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Old 12-15-2012, 10:24 PM   #101
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I was under the impression the final year of Ayers' contract had voided. Not sure exactly where I got that from, but that's what I believe to be the case. If that is wrong, then we can put off drafting Dumervil's backup for another year.

If we assume Wolfe moves inside, than we need to find a DE that can play effectively as a 5 tech. I'm not sure Jason Hunter fits that role, Robert Ayers is pretty stout against the run as well, and he wasn't even considered. Maybe it can just be Malik Jackson.

We've been really successful this year though. Del Rio may re-think his previous plans concerning Wolfe and just leave him outside moving forward. Which would bring us back to drafting a penetrating DT.

We could easily go either direction.
Or they use Wolfe as the wild card playing him all over making OC's crazy with protection schemes. The more schemes they have to practice the less they can get proficient at it.

Just a thought.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:26 PM   #102
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Still would be interested in figuring out where the money is coming from to sign all these UFA and who is really n the team.

IIRC lots of guys this year were signed to one year contracts. Gonna have to replace them also or resign them and if we do they will be more expensive than last year.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:51 AM   #103
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Still would be interested in figuring out where the money is coming from to sign all these UFA and who is really n the team.

IIRC lots of guys this year were signed to one year contracts. Gonna have to replace them also or resign them and if we do they will be more expensive than last year.


Free Agents after this year:

1. DT Justin Bannan (1M cap hit in 2012)
2. MLB Keith Brooking (1M cap hit in 2012)
3. SS David Bruton (735k cap hit in 2012)
4. LT Ryan Clady (5.8M cap hit in 2012)
5. OG C.J. Davis (615K cap hit in 2012)
6. OC Dan Koppen (825k cap hit in 2012)
7. FS Jim Leonhard (890k cap hit in 2012)
8. CB Tracy Porter (4M cap hit in 2012)
9. SWR Brandon Stokley (1M cap hit in 2012)
10. DT Kevin Vickerson (1.7M cap hit in 2012)
11. WR Matt Willis (1.2M cap hit in 2012)
12. DT Ty Warren (1.5M cap hit in 2012)
13. DE Jason Hunter (700K cap hit in 2012)

Restricted Free Agents:
1. RB Lance Ball
2. OT Chris Clark
3. CB Tony Carter
4. P Britton Colquitt
5. DT Sealver Siliga
6. DT Mitch Unrein
7. DE Jeremy Beal
8. FB Chris Gronkowski

Either a Free Agent or One Year Left:
1. DE Robert Ayers 2.2M cap hit



You are correct, there will need to be a lot of offseason reshuffling of our deck. The good news is that Tracy Porter's 4M, Ty Warren's 1.5M, Vickerson's 1.7M, Willis' 1.2M, and Brooking's 1M will be available to spread around. So, that's 8.9M right there. Possibly 11.1M if Ayers is a FA. Clady's long term deal could easily give cap relief next year if needed. And the only RFA's we will need to increase their pay to is Tony Carter, Britton Colquitt, and possibly Mitch Unrein and Chris Clark. The draft should bring in at least 3-4 solid players at a cheap cost as well.

It is worth noting that while unlikely, every single DT on our roster could be signed to another team this offseason. Bannan, Vickerson, Unrein, Siliga, and Warren. I think Unrein and Siliga will be back, and Wolfe almost certainly moves inside. Ben Garland is on the Practice Squad. And Malik Jackson can play inside as well. Good chance we do take a DT this draft though unless we bring back Bannan or Vickerson. We'll carry 5 active DTs, including Wolfe and Jackson. If Unrein and Siliga come back, that leaves room for one more active DT (Bannan, Vickerson, Garland, Rookie, Other Free Agent).
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:33 PM   #104
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Fully expect him to be cut. He's the type of penetrating force that would be useful for us either as a 5 tech or DT.
I think he would be a solid addition.. It depends on the money..
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:37 PM   #105
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Still would be interested in figuring out where the money is coming from to sign all these UFA and who is really n the team.

IIRC lots of guys this year were signed to one year contracts. Gonna have to replace them also or resign them and if we do they will be more expensive than last year.
I intend to do this.. I am using an iPhone, but when I have some time I will work one out, it is time consuming..
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:47 PM   #106
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I was under the impression the final year of Ayers' contract had voided. Not sure exactly where I got that from, but that's what I believe to be the case. If that is wrong, then we can put off drafting Dumervil's backup for another year.

Ayers is under contract next season.. Did you see how he played today!??

If we assume Wolfe moves inside, than we need to find a DE that can play effectively as a 5 tech. I'm not sure Jason Hunter fits that role, Robert Ayers is pretty stout against the run as well, and he wasn't even considered. Maybe it can just be Malik Jackson.

Hunter would have been the starting SDE.. He is in the 270s, sure hes not close to 300, but if he's stout against against the run and can push the pocket I don't care what his weight is. Jackson and Ayers can play SDE, I would be fine with Hunter backing up Doom or Ayers.. Again, have you been watching the way Ayers has played?!!

We've been really successful this year though. Del Rio may re-think his previous plans concerning Wolfe and just leave him outside moving forward. Which would bring us back to drafting a penetrating DT.

I would draft a DT either way, but I want to see more of Ayers at SDE and I would start kicking Wolfe inside permanately.

We could easily go either direction.
I don't want Wolfe at DE moving forward..
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:30 AM   #107
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I think that Wolfe has done a pretty darn good job this year, especially setting the edge and swarming the run game from the LDE position. I really think the way JDR is utilizing him plays to the strengths of the team and allows other players (like Von) to get some of the glory behind the LOS. We need to draft a penatrating DT this year big time, even if Wolfe is switched. Imagine a Kevin Williams (in his prime) like player at the position and what it would do for this defense.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:31 AM   #108
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Wolfes only move is the bullrush which is useless for him at de. His sack came wen he was at dt he pushed the pocket nicely which von forced his tackle inside deep forcing fluco to step to his right and wolfe pummeled him pretty nicely. Ive argued for ayers to start over wolfe and kick him inside benching bannan. Wolfe offers little to no rush from de but at dt i think he has some upside with his strength to push said el pocket
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:41 AM   #109
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I think that Wolfe has done a pretty darn good job this year, especially setting the edge and swarming the run game from the LDE position. I really think the way JDR is utilizing him plays to the strengths of the team and allows other players (like Von) to get some of the glory behind the LOS. We need to draft a penatrating DT this year big time, even if Wolfe is switched. Imagine a Kevin Williams (in his prime) like player at the position and what it would do for this defense.
I don't disagree that given the current personnel and scheme, Wolfe has done well at DE, most notably against the run and letting Von work behind him. But with how Ayers is playing in limited opportunities and his effectiveness against the run, and with Hunter having a phenomenal camp and projected as the starting SDE before being placed on IR, and Malik Jackson a very similar type player as those guys, I think Wolfe should play inside. Hunter and Ayers can play either side, with Jackson able to back up SDE and Doom can get rotated with Hunter or Ayers if it's a running down/situation.

And then focus on drafting a disruptive DT.. though I'd prefer it be a disruptive NT, because Wolfe can play UT, big Vick can back him up, we need some better, active, and younger NTs. I think if you add an Ayers or Hunter at DE, with Miller coming around and Doom on the other side, so much emphasis will be put on double teaming the edge. So Wolfe will have one on ones inside, but you add a big active NT inside, that just sets everything off.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:24 PM   #110
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I don't want Wolfe at DE moving forward..
Ayers flashed, but he only played 17/66 snaps. Five at RDE spelling Dumervil. Twelve at LDE in our 4-3 package where we actually use a strong-side power end.

Wolfe played mostly at 5 tech at LDE while moving inside at times, including NT in some 3-4 looks. He almost always two gaps. So, there's no way in hell that in our current base 3-3-5 defense that Jason Hunter or Robert Ayers are playing two gap 5 tech. They aren't big enough to control two gaps and hold up against double teams.

The more success this team has, especially defensively, the more likely it is that Del Rio changes his original plan and just decides to keep this exact scheme for next year due to how effective it has been. That leaves Robert Ayers as a backup and subpackage contributor and leaves Jason Hunter on the street.

At DT, we're continuing to do an equal 3 man rotation between Bannan, Vickerson, and Unrein, all seeing roughly 25 snaps, which is about a third of the defensive snaps. That usage suggests we don't overly value the DT position, so it may not be a high priority in the draft. This is consistent with how Fox has used his DTs in the past, journeymen on high rotation, part time roles.

I could see a draft where we take multiple DEs and move Wolfe inside. I could see a draft where we leave Wolfe as is and draft multiple DTs. And I can even see a draft where we don't draft a single D-linemen and just keep things as is by re-signing Bannan and Vick. We can really go in any direction.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:37 PM   #111
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Ayers flashed, but he only played 17/66 snaps. Five at RDE spelling Dumervil. Twelve at LDE in our 4-3 package where we actually use a strong-side power end.

Wolfe played mostly at 5 tech at LDE while moving inside at times, including NT in some 3-4 looks. He almost always two gaps. So, there's no way in hell that in our current base 3-3-5 defense that Jason Hunter or Robert Ayers are playing two gap 5 tech. They aren't big enough to control two gaps and hold up against double teams.

The more success this team has, especially defensively, the more likely it is that Del Rio changes his original plan and just decides to keep this exact scheme for next year due to how effective it has been. That leaves Robert Ayers as a backup and subpackage contributor and leaves Jason Hunter on the street.

At DT, we're continuing to do an equal 3 man rotation between Bannan, Vickerson, and Unrein, all seeing roughly 25 snaps, which is about a third of the defensive snaps. That usage suggests we don't overly value the DT position, so it may not be a high priority in the draft. This is consistent with how Fox has used his DTs in the past, journeymen on high rotation, part time roles.

I could see a draft where we take multiple DEs and move Wolfe inside. I could see a draft where we leave Wolfe as is and draft multiple DTs. And I can even see a draft where we don't draft a single D-linemen and just keep things as is by re-signing Bannan and Vick. We can really go in any direction.
Did you take a look at the post above you..? I went in pretty good detail there.. I'm not talking about Hunter or Ayers two gapping.. I'm talking about them rotating in a 4-3.. More specifically in a 5-2 front. Hunter would have been the starting SDE!
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:38 PM   #112
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Did you take a look at the post above you..? I went in pretty good detail there.. I'm not talking about Hunter or Ayers two gapping.. I'm talking about them rotating in a 4-3.. More specifically in a 5-2 front. Hunter would have been the starting SDE!
I hear what you are saying. I just think there is a 0% chance of Del Rio playing that type of scheme. If he had any inclination to do so, we would see it this year as Ayers rots away on the bench. It's a subpackage option used a handful of snaps per game at best.

I think the reality, and what fans should probably anticipate, is that we are going to maintain the status quo next year because it has been so effective this year. And to do so, we're going to essentially utilize 34 personnel. That means Wolfe either stays as our two gap 5 tech, or we move him inside and draft another one to replace him, which would seem redundant.

The odds suggest we will play the same hybrid scheme, Wolfe will stay at DE, which is essentially a DT in our (or any 34) scheme, and we will plug DT with cheap, part-time players, likely including Sealver Siliga and Mitch Unrein, along with re-signing Bannan or Vickerson.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:08 PM   #113
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I hear what you are saying. I just think there is a 0% chance of Del Rio playing that type of scheme. If he had any inclination to do so, we would see it this year as Ayers rots away on the bench. It's a subpackage option used a handful of snaps per game at best.

I think the reality, and what fans should probably anticipate, is that we are going to maintain the status quo next year because it has been so effective this year. And to do so, we're going to essentially utilize 34 personnel. That means Wolfe either stays as our two gap 5 tech, or we move him inside and draft another one to replace him, which would seem redundant.

The odds suggest we will play the same hybrid scheme, Wolfe will stay at DE, which is essentially a DT in our (or any 34) scheme, and we will plug DT with cheap, part-time players, likely including Sealver Siliga and Mitch Unrein, along with re-signing Bannan or Vickerson.
We are not playing a traditional 3-4.. We hybrid 3-4 fronts.. Which is what the 5-2 is.. But it's from the 4-3 just a shift and Miller at the LOS. But make no mistake it's 1 gapping, and that's what we do 90% of the time at a minimum.

The emphasis of Wolfe at DE is to keep from putting a safety in the box. It allows scheming the LBs and DBs. Wolfe can only bull rush.. You don't need to draft a DE, Hunter was going to play SDE.. Ayers and Jackson also can. If Ayers played SDE, he would generate more pressure than Wolfe, and still set the edge. So much attention would be on the edge that Wolfe and his bull rush would get home ALL the time! Throw in a disruptive NT and that's a dangerous front.

You draft a NT like Brandon Williams who is disruptive and has impressive size. You retain Big Vick and probably Silga and maybe throw in another Vet. You don't let Hunter walk when he can be resigned cheap. Jackson can back up Ayers..
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:31 PM   #114
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:50 PM   #115
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Chris Johnson. Make it happen.
That might be tricky.. I like the Cullen Jenkins suggestion, but CJ2K likes being over paid..
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:07 PM   #116
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That might be tricky.. I like the Cullen Jenkins suggestion, but CJ2K likes being over paid..
I think he is going to have a hard time getting much more then the 6 year 38 million contract Stewart got. Is anyone really tossing out big contract to RB's anymore?

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-...athan-stewart/

Maybe we can offer something like ^
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:14 PM   #117
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We are not playing a traditional 3-4.. We hybrid 3-4 fronts.. Which is what the 5-2 is.. But it's from the 4-3 just a shift and Miller at the LOS. But make no mistake it's 1 gapping, and that's what we do 90% of the time at a minimum.

The emphasis of Wolfe at DE is to keep from putting a safety in the box. It allows scheming the LBs and DBs. Wolfe can only bull rush.. You don't need to draft a DE, Hunter was going to play SDE.. Ayers and Jackson also can. If Ayers played SDE, he would generate more pressure than Wolfe, and still set the edge. So much attention would be on the edge that Wolfe and his bull rush would get home ALL the time! Throw in a disruptive NT and that's a dangerous front.

You draft a NT like Brandon Williams who is disruptive and has impressive size. You retain Big Vick and probably Silga and maybe throw in another Vet. You don't let Hunter walk when he can be resigned cheap. Jackson can back up Ayers..
As stated previously, we do run a hybrid front with the base being a 3-3-5. Like any defense, we have various packages. You're confusing formations with the base personnel. In our base package, which we run the vast majority of all our games, we have three DL (Dumervil, a DT, Wolfe), three LBs (Woodyard, a LB, Miller), and 5 DBs (Bailey, Harris, Moore, Adams, and Carter). At DT, Bannan, Vickerson, and Unrein rotate in evenly. At LB, Brooking, Williams, and Trevathan rotate in based on circumstance.

Derrick Wolfe is asked to two gap almost every play and he never leaves the field. He's typically lined up on the outside shoulder of the Left Tackle. He has to control the B and C gaps. When they move him inside, especially when he's lined up at 0 tech, he's two gapping. I'd say 90% of the time, he's two gapping, which requires either a bull rush or standing still and holding ground (read and react).

Wolfe at DE has nothing to do with the Safety. It has to do with allowing Miller to rush while maintaining control of all the gaps. Seattle runs the same defense with Chris Clemons/Bruce Irvin. They use Red Bryant in the same role. Oakland does something similar with Lamarr Houston freeing up SAM LB Phillip Wheeler. When you only employ one ILB and you consistently rush one of the OLBs, you have to play gap control with your linemen.

You're very enthusiastic about the type of defense you believe we should play. That's great. I don't agree nor disagree with you. I'm just pointing out how Jack Del Rio is using our current roster of players. And that, with our current level of success, he'll likely continue to use them in the same manner next year. Whatever scheme we were thinking of playing in training camp prior to injuries has no bearing on what we play going forward. This current scheme is one of the best in the NFL. And all of the key players will be here next year. The odds suggest another season of 3-3-5 as our most employed scheme. That's going to require a two-gapping 5 tech at LE, and I think Wolfe will be staying put. I'm going to plan my draft and offseason mocks around that concept.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:08 AM   #118
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I went back and watched the first half of the Ravens game and tallied the different defensive formations..

The Results:
4-3 Under/Over (Von at the LOS): 13
3-3-5: 6
2-4-5: 3
2-3-6: 1
4-2-5: 5

The only time there was a 0 technique was the only time we ran a 2-3-6, Wolfe played a 0 and Doom played a 6 technique.. Every other time there was shading over the shoulder which is one gapping! Even in 3-3-5 Wolfe played in a 6 technique.

He does SOME two gapping in our base 4-3 defense. Seattle uses Red Bryant to two gap the OT and Mebane Two gaps at NT, while Branch One gaps at DT.. Seattle also plays this style of penetrating and two gap holding to generate some pressure, but to allow seven box defenders to control 8 gaps without a safety in the box.

Wolfe does not out muscle and hold like Red Bryant, Wolfe pass rushes and gap shoots, but he sets the edge by rushing the outside shoulder of the OT and crashes inside on the run, which could be viewed as two gapping, but he is not used the same way Red Bryant is. Also none of our DTs two gap, or outmuscle and hold, they all penetrate. Seattle has a two gap NT and DE to help stop the run, with Irvin a blitzing SOLB like Miller, Branch a DT, and Clemons the DE used to pressure. It also works for them because they play press man which allows the pass rush to get home.

We almost always one gap, even Wolfe one gaps but he controls two gaps, do technically we are both right. We do not play press man like Seattle on the outside, though I wish we would. So I understand what you are saying about the draft, and how we can go either way, but unless we get bigger and more dominate at NT and at CB, then we cannot run our scheme like Seattles.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:31 AM   #119
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Want a Cullen Jenkins player? Draft Short out of Purdue.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:01 AM   #120
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Want a Cullen Jenkins player? Draft Short out of Purdue.
I really really like Kawann Short!
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:57 AM   #121
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Leonhard will be replaced by Carter..
Bannan by Bobby Williams my draft pick..
Unrein by hopefully a FA DT.. Knighton/Dorsey/Branch.. Maybe Garland from the PS.

I want to upgrade talent..
I want to upgrade talent too but Bannan/Vickerson/Leonhard all are bargain basement cheap that won't get signing bonuses at this stage of their careers.

All three of these guys need to come back in so that their replacements can actually beat them in camp.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:02 AM   #122
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Let me address the DE position that some would like to replace/upgrade..
In our scheme, the SDE needs to set the edge for Miller, push the pocket, and generate pressure of his own..

Next season Hunter should be resigned, which will probably be very reasonable after missing the season. By all accounts he was crushing it in camp and would have been the starter.. We bring him back and chances are Wolfe plays DT.
That means Ayers is Dooms back-up. He's still under contract and has played well in rotation. Jackson is the back up at strong side..

So why are we upgrading anything when these players will be under contract and are great in their roles? Dooms deal gets more cap friendly moving forward..
Hunter can't be counted on as a starter considering his age, injury and fact that he's sucked his entire career.

We still need a SDE that can rush the QB and plug the run.

Matt Shaughnessy would be my choice as he's been very productive before but had a down year this year but is a young player who's used to playing in the AFC West. The luxury choice here would be Michael Bennett or even Anthony Spencer but these guys are probably going to price themselves out.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:01 AM   #123
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Hunter can't be counted on as a starter considering his age, injury and fact that he's sucked his entire career.

We still need a SDE that can rush the QB and plug the run.

Matt Shaughnessy would be my choice as he's been very productive before but had a down year this year but is a young player who's used to playing in the AFC West. The luxury choice here would be Michael Bennett or even Anthony Spencer but these guys are probably going to price themselves out.
I would prefer give Malik Jackson some reps and an opportunity.. Hopefully sooner rather than later. That way we can approach free agency and or the draft.

I'd rather have Israel Idonije or Jason Jones.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:07 AM   #124
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At DT, we're continuing to do an equal 3 man rotation between Bannan, Vickerson, and Unrein, all seeing roughly 25 snaps, which is about a third of the defensive snaps. That usage suggests we don't overly value the DT position, so it may not be a high priority in the draft. This is consistent with how Fox has used his DTs in the past, journeymen on high rotation, part time roles.
Why do you selectively put stuff in? That's just misleading.

Jack Del Rio values stud DTs because in Jax he had Stroud/Henderson as blue chip players that were two of the best in the AFC for years.

See what I did there?
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:14 AM   #125
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I would prefer give Malik Jackson some reps and an opportunity.. Hopefully sooner rather than later. That way we can approach free agency and or the draft.
Why? Malik Jackson plays like a long term development project.

If he's on the field longer than a few plays, we're in trouble.
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