Shooting at Conn Elementary 27 dead including kids

[broncosteven]

[QUOTE=tesnyde;3753303]

Originally Posted by Kid A

I totally agree on the importance of strengthening the family unit and everything you said. I just don't agree with cutthemdown that "getting God back in schools" is the solution to such a deep problem; that seems like a simplistic, politically convenient stance to take when so much evidence points to the issues arising from broken homes.


I think many of the statements here today are over simplistic such as "Get a God back in school", this is a religion problem, this is just an American problem and Europe has it better, and crime rates saying we're just like the fifties. It's world wide, for every religious variable there exists a counter secular issue, and crime rates are highly political and manipulated so who knows what is true.

What I do know is there a lot of lost, isolated, scared, and scarred people out there. Religious freaks and secular sickos. You want good kids and citizens be a good parent and citizen yourself. Take care of your kids. Stay with your wives and visa versa. Have sit down dinners and asked your kids how they are doing. Ask the neighborhood kids how they are doing. let them know Being kind is cool. Say hi to your neighbors and strangers. Volunteer at your local schools. Read a book to some students. Fellas, how about joining Watch D.O.G.S. and if your kids school doesn't have it, bring it to the principal attention. Google it. It's a program that promotes dads, granddad, and other male figures involvement in schools, and school safety. You guys are mad, then lets do something. How about mentoring in schools. Our choice if we go to church or not, where we live, if we believe in gun rights, whatever, but its also our choice how we take care of kids and our neighbors. Get mad and do something about this crap.

I agree 100% with what you are saying. We need friends, family's and to be involved in our communities if we want real change.

That means volunteering, and being role models to not only our kids but others as well.

My 10 year old daughter volunteers already, I am on the board of the friends of our local library and an historical site in the area. We sit down to dinner EVERY night and we have blocks of time with no TV on (hard with a 5 and 10 year old). It doesn't mean my kids are perfect but they have a better shot at being more successful or adjusted than most.

I read an article in Time recently that suggested there either be a Mandatory enlistment for an armed force or Mandatory National Service requirement after High School (or age requirement). People would be taught disipline and perform service for others. Kids who didn't learn how to be successful in the home would get it in an enviroment where they help other people and their community.

It feels good to be involved in the community and help others. Try it people.

[sinuous sausage]

[QUOTE=broncosteven;3753826]

Originally Posted by tesnyde

I agree 100% with what you are saying. We need friends, family's and to be involved in our communities if we want real change.

That means volunteering, and being role models to not only our kids but others as well.

My 10 year old daughter volunteers already, I am on the board of the friends of our local library and an historical site in the area. We sit down to dinner EVERY night and we have blocks of time with no TV on (hard with a 5 and 10 year old). It doesn't mean my kids are perfect but they have a better shot at being more successful or adjusted than most.

I read an article in Time recently that suggested there either be a Mandatory enlistment for an armed force or Mandatory National Service requirement after High School (or age requirement). People would be taught disipline and perform service for others. Kids who didn't learn how to be successful in the home would get it in an enviroment where they help other people and their community.

It feels good to be involved in the community and help others. Try it people.

good post.

[gunns]

Originally Posted by Action

... you seem like you're very uninformed. Saying autism isn't a mental illness is actually medically correct, however, it's really gives people the same picture of the situation because how uninformed society is.

To make it simple:

Austism is something kids are BORN with...a disorder.

Mental illness is something people DEVELOP.

In this case, he was AUTISTIC. He can't be given a pill to treat his situation. If you do research in aspergers and some others, you will find that people with these conditions cannot feel for other people, they can only feel for themselves. Literally, if they see someone in pain, they can't feel anything for that person. They CAN'T, not that they don't WANT.

Like I said, anything else is a cop out... and individual that is aware on mental health would understand what this situation is about.

Really? I didn't know you knew him. The reports I'm hearing is that there is no confirmation that he was autistic. I know about autism and the way the children are. It's rare you can give them a hug, or get in their world. I was not associating them to my feelings on mental health at all. I said I was watching a Dr and families with autistic kids and they said they find it hard to believe he was autistic and took this action. Obviously it's rare.

[Irish Stout]

Originally Posted by DENVERDUI55

You have to fill out background check.

That isn't a test. Its one step, but that doesn't give any indication that the individual purchasing the gun knows how to use it safely, store it safely, or will be a responsible gun owner.

[Action]

Originally Posted by gunns

Really? I didn't know you knew him. The reports I'm hearing is that there is no confirmation that he was autistic. I know about autism and the way the children are. It's rare you can give them a hug, or get in their world. I was not associating them to my feelings on mental health at all. I said I was watching a Dr and families with autistic kids and they said they find it hard to believe he was autistic and took this action. Obviously it's rare.

All reports say they believe he had a personality disorder/autism. The neighbors also said this.

You cannot be 20 years old and not have a disorder to go and shoot up kids without feeling a damn thing, there is NO POINT. What would one who could feel GAIN for shooting up kids? This is different from school shootings that involve bullying.

And no, just because a kid is autistic doesn't mean you can't hug them or get in their world. There are different spectrums of autisms. There is a SCALE. This is what I'm talking about, just because I put in the word autistic you automatically have a vision of a stereotype. It doesn't function like this.

This is like you saying I know about black people...they're usually athletes and very fast. That's literally what you just said about autism.

Now tell me, do you think society is informed enough about mental conditions?

Families with autistic kids isn't deep enough, some kids might have an autistic kid who can't function. (higher end of the scale). Their child would be irrelevant here since it's not the same condition.

I'm sure the Dr.'s would obviously be surprised it went to this extent, but there are autistic kids who resort to violence once things don't go their way. That's just the seed. I didn't see these doctors, but depending on their specialty and experience, that would play a role too.

You combine this with whatever life this kid has had, what he's been exposed to, and how he thinks about it + having the access of guns/irresponsible mom then you have a situation.

Yes this is a rare case... no one shoots up a school full of kids.

According to reports, they have found what they believe is motive... so that will be interesting.

[baja]

Originally Posted by Action

All reports say they believe he had a personality disorder/autism. The neighbors also said this.

You cannot be 20 years old and not have a disorder to go and shoot up kids without feeling a damn thing, there is NO POINT. What would one who could feel GAIN for shooting up kids? This is different from school shootings that involve bullying.

And no, just because a kid is autistic doesn't mean you can't hug them or get in their world. There are different spectrums of autisms. There is a SCALE. This is what I'm talking about, just because I put in the word autistic you automatically have a vision of a stereotype. It doesn't function like this.

This is like you saying I know about black people...they're usually athletes and very fast. That's literally what you just said about autism.

Now tell me, do you think society is informed enough about mental conditions?

Families with autistic kids isn't deep enough, some kids might have an autistic kid who can't function. (higher end of the scale). Their child would be irrelevant here since it's not the same condition.

I'm sure the Dr.'s would obviously be surprised it went to this extent, but there are autistic kids who resort to violence once things don't go their way. That's just the seed.

You combine this with whatever life this kid has had, what he's been exposed to, and how he thinks about it + having the access of guns/irresponsible mom then you have a situation.

Yes this is a rare case... no one shoots up a school full of kids.

According to reports, they have found what they believe is motive... so that will be interesting.

One question. If what you say is true (no feelings) why did you he kill himself?

[Action]

Originally Posted by baja

One question. If what you say is true (no feelings) why did you he kill himself?

I have no idea, I'm not a specialist nor do I know the details of motive and his true symptoms.

I do know that there are so many forms of autisms that there is a bunch of money in the field, it's just not something that's in public like black people and guns.

I mean, he could have easily got pissed of and said, I'm going to kill all these kids then kill myself because I hate my life and I want to kill these kids because they caused me pain.

Just too many variables... hopefully the details of motive comes out soon.

EDIT
When I say some have no feelings, it means they have no feelings for OTHER people, but they have feelings for themselves.

[lonestar]

[QUOTE=broncosteven;3753826]

Originally Posted by tesnyde

I agree 100% with what you are saying. We need friends, family's and to be involved in our communities if we want real change.

That means volunteering, and being role models to not only our kids but others as well.

My 10 year old daughter volunteers already, I am on the board of the friends of our local library and an historical site in the area. We sit down to dinner EVERY night and we have blocks of time with no TV on (hard with a 5 and 10 year old). It doesn't mean my kids are perfect but they have a better shot at being more successful or adjusted than most.

I read an article in Time recently that suggested there either be a Mandatory enlistment for an armed force or Mandatory National Service requirement after High School (or age requirement). People would be taught disipline and perform service for others. Kids who didn't learn how to be successful in the home would get it in an enviroment where they help other people and their community.

It feels good to be involved in the community and help others. Try it people.

Glad to know at least one family is functional in the USA.. Only wished that more would be..

as for the time article i did not see it but after my time in the military I have thought the same thing for decades..

Instead of allowing kiddies to go to college right away for many they are not mentally ready to be on their own.. let them serve in the military, job corps as care takers for the elderly or in day cares.. but mainly the former two make them go to a boot camp type function to learn how to do things for themselves, giving back to the country in some manner..

when they are done with their service we pay for matching years of college in a state school or a trade school of some sort..

IMO they will be better motivated to actually learn something in school as well as more mature.. This gives us some service back to the US and just maybe makes them into a real person..


for those not going on to school just perhaps they may figure out this is better than flipping burgers or selling drugs..

[Action]

Pakistan

[Schism]

So looks like the Westboro Baptist Church are going to picket the funerals.

That'll go well.

[sinuous sausage]

the problem is when "autism" becomes so comprehensive that the term becomes essentially devoid of meaning. we all probably demonstrate some tendency that could be described as autistic, so I dunno if keying in on that would really solve anything.

sounds like he took his parents' divorce pretty hard.

[Action]

Originally Posted by sinuous sausage

the problem is when "autism" becomes so comprehensive that the term becomes essentially devoid of meaning. we all probably demonstrate some tendency that could be described as autistic, so I dunno if keying in on that would really solve anything.

sounds like he took his parents' divorce pretty hard.

That's if you're talking about minor situations. He obviously had a DISORDER, not just an autistic tick.

This isn't a minor situation.... there was obviously something wrong with him. His brother hadn't seem him for 2+ years? His dad doesn't see him?

[Blighty]

Why do people even want guns?

[gunns]

Originally Posted by Action

All reports say they believe he had a personality disorder/autism. The neighbors also said this.

You cannot be 20 years old and not have a disorder to go and shoot up kids without feeling a damn thing, there is NO POINT. What would one who could feel GAIN for shooting up kids? This is different from school shootings that involve bullying.

And no, just because a kid is autistic doesn't mean you can't hug them or get in their world. There are different spectrums of autisms. There is a SCALE. This is what I'm talking about, just because I put in the word autistic you automatically have a vision of a stereotype. It doesn't function like this.

This is like you saying I know about black people...they're usually athletes and very fast. That's literally what you just said about autism.

Now tell me, do you think society is informed enough about mental conditions?

Families with autistic kids isn't deep enough, some kids might have an autistic kid who can't function. (higher end of the scale). Their child would be irrelevant here since it's not the same condition.

I'm sure the Dr.'s would obviously be surprised it went to this extent, but there are autistic kids who resort to violence once things don't go their way. That's just the seed. I didn't see these doctors, but depending on their specialty and experience, that would play a role too.

You combine this with whatever life this kid has had, what he's been exposed to, and how he thinks about it + having the access of guns/irresponsible mom then you have a situation.

Yes this is a rare case... no one shoots up a school full of kids.

According to reports, they have found what they believe is motive... so that will be interesting.

A personality disorder is a mental illness. Autism is not. That's what you did not comprehend in my initial post. I was dogging on the mental illness, not the autism. Why is it when a Muslim kills someone they are a terrorist, when a black or hispanic kills someone they are a gang member but when a white kills they had psychological problems. What I said in my initial post is this mental illness labeling has given these a-holes an excuse for bad behavior. They are aware of what they are doing and it's a choice.

Yes, I agree, anyone who does something like this is insane. Anyone. But there are many different interpretations of insane.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Why do people even want guns?

many reasons..

for some it is a hobby,
for others it is a vocation, still others use them for hunting food.

for myself to kill the no good clown trying to rob/kill me with the gun/knife/machette they have..

[errand]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Why do people even want guns?

I have no idea why anyone would want to own a gun.....(sarcasm)

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by lonestar

many reasons..

for some it is a hobby,
for others it is a vocation, still others use them for hunting food.

for myself to kill the no good clown trying to rob/kill me with the gun/knife/machette they have..

I can accept if farmers need them, but why can't hunters have their guns at the local police station, for the guns to be checked in and out? There's absolutely no reason for anyone to own an assault rifle, absolutely no reason whatsoever. If people enjoy it as a hobby then maybe they should join or start a clay pigeon shooting group instead of slaughtering animals 'for fun'.

Considering you can't ban people, guns is the obvious suggestion. 'Right to own a firearm', sounds as prehistoric as 'right to own a slave'.

[st.bernard]

Originally Posted by lonestar

many reasons..

for some it is a hobby,
for others it is a vocation, still others use them for hunting food.

for myself to kill the no good clown trying to rob/kill me with the gun/knife/machette they have..

good answer.
thomas jefferson..no guns, you get to plow for those that have 'em. (paraphrased that)
and just my .02 pennies....why should my govt fear guns in the hands of it's citizens? the answer to that is scary. It is becoming painfully obvious that people don't secure their weapons and others get ahold of them. Trigger Locks, safes...etc

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by Blighty

I can accept if farmers need them, but why can't hunters have their guns at the local police station, for the guns to be checked in and out? There's absolutely no reason for anyone to own an assault rifle, absolutely no reason whatsoever. If people enjoy it as a hobby then maybe they should join or start a clay pigeon shooting group instead of slaughtering animals 'for fun'.

Considering you can't ban people, guns is the obvious suggestion. 'Right to own a firearm', sounds as prehistoric as 'right to own a slave'.

Most farmers do not shot corn, or potatoes.

As for checking guns in and out of the copper shop. No way I allow anyone to handle my gun, rifle or weapon but family.

Most hunters are not out for fun they keep and eat their kill.

I realize that you are shown in England and had we had your views on firearms perhaps we would still be a colony.

Most Americans believe that owning a firearms is a right and responsiblity that is a core belief, a right given us by our constitution.

A concept a Limey would never get.

[errand]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Why do people even want guns?

Of course this kind of **** never makes the national headlines....now if this old man had accidently shot a neighbor? Then it would be all over the news....

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by st.bernard

good answer.
thomas jefferson..no guns, you get to plow for those that have 'em. (paraphrased that)
and just my .02 pennies....why should my govt fear guns in the hands of it's citizens? the answer to that is scary. It is becoming painfully obvious that people don't secure their weapons and others get ahold of them. Trigger Locks, safes...etc

Actually I believe that the only reason the government has not done more to infringe rights of its citizens are all of us that own guns.

BTW blighty the average response time for a home invasion for a 911 call to the police is 27 minutes. The response time from my Glock is slightly more than the speed light.

[errand]

[errand]

After he was robbed, he started carrying his 9mm...and like he says, he isn't looking for trouble...but he is ready in case it comes looking for him. Hopefully this is enough testimony for blighty as to why most people (other than criminals) own guns

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by lonestar

Most farmers do not shot corn, or potatoes.

As for checking guns in and out of the copper shop. No way I allow anyone to handle my gun, rifle or weapon but family.

Most hunters are not out for fun they keep and eat their kill.

I realize that you are shown in England and had we had your views on firearms perhaps we would still be a colony.

Most Americans believe that owning a firearms is a right and responsiblity that is a core belief, a right given us by our constitution.

A concept a Limey would never get.

I'm sure most farmers wouldn't want their livestock to be picked off by foxes. Why would you be so against someone handling your gun?

Sure it's very difficult/near impossible to stop nutjobs and people with mental disorders, but why wouldn't people want a level of gun control that is similar to that in the UK or around Europe? If the US adopted similar measures then it could save thousands of lives. What's so bad about that.

I really don't understand the machismo that surrounds guns. It has one purpose and that's to kill.

Also, I saw your comments about video games. You do realise that the video games you play, the music you listen to and the movies you watch aren't exclusive to America?

[sinuous sausage]

Originally Posted by Blighty

I can accept if farmers need them, but why can't hunters have their guns at the local police station, for the guns to be checked in and out? There's absolutely no reason for anyone to own an assault rifle, absolutely no reason whatsoever. If people enjoy it as a hobby then maybe they should join or start a clay pigeon shooting group instead of slaughtering animals 'for fun'.

Considering you can't ban people, guns is the obvious suggestion. 'Right to own a firearm', sounds as prehistoric as 'right to own a slave'.

Americans are culturally different than Europeans, and that extends to our attitude towards government. We became a country through drastically different means than cheery ole Albion, and the concepts of self-determination and negative liberty play a large role in our gun laws. The individual conscience is not trifled with, and you can see that borne out in our speech laws as well as our gun laws. We don't ban 'hate speech' like some European countries do, for instance, and we think people have a right to rely on themselves for protection.

Gun control also has a racist background, so it's interesting you equated slavery with possession of a firearm.

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=5122

I quote the eminent Ice-T:

"I’ll give up my gun when everybody else does…if there were guns here, would you want to be the only one without one?...It’s legal in the United States. The right to bear arms is because that’s the last form of defense against tyranny, not to hunt. It’s to protect yourself from the police.”