Police Foundation; 1996.

Hemenway D, Azrael D. The relative frequency of offensive and defensive gun use: results from a national survey. Violence Vict. 2000;15:257–272.

Hemenway D, Miller M, Azrael D. Gun use in the United States: results from two national surveys. Inj Prev. 2000;6:263–267.

Tark J, Kleck G. Resisting crime: the effects of victim action on the outcomes of crimes. Criminology. 2004;42:861–909.

Violence Policy Center. Unintended consequences: pro-handgun experts prove that handguns are a dangerous choice for selfdefense. http://vpc.org/studies/uninsum.htm. Accessed December 17, 2010.

Kellermann AL, Reay DT. Protection or peril? An analysis of firearm related deaths in the home. N Engl J Med. 1986;314:1557–1560.

Kellermann AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, Lee RK, Banton JG. Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home. J Trauma. 1998;42:263–267.

Lee RK, Waxweiler RJ, Dobbins JG, Paschetag T. Incidence rates of firearm injuries in Galveston, Texas, 1979–1981. Am J Epidemiol. 1991;134:511–521.

Firearm-related injuries affecting the pediatric population. Committee on Injury and Poison Prevention. American Academy of Pediatrics. Pediatrics. 2000;105(4, pt 1):888–895.
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 11:56 AM   #534
JLesSPE
Pro Bowler
 
JLesSPE's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Republic, MO
Posts: 539
Default

It seems to me there are a lot of extremist arguments in this thread. Ban guns or don't touch my guns. I am a gun enthusiast, to say the least. However, I am in no way content with the current gun control laws. It does no good to argue stats on if lives are saved or not by concealed weapons carriers, because it is a right to own, carry, and use guns in self defense. There has to be compromise. A RATIONAL dialogue must begin on a federal level. Some things that, as a moderate conservative gun owner, I would be willing to compromise on are as follows.

Legal person to person firearms sales - I've always thought this to be ridiculous. I can go buy a gun from my friend right now perfectly legally. Legal firearm sales should go through dealers so a NICS check can be performed and registration of the firearm is completed. I think if this law was put into effect and you were found to have sold a gun to someone who committed a crime with it you should be liable for that crime as well as the illegal sale.

I believe you should have to register a sufficient method of securing your weapons. I should have to be able to provide proof and registration that I own a safe in order to buy a gun. In a perfect situation the capacity of your safe is crosschecked with how many guns you've purchased. I hate the idea of the government knowing exactly how many guns I have, what guns they are, and what kind of safe I have. But if that's what has to happen for our rights to own and bear arms to remain then I can compromise.

I'm not willing to compromise on assault weapons. Where is the line? I get the full auto ban, there's nothing to be gained from the public owning such weapons. I'm a sports shooter and use assault rifles in competition regularly. Even in this type of event a fully automatic weapon has no place.

Magazine capacity limits. Useless. Reloads take less than 2 seconds. I realize this can be argued both ways but they already make the mags.

I just don't get the people that are against conceal and carry. I wish more training was required than the current model. Other than that if I feel that I need to carry a pistol out of the view of everyone else in order to protect myself I should be able to do so. You can carry a pocket knife, a baseball bat, a tire iron, a taser, whatever else. One I pull my pistol I am bound by certain laws which include not harming anyone not trying to kill me or someone else. For law abiding citizens, this isn't a big deal. All the issues come down to people that are willing to break the law and how to keep them from harming other people. They should not be allowed any kind of weapon, including firearms. Good luck trying to figure that out. Without proper mental health care and threat assessment it's all a moot point. Some dude wants to end his life and take others with him he'll drive his truck into people standing in line for something, or he'll pick up a rock and bash someone's head in. Terrible violent things are going to happen until we, as a nation, can identify those that need help and be willing to provide that help without ridicule.
JLesSPE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 11:58 AM   #535
Jekyll15Hyde
Anti Frown Cannon & McD..
 
Jekyll15Hyde's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,774
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
Well I don't think it's fair to say the primary intent of guns is to shoot innocent people. We're capable of a little more discernment than that aren't we?

Besides, I was responding to someone counting accidental deaths from guns in the less-than-hundreds over 4 years. Asking "Why focus on that?" while alcohol-related accidents kill tens of thousands each and every year is not quite the same as arguing whether enjoying a turkey and coke is more important than enjoying a real wild turkey.
The primary intent of guns is to inflict or threaten to inflict damage on something/someone whether as an aggressor or in self defense. I have heard too many times since this happened a comparison of something like DUIs, etc to gun related problems and it is a complete non sequitur.

But I didnt follow the exact chain of your response so I thought you were going down that road again.
Jekyll15Hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:03 PM   #536
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 54,399

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meck77 View Post
Elsid...Would you mind providing the data on how many innocent innocent people were killed by concealed weapon carriers in the last few years?

I see your profile says DC. I landed here this morning and am within a mile of the capital. The cameras, the blacked out cars, the police, the concrete barriers, the sirens going off.....I don't blame you for thinking that the government could and should fix all. Hell this town thrives off the idea that they are suppose to fix everything.

Ro...I think there is a cowboy in you longing to get out of the city and start living!
Trade that lap top in for a .357. Get yourself some land and livestock. Find a community like I'm talking about Ro. You'll love it! It's not for everyone luckily! That leaves plenty of room for us laurel and hardy types to misfire! lol!
Already have one.

It's a Ruger Blackhawk with a 6.5" barrel. Stainless Steel with rosewood grips. There's a pic of it somewhere on here in one of the old gun threads.
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:09 PM   #537
BroncoFanatic
Roaming Coloradan
 
BroncoFanatic's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Philadelphia area
Posts: 460

Adopt-a-Bronco:
t-mobile girl
Default

If a deranged drug-upped killer comes in to your kid's school, which classroom would you want him to be in:
  • the one with the teacher who will teach them to curl into a little ball and hide, hoping to avoid notice?
  • the one where the teacher will have them out of the way, while being ready with his/her own firearm, with which they are trained?
The liberal attitude on gun control contributed to deaths at Sandy Hook. An armed teacher, screened and trained properly, could have saved lives.

All you panty-waste libs can start crying now.
BroncoFanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:14 PM   #538
jerseyguy4
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
Don't like the message, shoot the messenger.

The article was written for the American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine, and the book and the article both were written by David Hemenway, PhD Harvard Injury Control Research Center, Harvard School of Public Health. What exactly are your credentials on the subject? By the way, there are over 100 references in the article. Feel free to research them all.
Don't pull yourself away from it now. My point before was that you stated these were "facts" and "science". I had heard something about the Kennesaw law, but didn't know or remember much. So I looked it up on a bunch of different sites. Not surprisingly, the issue spawned a lot of debate about what the law did, if anything at all.

I'll be happy to point you to what I read on the subject, which points out that the property crime rate in Kinnesaw in 2008 was 20 times lower than nereby Atlanta. I don't think that's necessary though, since it is no surprise.
In addition, I would just be quoting someone as you did. No, I have no credentials on criminology, nor do you.

Again, my point was you were claiming fact and science, when you really didn't see or know the numbers themselves. You merely quoted someone who quoted someone.

Back to the issue, I had asked you if you really believed that you would be safer from burglary in a town that demanded residents own guns versus a town that demanded residents couldn't own guns. You didn't answer, and I don't blame you. It's fairly rhetorical. Of course those without guns are less safe from burglary. We don't need studies to explain simple things and common logic.

Let's say I handed you two presents and told you to open one. Before you did, I informed you that opening the one on the left would trigger a bomb. Which would you choose? See?....just as rhetorical.

I do agree with a lot of what your fact-list said. Having guns increases the likelihood of gun related accidents, shootings, and suicide. Again, it's so logical that it is impossible to argue.
The choice for people to arm themselves really comes down to a choice between which dangers you wish to expose to you and your family. And when you do choose, it is then your responsibility to recognize those dangers and combat them as best you can.
- Don't arm yourself, and you will leave your family exposed in case of intruder entry. This is however, rare in most places. At least your family is protected from gun related accidents.
- Arm yourself, and do so in a prepared fashion, and you will be protected from intruders. With proper planning, you can minimize the other risks. If you do not, then don't be surprised when your kids find a gun and have an accident.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:14 PM   #539
Requiem
~~~
 
Requiem's Avatar
 
~ ~ ~

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Earth Division
Posts: 23,325

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Princes of Tara
Default

^ BAD QUESTION.

I want them home schooled in house with 40 guns!!!! BAAAM
Requiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:18 PM   #540
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 54,399

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

Maybe we should arm the kids?
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:24 PM   #541
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLesSPE View Post

I believe you should have to register a sufficient method of securing your weapons. I should have to be able to provide proof and registration that I own a safe in order to buy a gun. In a perfect situation the capacity of your safe is crosschecked with how many guns you've purchased. I hate the idea of the government knowing exactly how many guns I have, what guns they are, and what kind of safe I have. But if that's what has to happen for our rights to own and bear arms to remain then I can compromise.

I'm not willing to compromise on assault weapons. Where is the line? I get the full auto ban, there's nothing to be gained from the public owning such weapons. I'm a sports shooter and use assault rifles in competition regularly. Even in this type of event a fully automatic weapon has no place.
I find your application of the slippery slope argument to the second paragraph but not the first pretty arbitrary. All sorts of fun could be had with federalized gun safe requirements. And even some sort of registration for them. What about trigger locks? Why not biometrics? Wouldn't be long before they could make gun ownership quite an expense. Not to mention how in the world would they monitor it? I think I'd just rather let them have some kind of "assault rifle" cosmetics party where they decide how mean weapons should be allowed to look before banishment.

Quote:
I just don't get the people that are against conceal and carry. I wish more training was required than the current model. Other than that if I feel that I need to carry a pistol out of the view of everyone else in order to protect myself I should be able to do so. You can carry a pocket knife, a baseball bat, a tire iron, a taser, whatever else.
You can carry a gun too. With or without a permit. The idea that the same demographic willing and able to pull the trigger on innocent bystanders is going to sweat whether they have a concealed carry permit is one of the funnier ideas progressive politics has ever brought us.

Like most of these things, the only people punished are the ones who were never the problem.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:25 PM   #542
Dedhed
Ring of Famer
 
Dedhed's Avatar
 
Fare thee well

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,219

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Q Smith
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
That's already part of the equation.
How so?
Dedhed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:25 PM   #543
jerseyguy4
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLesSPE View Post
It seems to me there are a lot of extremist arguments in this thread. Ban guns or don't touch my guns. I am a gun enthusiast, to say the least. However, I am in no way content with the current gun control laws. It does no good to argue stats on if lives are saved or not by concealed weapons carriers, because it is a right to own, carry, and use guns in self defense. There has to be compromise. A RATIONAL dialogue must begin on a federal level. Some things that, as a moderate conservative gun owner, I would be willing to compromise on are as follows.

Legal person to person firearms sales - I've always thought this to be ridiculous. I can go buy a gun from my friend right now perfectly legally. Legal firearm sales should go through dealers so a NICS check can be performed and registration of the firearm is completed. I think if this law was put into effect and you were found to have sold a gun to someone who committed a crime with it you should be liable for that crime as well as the illegal sale.

I believe you should have to register a sufficient method of securing your weapons. I should have to be able to provide proof and registration that I own a safe in order to buy a gun. In a perfect situation the capacity of your safe is crosschecked with how many guns you've purchased. I hate the idea of the government knowing exactly how many guns I have, what guns they are, and what kind of safe I have. But if that's what has to happen for our rights to own and bear arms to remain then I can compromise.

I'm not willing to compromise on assault weapons. Where is the line? I get the full auto ban, there's nothing to be gained from the public owning such weapons. I'm a sports shooter and use assault rifles in competition regularly. Even in this type of event a fully automatic weapon has no place.

Magazine capacity limits. Useless. Reloads take less than 2 seconds. I realize this can be argued both ways but they already make the mags.

I just don't get the people that are against conceal and carry. I wish more training was required than the current model. Other than that if I feel that I need to carry a pistol out of the view of everyone else in order to protect myself I should be able to do so. You can carry a pocket knife, a baseball bat, a tire iron, a taser, whatever else. One I pull my pistol I am bound by certain laws which include not harming anyone not trying to kill me or someone else. For law abiding citizens, this isn't a big deal. All the issues come down to people that are willing to break the law and how to keep them from harming other people. They should not be allowed any kind of weapon, including firearms. Good luck trying to figure that out. Without proper mental health care and threat assessment it's all a moot point. Some dude wants to end his life and take others with him he'll drive his truck into people standing in line for something, or he'll pick up a rock and bash someone's head in. Terrible violent things are going to happen until we, as a nation, can identify those that need help and be willing to provide that help without ridicule.
great post, and I agree with most of what you said.

In NJ, there are basically no carry permits issued to the public, whether open or concealed. It is ridiculous. Handguns are home protection and target pratice only.

As you say, I would submit to stricter laws, so long as they make sense.
- I support a waiting period to buy a gun
- I support background checks
- I would even support a usage/safety test.
- I would also support something in place that would require ongoing background checks and ongoing testing. Cops are required in NJ to pass regular certification tests, why shouldn't gun owners? At the least, those that wish to carry in public. This would limit the public more than today, but at least those with guns would be considerably more reliable. I'll be happy to take that test, but I want to be able to carry in return.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:28 PM   #544
Dedhed
Ring of Famer
 
Dedhed's Avatar
 
Fare thee well

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,219

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Q Smith
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoFanatic View Post
If a deranged drug-upped killer comes in to your kid's school, which classroom would you want him to be in:
  • the one with the teacher who will teach them to curl into a little ball and hide, hoping to avoid notice?
  • the one where the teacher will have them out of the way, while being ready with his/her own firearm, with which they are trained?
The liberal attitude on gun control contributed to deaths at Sandy Hook. An armed teacher, screened and trained properly, could have saved lives.

All you panty-waste libs can start crying now.
This is a ridiculous over-simplification of the issue and sadly par for the course.
Dedhed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:34 PM   #545
Dedhed
Ring of Famer
 
Dedhed's Avatar
 
Fare thee well

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,219

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Q Smith
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLesSPE View Post
It seems to me there are a lot of extremist arguments in this thread. Ban guns or don't touch my guns. I am a gun enthusiast, to say the least. However, I am in no way content with the current gun control laws. It does no good to argue stats on if lives are saved or not by concealed weapons carriers, because it is a right to own, carry, and use guns in self defense. There has to be compromise. A RATIONAL dialogue must begin on a federal level. Some things that, as a moderate conservative gun owner, I would be willing to compromise on are as follows.

Legal person to person firearms sales - I've always thought this to be ridiculous. I can go buy a gun from my friend right now perfectly legally. Legal firearm sales should go through dealers so a NICS check can be performed and registration of the firearm is completed. I think if this law was put into effect and you were found to have sold a gun to someone who committed a crime with it you should be liable for that crime as well as the illegal sale.

I believe you should have to register a sufficient method of securing your weapons. I should have to be able to provide proof and registration that I own a safe in order to buy a gun. In a perfect situation the capacity of your safe is crosschecked with how many guns you've purchased. I hate the idea of the government knowing exactly how many guns I have, what guns they are, and what kind of safe I have. But if that's what has to happen for our rights to own and bear arms to remain then I can compromise.

I'm not willing to compromise on assault weapons. Where is the line? I get the full auto ban, there's nothing to be gained from the public owning such weapons. I'm a sports shooter and use assault rifles in competition regularly. Even in this type of event a fully automatic weapon has no place.

Magazine capacity limits. Useless. Reloads take less than 2 seconds. I realize this can be argued both ways but they already make the mags.

I just don't get the people that are against conceal and carry. I wish more training was required than the current model. Other than that if I feel that I need to carry a pistol out of the view of everyone else in order to protect myself I should be able to do so. You can carry a pocket knife, a baseball bat, a tire iron, a taser, whatever else. One I pull my pistol I am bound by certain laws which include not harming anyone not trying to kill me or someone else. For law abiding citizens, this isn't a big deal. All the issues come down to people that are willing to break the law and how to keep them from harming other people. They should not be allowed any kind of weapon, including firearms. Good luck trying to figure that out. Without proper mental health care and threat assessment it's all a moot point. Some dude wants to end his life and take others with him he'll drive his truck into people standing in line for something, or he'll pick up a rock and bash someone's head in. Terrible violent things are going to happen until we, as a nation, can identify those that need help and be willing to provide that help without ridicule.
Great post! It seems very difficult to mention "gun control" and engage in an actual conversation about the specifics that you've mentioned above. Gun control needs to be addressed; that doesn't mean that the 2nd amendment needs to be repealed. There is a lot of space between those two ideas, but very few seem capable of discussing what lies within those poles.
Dedhed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:36 PM   #546
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseyguy4 View Post
Back to the issue, I had asked you if you really believed that you would be safer from burglary in a town that demanded residents own guns versus a town that demanded residents couldn't own guns. You didn't answer, and I don't blame you. It's fairly rhetorical. Of course those without guns are less safe from burglary. We don't need studies to explain simple things and common logic.
Sigh. I love it when people bring up the Kennesaw argument. It's been done before.

I lived in Kennesaw for three years. Neighboring Acworth (the towns are nearly indistinguishable geographically and demographically) has a lower crime rate and a lower rate of burglaries than Kennesaw. I have an extensive relationship with both the Acworth PD and the Kennesaw PD, as they worked security for me every Friday and Saturday night. The topic of gun laws came up several times, and the consensus of the law enforcement in that area is that there is no discernible effect on crime by having a gun in the home, just as the research I posted from a guy who holds a PhD and is the Director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center suggests.

It's not just some guy who wrote a book, and it's not just a link on the internetz. These are real scholars in academia who write for real publications, such as the Journal of Community Health, The American Sociological Review, the American Journal of Psychiatry...if you don't understand the process of research, peer review, and publication, well...that's on you. If you can't (or won't) wrap your mind around that, then there's simply no sense in arguing with you about it, because you're simply not being honest.

So no...demanding people own guns doesn't make it a safer place to live.

Now are you going to make me post a picture to prove I lived in Kennesaw...again?
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:39 PM   #547
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedhed View Post
How so?
Let's backtrack. I said the scale of these 'mass' shootings matters, at least in regards to our ability to do anything about them. You said

"Are you willing to apply that same argument to idea of automatic and semi-automatic weapons?"

And I said that's already part of the equation. Meaning we already do apply that argument to automatic and semi-automatic weapons. Semis are generally legal and widely-owned. Fully-autos are heavily restricted and not at all widely owned (by the general public)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:47 PM   #548
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
No. You've declared the car an "alcohol-free zone" to little effect. Sound familiar?


What exactly are you referring to with regard to "little effect"? The rate of drunk driver fatalities has dropped nearly 50% in the last 20 years.

http://www.centurycouncil.org/drunk-...ing-statistics
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:55 PM   #549
ColoradoDarin
Not Too Shabby Poster
 
ColoradoDarin's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Unsettled, NC
Posts: 7,523

Adopt-a-Bronco:
T J Ward
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
Sigh. I love it when people bring up the Kennesaw argument. It's been done before.

I lived in Kennesaw for three years. Neighboring Acworth (the towns are nearly indistinguishable geographically and demographically) has a lower crime rate and a lower rate of burglaries than Kennesaw. I have an extensive relationship with both the Acworth PD and the Kennesaw PD, as they worked security for me every Friday and Saturday night. The topic of gun laws came up several times, and the consensus of the law enforcement in that area is that there is no discernible effect on crime by having a gun in the home, just as the research I posted from a guy who holds a PhD and is the Director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center suggests.

It's not just some guy who wrote a book, and it's not just a link on the internetz. These are real scholars in academia who write for real publications, such as the Journal of Community Health, The American Sociological Review, the American Journal of Psychiatry...if you don't understand the process of research, peer review, and publication, well...that's on you. If you can't (or won't) wrap your mind around that, then there's simply no sense in arguing with you about it, because you're simply not being honest.

So no...demanding people own guns doesn't make it a safer place to live.

Now are you going to make me post a picture to prove I lived in Kennesaw...again?
Acworth:
There were 5,453 housing units at an average density of 770.7 per square mile (297.4/km²). The racial makeup of the city was 79.7% White, 12.6% African American, 0.2% Native American, 2.3% Asian, 0.02% Pacific Islander, 3.2% from other races, and 2.00% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 6.05% of the population.

Kennesaw:
The racial makeup of the city was 64.2% White, 22.3% Black, 0.4% Native American, 5.3% Asian, 0.02% Pacific Islander, 4.7% from other races, and 3.0% two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 10.8% of the population.

I would argue that 15% fewer whites and 10% more blacks is not the same demographically.
ColoradoDarin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:55 PM   #550
jerseyguy4
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
Sigh. I love it when people bring up the Kennesaw argument. It's been done before.

I lived in Kennesaw for three years. Neighboring Acworth (the towns are nearly indistinguishable geographically and demographically) has a lower crime rate and a lower rate of burglaries than Kennesaw. I have an extensive relationship with both the Acworth PD and the Kennesaw PD, as they worked security for me every Friday and Saturday night. The topic of gun laws came up several times, and the consensus of the law enforcement in that area is that there is no discernible effect on crime by having a gun in the home, just as the research I posted from a guy who holds a PhD and is the Director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center suggests.

It's not just some guy who wrote a book, and it's not just a link on the internetz. These are real scholars in academia who write for real publications, such as the Journal of Community Health, The American Sociological Review, the American Journal of Psychiatry...if you don't understand the process of research, peer review, and publication, well...that's on you. If you can't (or won't) wrap your mind around that, then there's simply no sense in arguing with you about it, because you're simply not being honest.

So no...demanding people own guns doesn't make it a safer place to live.

Now are you going to make me post a picture to prove I lived in Kennesaw...again?
The Kennesaw law was put in place to prove a point, not to force people to own guns. It is/was uninforced. I read the stats that showed no drastic decrease in crime. But the fact was that there wasn't much crime to begin with.

I'm not looking to make people own guns, and putting laws like this in place is not going to solve the problem. My point was that your "paper" was misleading and agenda-driven.

Again with my endless analogies...if YOU were a burglar: You had a choice of 2 houses to rob, and you were going to rob 1 of them. House #1 you know has guns, and house #2 you know does not. Which do you rob?
Rhetorical.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:39 PM.


Denver Broncos