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Old 12-14-2012, 09:53 PM   #251
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Sad day. Can we keep the political bull**** out. Take it to wrp
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:33 PM   #252
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I'm not religious but your "argument" dumbs down the concept of god to fit your disdain for the concept. You're far more intelligent that I am, and you know that almost all religions believe god created man with free will.

I'm not going to get into god here because I don't feel the need to justify any belief I may have, or denigrate yours.

But I am going to leave this thread, as it's clear that in typical fashion... people are using the death's of children to advance their own political agendas.

Peace.
It has nothing to do with politics. I'm serious about it. Whether humans have free will or not, a benevolent god cannot sit by and watch such things happen. This is what drove me from belief. This kind of disregard for evil. The last straw for me was the tsunami in Japan. A school was swept away with something like 64 children in it. That's when I stop buying into it.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:36 PM   #253
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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
- Epicurus
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:57 PM   #254
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Ironic as values decay & the godless continue their attack on religion, the family, etc, things are eradicated from society as we know it, these attacks are starting to multiply. Things that make you go hmmmmmm....
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:45 AM   #255
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Since god is omniscient, omnipresent and omnieverything else (see? I remember my catechism) I'm presuming he was sitting, or standing, or floating somewhere or other, and observed this entire thing taking place. He heard every prayer. Every cry for mercy. Every cry for mommy. In other words, he watched. What's the point of being omnipowerful if you don't take action? And now the community is praying to him to help them get through this? This is why religion requires a leap of faith. Logically, it is insane.

The only way it makes sense is if the crazy ape himself made up this god. Then, it makes perfect sense.
Judgement?
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:01 AM   #256
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Ironic as values decay & the godless continue their attack on religion, the family, etc, things are eradicated from society as we know it, these attacks are starting to multiply. Things that make you go hmmmmmm....
Pretty conservative thinking for OM. Watch your back.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:05 AM   #257
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It has nothing to do with politics. I'm serious about it. Whether humans have free will or not, a benevolent god cannot sit by and watch such things happen. This is what drove me from belief. This kind of disregard for evil. The last straw for me was the tsunami in Japan. A school was swept away with something like 64 children in it. That's when I stop buying into it.
Your argument about you being "driven from belief" is predicated on the the fact that dying is a bad thing. What if it's not? What if the people that died were, in fact, rewarded in death?

I have 5 kids and, God forbid, anything like this happened to them, I pray that I'd have the strength to believe they were in a better place. That they were chosen because of their belief and being rewarded.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:10 AM   #258
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Religion gets blamed for violence and blamed for evil events the god allows to happen. It's obvious that people who have turned their backs and closed their hearts to the love of God just don't understand faith and how free choice plays into that. A world without evil would have no personal challenge of faith. Maybe it is all BS but when believed it gives strength and helps people cope with things like this.

Many of you seem to think the govt can help by limiting guns but i doubt that would be the end of mass killings like this.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:20 AM   #259
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Your argument about you being "driven from belief" is predicated on the the fact that dying is a bad thing. What if it's not? What if the people that died were, in fact, rewarded in death?

I have 5 kids and, God forbid, anything like this happened to them, I pray that I'd have the strength to believe they were in a better place. That they were chosen because of their belief and being rewarded.
I think it's okay, and good for families to think their children are in a better place and that they will see them again. If this belief helps these poor parents to cope, or gives them any sense of hope and faith to live on, then great.

With that said however, I reject the notion that a life ever taken away is ever a "reward" from god. If these children were chosen to be shot and brutally murdered in that way, it's not a god I'd want to believe in. Religion is a complicated issue, and one in which each person believes differently. I can respect that.

But life is precious, even if there is an afterlife. We shouldn't minimize the huge loss of life by using the word "rewarded." Not to mention, these kids at their young ages most likely never even had chance to "find" themselves and what they truly believe. So to say they were being "rewarded" for their belief seems wrong.

This is just a truly devastating and awful event. One of many that occur frequently around the planet, and in our country. Violence happens every day around the world. Maybe not at this level, but it still happens. So let's put the blame of this on our violent culture and mental illness where it should be and not anything else. People who are claiming it's due to "godlesness" are obviously idiots and ignorant to all of the violence stemming from religion throughout history. Furthermore, to those talking about free will, you can't believe in free will when a gunman decides to murder children, and then say god just wanted them in a better place. How does that make sense?

Last edited by Dexter; 12-15-2012 at 01:35 AM..
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:41 AM   #260
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This has nothing to do with religion or guns.

This has to do with an 20 year old autistic male. He had a condition...he was obviously unable to feel anything for another human being, or anyone else. This isn't about a criminal who went out and sought for guns to plan and scheme this operation. This is about a human who is INCAPABLE of feeling for someone else, and thinking like a "normal" person would.

This is about mental health... guns is a cop out. I have no idea what religion is doing in here.

Last edited by Action; 12-15-2012 at 01:52 AM..
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:57 AM   #261
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Ironic as values decay & the godless continue their attack on religion, the family, etc, things are eradicated from society as we know it, these attacks are starting to multiply. Things that make you go hmmmmmm....
Another OMane myth.

Anyone who's studied criminology knows and can back up with data, the fact that crime and, most importantly to this discussion, the rate of mass murders in this country and the world in general have not gone up in the last few years. Thanks to the media and internet, etc, it SEEMS like these horrible things are happening more, but they're not.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:30 AM   #262
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I can barely imagine what the parents of the slain children are going through.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:39 AM   #263
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It is a truly sad thing that happened. As a father and step-father, it only breaks my heart. But, I do honestly feel that there is a breakdown in our society. A whole list of social ill's that are endemic to what our society has become. No personal responsibility is a biggie. People refusing to get jobs, just living off the public dole. The entire idea of gun control though makes me want to puke. The forefathers of our country I honestly believe would go apoplectic if they could see what we have turned this country into. A person in an earlier thread pointed out the breakdown of families and families eating together. This would be an excellent starting point. Social values have completely broken down. Case in point. Colorado just passed the pot law making maryijuana legal. Really? Violance in everything. We glorify war. The gaming industry makes a great living off of violence. Call of Duty anyone? Gaming is just that, gaming. But it is so pervasive. Parental oversight of our kids. Corporal punishment is frowned on. I do believe that our society has come of the tracks and not sure that it will ever get back on. There are just so many things wrong with society's values today. And, the loss of these values is coming at the top of our government also. Call me old fashioned. But, since I rambled on, mainly from anger and grief at what happened, my thoughts are with those that suffered devastating losses yesterday morning. At Christmas. Peace everyone.
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:00 AM   #264
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I'm one who believes that heaven is a better, yet obivously unknown place. I would never believe my children were "chosen" to die. I believe God loves EVERYONE equally and because of free agency given to us, God is in mourning over the choice of a young man. But those children were most special to God and were welcomed directly into his arms. As a parent, even with those beliefs, my heart would be torn out, my hopes and dreams shattered. Yes, I would turn to God for some sense of relief but I know only time would make it easier, but would never heal the huge hole in my life.

This was not God's will, it was Adam Lanza's choice. And I feel God is sad about that, for those children and for Adam.
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:02 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by st.bernard View Post
It is a truly sad thing that happened. As a father and step-father, it only breaks my heart. But, I do honestly feel that there is a breakdown in our society. A whole list of social ill's that are endemic to what our society has become. No personal responsibility is a biggie. People refusing to get jobs, just living off the public dole. The entire idea of gun control though makes me want to puke. The forefathers of our country I honestly believe would go apoplectic if they could see what we have turned this country into. A person in an earlier thread pointed out the breakdown of families and families eating together. This would be an excellent starting point. Social values have completely broken down. Case in point. Colorado just passed the pot law making maryijuana legal. Really? Violance in everything. We glorify war. The gaming industry makes a great living off of violence. Call of Duty anyone? Gaming is just that, gaming. But it is so pervasive. Parental oversight of our kids. Corporal punishment is frowned on. I do believe that our society has come of the tracks and not sure that it will ever get back on. There are just so many things wrong with society's values today. And, the loss of these values is coming at the top of our government also. Call me old fashioned. But, since I rambled on, mainly from anger and grief at what happened, my thoughts are with those that suffered devastating losses yesterday morning. At Christmas. Peace everyone.
Fail
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:07 AM   #266
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It has nothing to do with politics. I'm serious about it. Whether humans have free will or not, a benevolent god cannot sit by and watch such things happen. This is what drove me from belief. This kind of disregard for evil. The last straw for me was the tsunami in Japan. A school was swept away with something like 64 children in it. That's when I stop buying into it.
meh. if god exists, I wouldn't imagine he solicits your or anyone else's advice on what he can or cannot do. the emotional blowback from catastrophes is certainly understandable, but don't you wonder from where your sense of injustice comes? if an act really is evil, it means good and evil exist, and that infers god. I can't figuratively beat god into a nonentity with the concepts that only a god could ever give me. that's illogical.

Natural disasters are on another level of seeming senselessness, in that there is no human free will involved.
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:11 AM   #267
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This has nothing to do with religion or guns.

This has to do with an 20 year old autistic male. He had a condition...he was obviously unable to feel anything for another human being, or anyone else. This isn't about a criminal who went out and sought for guns to plan and scheme this operation. This is about a human who is INCAPABLE of feeling for someone else, and thinking like a "normal" person would.

This is about mental health... guns is a cop out. I have no idea what religion is doing in here.
sure, but plenty of autistic people never develop an urge to go shoot-up an elementary school. what else is at play?
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:21 AM   #268
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:38 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
Religion gets blamed for violence and blamed for evil events the god allows to happen. It's obvious that people who have turned their backs and closed their hearts to the love of God just don't understand faith and how free choice plays into that. A world without evil would have no personal challenge of faith. Maybe it is all BS but when believed it gives strength and helps people cope with things like this.

Many of you seem to think the govt can help by limiting guns but i doubt that would be the end of mass killings like this.
Just ask the people of NY and Chicago how the ban on weapons has affected the crime rate.........
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:41 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by st.bernard View Post
It is a truly sad thing that happened. As a father and step-father, it only breaks my heart. But, I do honestly feel that there is a breakdown in our society. A whole list of social ill's that are endemic to what our society has become. No personal responsibility is a biggie. People refusing to get jobs, just living off the public dole. The entire idea of gun control though makes me want to puke. The forefathers of our country I honestly believe would go apoplectic if they could see what we have turned this country into. A person in an earlier thread pointed out the breakdown of families and families eating together. This would be an excellent starting point. Social values have completely broken down. Case in point. Colorado just passed the pot law making maryijuana legal. Really? Violance in everything. We glorify war. The gaming industry makes a great living off of violence. Call of Duty anyone? Gaming is just that, gaming. But it is so pervasive. Parental oversight of our kids. Corporal punishment is frowned on. I do believe that our society has come of the tracks and not sure that it will ever get back on. There are just so many things wrong with society's values today. And, the loss of these values is coming at the top of our government also. Call me old fashioned. But, since I rambled on, mainly from anger and grief at what happened, my thoughts are with those that suffered devastating losses yesterday morning. At Christmas. Peace everyone.
Taco......where is the like button? "Like"
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:17 AM   #271
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:54 AM   #272
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I'm one who believes that heaven is a better, yet obivously unknown place. I would never believe my children were "chosen" to die. I believe God loves EVERYONE equally and because of free agency given to us, God is in mourning over the choice of a young man. But those children were most special to God and were welcomed directly into his arms. As a parent, even with those beliefs, my heart would be torn out, my hopes and dreams shattered. Yes, I would turn to God for some sense of relief but I know only time would make it easier, but would never heal the huge hole in my life.

This was not God's will, it was Adam Lanza's choice. And I feel God is sad about that, for those children and for Adam.
Well put
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:54 AM   #273
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:56 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by c_lazy_r View Post
Your argument about you being "driven from belief" is predicated on the the fact that dying is a bad thing. What if it's not? What if the people that died were, in fact, rewarded in death?

I have 5 kids and, God forbid, anything like this happened to them, I pray that I'd have the strength to believe they were in a better place. That they were chosen because of their belief and being rewarded.
A true "reward" for these kids would have been to go home to their mommies and daddies and sleep in their own beds. To suggest that such a death can be interpreted as a reward is macabre, at best.
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:00 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by st.bernard View Post
It is a truly sad thing that happened. As a father and step-father, it only breaks my heart. But, I do honestly feel that there is a breakdown in our society. A whole list of social ill's that are endemic to what our society has become. No personal responsibility is a biggie. People refusing to get jobs, just living off the public dole. The entire idea of gun control though makes me want to puke. The forefathers of our country I honestly believe would go apoplectic if they could see what we have turned this country into. A person in an earlier thread pointed out the breakdown of families and families eating together. This would be an excellent starting point. Social values have completely broken down. Case in point. Colorado just passed the pot law making maryijuana legal. Really? Violance in everything. We glorify war. The gaming industry makes a great living off of violence. Call of Duty anyone? Gaming is just that, gaming. But it is so pervasive. Parental oversight of our kids. Corporal punishment is frowned on. I do believe that our society has come of the tracks and not sure that it will ever get back on. There are just so many things wrong with society's values today. And, the loss of these values is coming at the top of our government also. Call me old fashioned. But, since I rambled on, mainly from anger and grief at what happened, my thoughts are with those that suffered devastating losses yesterday morning. At Christmas. Peace everyone.
In every generation somebody makes this same lament, that the values and mores of society are breaking down. There was a famous one written by Plato, and another about fifteen hundred years later by Juvenal. Both complained that the young were turning away from the gods and the values of their forefathers. As Vonnegut used to say, "And so it goes."
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