Shooting at Conn Elementary 27 dead including kids

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by errand

No, mass murder is not acceptable, but it does happen, and the US Constitution gives me the right to arm myself to ensure it doesn't happen to me or my kids, or anyone else...

So you are saying it is acceptable. "Acceptable" doesn't mean you like or encourage it, it means that you acknowledge that you realize there are consequences, but in the end it doesn't matter as long as you get to keep your guns. This is evidenced by the fact that if someone even tries to introduce gun control legislation (not simply banning guns), the gun-worshippers will be the first to preach the good word of the Second Amendment.

Richard Speck killed about a dozen nursing students with a knife and his bare hands, so will you admit you want to continue to have a butcher knife and those nurses are collateral damage? don't be stupid man....

And as I said, in many cases it takes a completely different psychological make-up to kill someone with a knife vs. a bomb vs. a gun. This is over and above the common sense that knives don't quite have the range that guns do, and the fact that the sword that is your argument has two edges...just think of the damage Speck could have done if had used a gun instead.

You keep trying to paint people into your template...

once again, if there was one or more law abiding citizens who were armed, those mass shootings are probably prevented or at the least, the death toll greatly reduced...because that ****ing clown that shot those kids might have gotten the principal...he'd have been the next person shot and killed

Except this isn't Rambo, or Toy Soldiers, or whatever other NRA fantasy circle jerk film you people worship, this is real life. I would be a little more comfortable with concealed and open carry if the people carrying had to go through the same rigorous tests the military does, but they don't. The potential to make an awful situation much worse is just as likely as stopping it entirely. They put a school on lockdown today because some kids were playing with a long umbrella that someone thought was a gun. What do you think would have happened if the teacher who called in the incident was toting a gun?

Bold.

[errand]

Is innocent life valuable?

If No, then why ban guns?

If Yes, then is innocent life worth protecting?

If No, then why ban guns?

If Yes, should we be allowed to effectively defend or protect our life?

If Yes, then why ban guns?

If No, then in what meaningful sense is your life valuable?

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by errand

Is innocent life valuable?

If No, then why ban guns?

If Yes, then is innocent life worth protecting?

If No, then why ban guns?

If Yes, should we be allowed to effectively defend or protect our life?

If Yes, then why ban guns?

If No, then in what meaningful sense is your life valuable?

Who is advocating banning Guns? (Big G)

[errand]

Houghtam stated - So you are saying it is acceptable. "Acceptable" doesn't mean you like or encourage it, it means that you acknowledge that you realize there are consequences, but in the end it doesn't matter as long as you get to keep your guns. This is evidenced by the fact that if someone even tries to introduce gun control legislation (not simply banning guns), the gun-worshippers will be the first to preach the good word of the Second Amendment.

Uh, no...it is not acceptable...saying it is acceptable means I think it's OK. If banning guns would prevent murders and mass killings, I'd be all for it. You just need to convince the rapists and thieves and killers and other criminals to turn their guns in first...good luck with that.

I carry a gun, and if I was at Sandy Hook School and saw this creep pull out his gun to shoot innocent people he'd have been dead before he knew what the **** had happened....and guess what "Mr. I have an agenda", there are gun control laws. It's not like you can just walk into a gun store and purchase a gun.....I cannot buy an automatic weapon....I cannot by a sub-machine gun or MG42.

I can however upon passing a background check and registering my weapon in accordance with the gun control laws in the state I reside in legally own a semi-automatic rifle or hand gun

And as I said, in many cases it takes a completely different psychological make-up to kill someone with a knife vs. a bomb vs. a gun. This is over and above the common sense that knives don't quite have the range that guns do, and the fact that the sword that is your argument has two edges...just think of the damage Speck could have done if had used a gun instead.

I'll argue that it takes a whack job to murder someone regardless of the weapon of choice....you for some stupid reason think that nobody ever murdered anyone until the gun was invented....and Speck couldn't have done anymore damage had he had a gun...he still would have killed the nurses. As it ends up he was able to do so quite well without a gun....but pray tell how many would he have been able to kill if one or more of those nurses were carrying a gun themselves? I bet the number is far less than the 12 he did in fact murder

Except this isn't Rambo, or Toy Soldiers, or whatever other NRA fantasy circle jerk film you people worship, this is real life. I would be a little more comfortable with concealed and open carry if the people carrying had to go through the same rigorous tests the military does, but they don't.

Au contraire mother****er! While I can't speak for every state, I can say that those who carry concealed in many of them have to go thru a class and are instructed in the responsible use of hand guns and gun law. And I'm a former Marine, and many many other gun owners are current and former military men and women. Again you are talking about everyone...I'm talking about sane, responsible law abiding citizens who don't act like it's the old wild west, but will defend even your ignorant life should some psycho have a gun or knife coming towards you

The potential to make an awful situation much worse is just as likely as stopping it entirely. They put a school on lockdown today because some kids were playing with a long umbrella that someone thought was a gun. What do you think would have happened if the teacher who called in the incident was toting a gun?

Did you ever hear of the Pearl River, MS school shooting? Sixteen year old Luke Woodham murdered his mother, then went to his high school wearing an orange jumpsuit and trench coat, and shot and killed two people and wounded several others before getting into his mother's car to head towards Pearl river middle school and conduct yet another shooting rampage.....

did the fact that the school was a gun free zone stop him? Nope....

did a law abiding armed citizen (asst. principal Joel Myrick) stop him from committing more murders? Yes....

Once again, a responsible law abiding citizen who was armed prevented middle schoolers from being murdered and reduced the carnage this psycho clown tried to do.

[errand]

Originally Posted by houghtam

Who is advocating banning Guns? (Big G)

Really? Lie to your friends and family, but please stop lying to me.....

[errand]

FWIW houghtam....I'll say that almost all of the people who own guns for protection pray that they never have to use them.....just because we're not afraid to defend ourselves or other innocent people doesn't mean we have fantasies of killing intruders or stopping school shootings

[Meck77]

Just in Colorado they are processing over 4,000 gun purchases PER DAY.
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...-break-records

Anyone who thinks that any greater gun control is going to make a damn bit of difference in a sea of hundreds of millions of guns is fooling themselves.

Anyone remember the Pearl High School shooting? Didn't think so. The reason is the principal ended the situation even before the police arrived with his own pistol from his car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

[Fedaykin]

Originally Posted by errand

FWIW houghtam....I'll say that almost all of the people who own guns for protection pray that they never have to use them.....just because we're not afraid to defend ourselves or other innocent people doesn't mean we have fantasies of killing intruders or stopping school shootings

As an firearm owner myself (ironically, I probably own and have more involvement -- reloading, restoring, collecting, etc. -- in firearms than some or even most of the NRA 2nd amendment homers on the board) I can say that I've met both types in significant numbers:

* People like you, myself and others that would avoid taking a life, even of an attacker, unless absolutely necessary.
* People that DO lust after the idea of taking out "the bad guys" and being "a hero".

The idea that the second category doesn't exist in significant numbers is just not true.

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

Originally Posted by Meck77

Just in Colorado they are processing over 4,000 gun purchases PER DAY.
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...-break-records

Anyone who thinks that any greater gun control is going to make a damn bit of difference in a sea of hundreds of millions of guns is fooling themselves.

Anyone remember the Pearl High School shooting? Didn't think so. The reason is the principal ended the situation even before the police arrived with his own pistol from his car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

Cool. It's all over then. Don't bother going out in public; everyone's got guns and there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT.

America.

[Meck77]

Originally Posted by TheElusiveKyleOrton

Cool. It's all over then. Don't bother going out in public; everyone's got guns and there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT.

America.

That's more dramatic than my 4 year old niece!

If you want a shining example of how well the toughest gun control laws work visit Chicago.

We are spending billions on wars in the middle east and beyond yet most American schools can't even afford a $35,000 a year security guard with a taser. Our children are sitting ducks in gun free zones. The nut jobs know this.

[Dedhed]

Originally Posted by errand

What is odd is that very few are willing to admit that this tragedy could have been prevented at best or been less severe had one or more of those teachers been a law abiding citizen that was armed.

One teacher was a law abiding citizen who was armed; the killer's mother. Making the argument that more guns would help is just beyond a joke.

[Meck77]

Originally Posted by Dedhed

One teacher was a law abiding citizen who was armed; the killer's mother. Making the argument that more guns would help is just beyond a joke.

Mother was home. You know that. Had there been someone trained in the school that could have come at this guy with something other than a book I'm sure the outcome would have been different.


Saw an interview from a guy who has investigated something like 37 mass shooting attempts. Conclusion. Most attackers shoot themselves when they know someone with a gun is near.

See mall shooting in Oregon recently. A young guy with a concealed weapon just pointed it at the shooter and the piece of **** shot himself. The shooter would have shot plenty of more people until the police arrived.

[c_lazy_r]

Originally Posted by errand

again...cars don't have accidents...people have accidents. Cars don't drink alcohol...people drink alcohol. Guns don't accidently shoot people...people accidently shoot people. Guns don't kill people....people kill people.

Sane responsible people owning guns is not the problem...just as sober responsible people are not the problem with DUI deaths. Psychos obtaining guns is the problem...but keep in mind this clown stole the guns he used. He didn't buy them at a gun show, or gun/pawn shop.

another problem is this psycho had no criminal record...and we cannot just put whack job people like him in the looney bin because he acted weird prior to his killing spree.

As a gun owner, I am responsible...I know that every round that is fired by me, I am going to be held accountable for...and God forbid the day comes that I have to shoot someone and they die as a result...I understand that I will probably be charged with murder until the evidence proves otherwise....the problem is that these nut jobs don't care about laws, or accountability.

Safe sober drivers shouldn't be punished because some idiot drives drunk, nor should safe responsible gun owners be punished because some psycho decides to steal a few guns and go on a killing spree.

That is a great post.

[Dedhed]

Originally Posted by Fedaykin

As an firearm owner myself (ironically, I probably own and have more involvement -- reloading, restoring, collecting, etc. -- in firearms than some or even most of the NRA 2nd amendment homers on the board) I can say that I've met both types in significant numbers:

* People like you, myself and others that would avoid taking a life, even of an attacker, unless absolutely necessary.
* People that DO lust after the idea of taking out "the bad guys" and being "a hero".

The idea that the second category doesn't exist in significant numbers is just not true.

This is a great post. A huge part of the problem is that there are so many people who are completely unwilling to have an honest conversation about the issue. Errand is the perfect example. Not admitting that there are gun owners, in significant numbers, who do have "hero" dreams, is refusing to engage in a real discussion on the issue.

I applaud you for injecting some honesty into the debate.

[Dedhed]

Originally Posted by Meck77

Mother was home, Dead.

You forgot a detail.

[misturanderson]

Originally Posted by Meck77

Mother was home. You know that. Had there been someone trained in the school that could have come at this guy with something other than a book I'm sure the outcome would have been different.


Saw an interview from a guy who has investigated something like 37 mass shooting attempts. Conclusion. Most attackers shoot themselves when they know someone with a gun is near.

See mall shooting in Oregon recently. A young guy with a concealed weapon just pointed it at the shooter and the piece of **** shot himself. The shooter would have shot plenty of more people until the police arrived.

Maybe you shouldn't get your news from Facebook. I hear that literally NOTHING posted by right wing nut job Facebook groups is even remotely factually accurate. Ever.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/12...est=latestnews

[Fedaykin]

Originally Posted by Meck77

Mother was home. You know that. Had there been someone trained in the school that could have come at this guy with something other than a book I'm sure the outcome would have been different.


Saw an interview from a guy who has investigated something like 37 mass shooting attempts. Conclusion. Most attackers shoot themselves when they know someone with a gun is near.

See mall shooting in Oregon recently. A young guy with a concealed weapon just pointed it at the shooter and the piece of **** shot himself. The shooter would have shot plenty of more people until the police arrived.

More weapons in more people's hands may prevent mass suicide killings (I think it's a reasonable argument to make), but do you think it will reduce the overall number of firearm related deaths? Accidents, crimes of passion, hero types shooting kids for stealing purses, etc.?

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Fedaykin

More weapons in more people's hands may prevent mass suicide killings (I think it's a reasonable argument to make), but do you think it will reduce the overall number of firearm related deaths? Accidents, crimes of passion, hero types shooting kids for stealing purses, etc.?

And it's only a matter of time before a couple of "hero types" are shooting it out between themselves in public.

[ColoradoDarin]

Originally Posted by Fedaykin

More weapons in more people's hands may prevent mass suicide killings (I think it's a reasonable argument to make), but do you think it will reduce the overall number of firearm related deaths? Accidents, crimes of passion, hero types shooting kids for stealing purses, etc.?

All of the studies show this to be the case.

[Fedaykin]

Originally Posted by ColoradoDarin

All of the studies show this to be the case.

links?

[ColoradoDarin]

Originally Posted by Fedaykin

links?

https://www.google.com/

[Fedaykin]

Originally Posted by ColoradoDarin

https://www.google.com/

yeahhh, not going to do your research for you.

[ColoradoDarin]

Originally Posted by Fedaykin

yeahhh, not going to do your research for you.

No, you just have to do a simple search. Seriously.

So let me google that for you...


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=number+of+guns+lower+gun+crimes

[Fedaykin]

Originally Posted by ColoradoDarin

No, you just have to do a simple search. Seriously.

So let me google that for you...


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=number+of+guns+lower+gun+crimes

That's cute, but ironically the top results don't support your claim. Most of them say that gun ownership doesn't even correlate with crime rates.

But, obviously you aren't interested in real conversation, so bye.

[ColoradoDarin]

Well, Bye

http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less.../dp/0226493660