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Old 12-18-2012, 10:24 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by ColoradoDarin View Post
All of the studies show this to be the case.
Were the days of the Great Frontier included in those studies? Isn't that what the more guns advocates are arguing for?

Everyone had a gun, and we know that no one died from guns in those days.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:28 AM   #477
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Were the days of the Great Frontier included in those studies? Isn't that what the more guns advocates are arguing for?

Everyone had a gun, and we know that no one died from guns in those days.
http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less.../dp/0226493660
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:29 AM   #478
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Wow- You found one whole book that argues that point. Great work!

http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/A...ue_article.pdf

That was easy!
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:42 AM   #479
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Were the days of the Great Frontier included in those studies? Isn't that what the more guns advocates are arguing for?

Everyone had a gun, and we know that no one died from guns in those days.
I think that era was slightly more marked by the absence of law than the presence of guns.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:13 AM   #480
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I think that era was slightly more marked by the absence of law than the presence of guns.
Thank God too because look how boring all those Western TV shows and movies would be if it was all nice and ****.

In reality, I doubt the West was quite like how they show us in Hollywood. I read somewhere that many on the Plains or West were black cowboys(Maybe 25%) but you never see that in the movies or shows.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:14 AM   #481
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I think that era was slightly more marked by the absence of law than the presence of guns.
I would say it's marked more by taking the law into your own hands than anything.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:18 AM   #482
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FWIW houghtam....I'll say that almost all of the people who own guns for protection pray that they never have to use them.....just because we're not afraid to defend ourselves or other innocent people doesn't mean we have fantasies of killing intruders or stopping school shootings
Most crime is stopped by simply pointing a firearm at a criminal. For the non nut jobs, they don't want to die and most don't want to kill someone. If I am in that situation, my first thought is protecting my family. That criminal better freeze because I am not positive he has a weapon on him and if so, won't use it.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:58 AM   #483
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http://www.bookwormroom.com/2012/12/...-common-sense/
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:59 AM   #484
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http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...thomas-sowell#
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:07 PM   #485
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Wow- You found one whole book that argues that point. Great work!

http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/A...ue_article.pdf

That was easy!
Sure is...

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While reading Ayres and Donohue’s 2003 article in the Stanford Law Review, we noticed that their analysis did not prove what they said it proved.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:43 PM   #486
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I would say it's marked more by taking the law into your own hands than anything.
Well the next time my life, the life of my family, or my property is threatened I will call the cops and politely look at the perpetrator and say, "You're in big trouble mister! I called the police and they'll be here in 20 minutes or so." I'm sure all will be well and good.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:11 PM   #487
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One teacher was a law abiding citizen who was armed; the killer's mother. Making the argument that more guns would help is just beyond a joke.
Yeah, well she never expected her allegedly autistic son to snap, steal her guns as she slept and shoot her in the head....and any reasonable person knows I was talking about at the school when the douchebag started this shooting spree

what you'll never admit is that the only thing that stops a bad person with a gun, is a good person with a gun.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:23 PM   #488
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EXCLUSIVE: Fear of being committed may have caused Connecticut gunman to snap


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18...#ixzz2FRd4iaZP
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:09 PM   #489
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Walmart and Dick's suspend the sale of semi-auto rifles. PR stunt.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/justic...ut-*****-guns/
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:26 PM   #490
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Yeah, well she never expected her allegedly autistic son to snap, steal her guns as she slept and shoot her in the head....and any reasonable person knows I was talking about at the school when the douchebag started this shooting spree
MMkay...you're one of those Tom Cruise "mental illness doesn't exist" folks I take it.

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what you'll never admit is that the only thing that stops a bad person with a gun, is a good person with a gun.
I freely admit that, but I'd much rather said bad person never got a gun in the first place.

This is still a tragedy if someone shoots the guy when he's only killed 7 kids. You'll never engage in an honest discussion on the topic.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:30 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by JLesSPE View Post
Well the next time my life, the life of my family, or my property is threatened I will call the cops and politely look at the perpetrator and say, "You're in big trouble mister! I called the police and they'll be here in 20 minutes or so." I'm sure all will be well and good.
I'm not trying at all to argue against your right to do that. Like most other pro-gunners you've assumed that anyone who wants gun control is trying to repeal the second amendment and therefore dismiss any discussion with grandiose quotes from Moses.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:52 PM   #492
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One teacher was a law abiding citizen who was armed; the killer's mother. Making the argument that more guns would help is just beyond a joke.
Turns out the whole Mom was a Teacher thing was bull****. If this episode has proven anything, its that our media is starting to borderline on criminally negligent.

http://news.yahoo.com/nancy-lanza-re...163928460.html
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:55 PM   #493
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Turns out the whole Mom was a Teacher thing was bull****. If this episode has proven anything, its that our media is starting to borderline on criminally negligent.

http://news.yahoo.com/nancy-lanza-re...163928460.html
The media crossed that line a long time ago.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:02 PM   #494
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This is still a tragedy if someone shoots the guy when he's only killed 7 kids. You'll never engage in an honest discussion on the topic.
The scale of the thing matters. Unless the argument is we should turn the world into a padded cell where nobody can hurt anyone.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:10 PM   #495
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The scale of the thing matters.
Are you willing to apply that same argument to idea of automatic and semi-automatic weapons?
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:39 PM   #496
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EXCLUSIVE: Fear of being committed may have caused Connecticut gunman to snap


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18...#ixzz2FRd4iaZP
Well like I said on page 9 or so days ago. The mental heath system is jacked up. There is just no easy way to commit someone until they really are dangerous. By then it's often too late. See Connecticut. The mental healthcare system has much more of the blame than the AR-15 itself.

Mom has probably been begging for help for years.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:48 PM   #497
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Well like I said on page 9 or so days ago. The mental heath system is jacked up. There is just no easy way to commit someone. The mental healthcare system has much more of the blame than the AR-15 itself.

Mom has probably been begging for help for years.
I agree with this. The mental healthcare system in this country has always had problems and its an incredibly tough challenge for society to face moving forward. Mental illness is so hard to judge sometimes, even for the professionals... then its sometimes hard to weigh an individuals abilities and freedom to whats actually best for the individual and others.

Gun control is a topic thats not going away... and it may be a band aid fix... but would there be any common ground in looking at mental health evaluations for gun purchasers as part of the control or is that too invasive? I'm sure people would still slip through the cracks and criminals who might already be mentally unstable will still commit crimes and steal guns. However, we have to start somewhere. I actually think this is too invasive... but it would also be something I'd be willing to accept. I'll likely ever own the one shotgun I currently have.

What about a requirement on automatic weapons that you must pass a training course (with or without a mental health eval) and then a trigger lock that requires a finger print ID pad to unlock the weapon? Without a mental health eval its not as invasive and it doesn't hinder people's right...

Just thoughts.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:54 PM   #498
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I agree with this. The mental healthcare system in this country has always had problems and its an incredibly tough challenge for society to face moving forward. Mental illness is so hard to judge sometimes, even for the professionals... then its sometimes hard to weigh an individuals abilities and freedom to whats actually best for the individual and others.

Gun control is a topic thats not going away... and it may be a band aid fix... but would there be any common ground in looking at mental health evaluations for gun purchasers as part of the control or is that too invasive? I'm sure people would still slip through the cracks and criminals who might already be mentally unstable will still commit crimes and steal guns. However, we have to start somewhere. I actually think this is too invasive... but it would also be something I'd be willing to accept. I'll likely ever own the one shotgun I currently have.

What about a requirement on automatic weapons that you must pass a training course (with or without a mental health eval) and then a trigger lock that requires a finger print ID pad to unlock the weapon? Without a mental health eval its not as invasive and it doesn't hinder people's right...

Just thoughts.
Well, we could go all "originalist" like Scalia et al. Since the founders wrote the second amendment when the only available "arms" were rifled muskets, just outlaw everything else but that.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:12 PM   #499
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Well, we could go all "originalist" like Scalia et al. Since the founders wrote the second amendment when the only available "arms" were rifled muskets, just outlaw everything else but that.
Not even rifled. Good luck hitting anything at more than 25 feet!

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Old 12-18-2012, 05:52 PM   #500
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Here is the thing I have been thinking about regarding this incident and the gun debate.

During the Conn shooting the kid shoots his mom (with HER Gun) then shoots his way into the school kicking away the glass and crawling through the window. He shoots the 2 who approach him and try to stop him. Then shoots kids and teachers until he hears sirens then shoots himself.

In this instance someone having a hand gun in the glove box of their car is not going to have time to run out there get it and get back, chances are he would have likely been killed fleeing to his car or unable to get back into a building in lock down.

Trying to control guns is not the only answer, nut jobs will find other ways to carry out their plans as has been pointed out here.

The teachers having guns on site means they need to be trained how to use them and have the courage to kill someone else trained to use guns who is crazy and hell bent on death and mayhem, I don't see this working either. Plus if a citizen was packing and did return fire that only complicates the situation when the authorities do arrive. Who is the bad guy? What if a 3rd citizen shows up and returns fire, who does he choose to fire on? Now bullets are firing and no one knows who the bad guy is and even more people could get hurt. I don't think having more guns in this type of situation is the answer.

So I spent all weekend thinking about all these senarios and what would make me feel safer as a parent who is dropping his kids off at school, and I got my answer. Monday morning my daughter had seen the news and we talked about what happened and what she would do if the same thing should happen at her school, she was scared, she hugged me at least 3 times and gave me kisses and you could tell it was hard for her to muster the courage to go to school.

The thing is when we got to her school the principal was out there standing next to a policeman, and suddenly I didn't feel as concerned and I asked my daughter when I picked her up if she felt better have the officer there which she did.

I don't think having a dude(or more) sitting in the hall of every grade and middle school for the whole school day is the solution but having more police on the street, checking in at all public areas (schools, malls, churches, etc...) is a better option than arming the public.

I don't want to pack heat, it would hurt me physically to fire a round due to my disablity, I don't want to go through the training or target practice. I hate guns. I am tired of hearing about kids finding a gun in their house or their friends house and getting hurt or killed. I am tired about hearing of the shooting epidemic in the drug riddled areas of cities like Chicago. I am tired of hearing about multiple armed robberies in my town, which is far from the drug riddled areas of Chicago. I would rather have someone who has been trained and sworn to protect citizens, who knows what to do in shooting or hostage events, do what they were trained and prepared to do.

We will never have a way to stop crime or mass shootings, people have been going nuts and killing masses of other innocent people ever since men have walked the Earth. I think adding to our police and training them to act in events like this give us a better chance to live in a safe and free society. We haven't had armed robberies in our town in the 14 years I lived here and over the summer we had 3, the response was a larger police presence in the locations of the robberies.

The suburb I live in has 30,000 people, it is staffed with only 55 sworn officers, most of them have management roles or are in special roles like drug enforcement, etc... THere are 2 Traffic cops, 2 beat cops, and 29 other officers protecting us 24/7/365. There is one sworn officer to about every 550 citizens, it takes 15 minutes to drive from one end of my village to the other, maybe 6 if your in high persuit and don't get stuck by a train.

I am not sure how long the response time was from the 1st 911 call in Conn to the time the killer shot himself but the killer had enough time to shoot his way into the school, be confronted then kill the principal, then make his way into multiple class rooms killing 20 people along the way before turning the gun on himself. I read in this very thread that most of the people who pull killings like this usually turn the gun on and kill themselves once they hear sirens of approaching police. I really think having more police patroling and interacting with the community would reduce the carnage and possibly stop other events like this.

The shooter had a plan, he knew he would encounter no resistance for at least 3-5 minutes if not more. If you reduce the window nutjobs have to pull off their plan and make them account for the possiblity that the school might have an armed officer checking in at the time or being less than 90 seconds away I bet at the least the body count would be lower. Plus there is the ancillary benefit of other types of crime or confrontations being reduced.

Every year we hear about a police force being reduced or in financial trouble. I would pay more tax to increase our police presences so I can feel safe going to a movie or dropping off my kids at school or even driving late at night and not worrying about drunk drivers.

No one who has guns are going to give them up, if you want to pretend it is still 1776 and you want to hunt and eat what you kill or you think that the movie Red Dawn will come true or the Zombie Apocalypse will happen and you feel safer having a gun then fine. Keep it locked up and away from where kids, criminals, or mentally ill can find it. Make it harder to get a gun, document who comes into the store and inquires about buying a gun and report anyone who leaves because they can't get a gun before the waiting period. If it is true that the shooter walked into a gun store, wanted to buy a gun then left because he had to wait for it then shame on us.

In the meantime put more trained professionals on beats that take them into schools, malls, libraries, business parks, anywhere there are large amounts of people going about their lives. Let criminals and killers see our sworn protection out in places they haven't seen them before and maybe they will think twice about wrecking havoc on innocents.

I volunteer every week at my daughters school in the computer lab, making it harder for me to get in and help is not solving anything when there are nut jobs willing to shoot their way into a building. Increase the police presence and allow them to interact positively with the public and maybe our kids and their kids will have a chance to live their lives and learn in an environment that id less fortress and more fun, caring and nurturing.
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