Shooting at Conn Elementary 27 dead including kids

[mkporter]

Originally Posted by Drunken.Broncoholic

If someone wants to kill they will find a gun. They aren't going to just bottle up their evil and say "**** it. I can't find a gun so I guess I won't shoot anyone."

Sometimes this is true, sometimes not. There are plenty of crimes of passion, in which the perpetrator would have chosen an alternate resolution if a gun had not been readily available. Look at the Jovan Belcher mess. He and his lady get into a fight about who the real baby-daddy is, and, oh look there are guns laying all over the house.

If it is harder to acquire assault weapons, it will at least take longer for people to acquire them. That leaves time for them to reconsider, or from someone to notice and intervene.

I agree that more effective gun control is not the ultimate answer to all of violent crime problems, nor is the prevalence of guns the cause of our violent crime problems. I do believe having more effective gun control reduces the frequency and severity of gun violence.

Destigmatizing and encouraging mental health care is our best answer, IMO, but we still have way too many guns.

[El Minion]

Originally Posted by TheElusiveKyleOrton

Right. Because they're totally related.

cutthemdown has the answer to every problem: praying to skygod.

I see you haven't been touched by His Noodly Appendage as Cutthemdown has:

[rugbythug]

Originally Posted by El Minion

I see you haven't been touched by His Noodly Appendage as Cutthemdown has:

[IMG]http://images1.wikia.nocook
ie.net/__cb20090119201511/fallout/imagesUser_800px-Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg[/IMG]

Any reason you need to be a dick?

[Rohirrim]

I've become comfortably numb.

[sinuous sausage]

Originally Posted by Prodigal19

Im pretty sure you realize you are being ridiculous but Ill entertain you anyways.
Abortion rates have been dropping for the past 30 years.

http://www.mccl.org/us-abortion-stats.html
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/poli...husabrate.html

a pretty sizable decrease for white women. not so much in minority communities, tho they've historically been at ~4x higher rate for African-American women and ~2x higher rate for Hispanic women.

[Irish Stout]

Originally Posted by broncocalijohn

how many more gun laws do you want? As we take guns out of law abiding hands, it is free reign for the criminals. Let me know when a criminal is going to listen to a gun law and therefore, no longer be that criminal?

I'm not trying to be a d-bag with this question, but I do want to know. When have guns come out of the hands of law abiding citizens? My right to own a gun has never been hindered, so I don't know how gun regulation (not limitation) has effected us.

[sinuous sausage]

a lot of shoddy analysis going down in this thread, IMO, so mine will fit right in.

the belief that our godless society has enabled this is simultaneously misguided and insightful. being 'godless' as an informed or philosophical POV is actually something I encourage, but the problem is most 'godless' ppl today are godless simply because they don't care enough about those types of questions to actually ever attempt answering them. it's a de facto type of godlessness due to shallow ignorance, not any kind of enlightened study. I also think religious institutions are a net societal good, and that there are plenty of good reasons to believe in god and engage in community, not the least of which is a sense a belonging and developing meaningful relationships with other human beings. I imagine it a chore to be a mass murderer if you're constantly barraged with goodwill and messages of love. I hypothesize that basically just being concerned with existence and making honest attempts to understand it would raise the level of discourse and behavior in society. I don't care whether the fear of god or a deeper realization of your identity as a human being is what keeps you in line, just as long as it's effective. too many live for the next 15 minutes, and I'm among the worse.


in respect to the tiff about where and why violence takes place, I would remind those who somehow think "Bible Belt = violent anarchy" to consider the many different factors contributing to a violence rate. the American south is generally poorer and more ethnically diverse than the midwest, northeast, mountain west, or northwest part of the country. most of the violence is young, poor, black men committing crimes against other young, poor, black men. these tragedies are the lion's share of murders and robberies every year, and the evaluation as to why and how would probably not include religious turf wars. I think the stats show white, christian, southern suburbia to consistently be amongst the safest places in the country. another interesting thing to note is the prevalence of these mass shootings (Aurora, Wisconsin, Oregon, and now Connecticut) to be in affluent, white communities safely out of the Bible Belt. I don't really have a plausible theory as to why, but blaming this on Bubba doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.


it's a goddamn tragedy what happened today. I'm visibly agitated and was on the verge of tears while sitting in traffic on my commute home. I tuned into NPR and they were interviewing all these criminologists and psychologists who basically said there is no profile for this type if thing. perfectly sane people demonstrate the same personality quirks and behaviors as these killers. the next one could be anybody, and the frequency of these types of crimes is consistent across decades. these sadists aren't going anywhere, and I'd prefer to preserve the option to blow one away should the opportunity arise, for myself and for my community.

[Agamemnon]

This isn't about guns people. This is about the degrading mental health of people in the modern world. Who knows what the solution is, but getting rid of guns is trying to treat the symptom rather than the disease.

[extralife]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

This isn't about guns people. This is about the degrading mental health of people in the modern world. Who knows what the solution is, but getting rid of guns is trying to treat the symptom rather than the disease.

this is true

but treating the symptoms is also what every doctor in the world does, and is in fact taught to do. kind of sucks, but its also kind of effective, kind of necessary, and certainly better than nothing. there comes a point where the childish whims of caprice and the irrational bonds of selfish self-identification are simply no longer worth it. losing your little toys, codified as a tragedy because someone with money in the market told you (general you) it was about the constitution, which you or I don't actually care about, is simply Not A Big Deal. you still got trucks and beer and the R lever. make do. we have too many guns in this country, and those guns shoot people who then die. one step at a time.

the real reason serious gun regulation will never happen in this country is because there is too much money moving around, which is the exact same reason anything that ever does or does not happen does, in fact, happen or not happen. we have to take responsibility for the society we live in. part of that is guns. part of that is money. part of that is our social makeup, which breeds the kind of alienation and destabilization that leads to these kinds of things with frightening and growing regularity. I'm sick of it. the now-standard response of mourn-the-victims-on-TV/forget-the-killer/argue-about-easily-defined-political-issues cycle that follows these events is a cancer, it is a means of writing everything off as an acceptable loss so that we can have a reason to go do what we were going to do anyway. it is about narcissism, about making everything about our own whims and pre-installed belief systems.

[sinuous sausage]

Originally Posted by extralife

this is true

but treating the symptoms is also what every doctor in the world does, and is in fact taught to do. kind of sucks, but its also kind of effective, kind of necessary, and certainly better than nothing. there comes a point where the childish whims of caprice and the irrational bonds of selfish self-identification are simply no longer worth it. losing your little toys, codified as a tragedy because someone with money in the market told you (general you) it was about the constitution, which you or I don't actually care about, is simply Not A Big Deal. you still got trucks and beer and the R lever. make do. we have too many guns in this country, and those guns shoot people who then die. one step at a time.

this is assuming ppl don't believe guns can protect and deter from violent aggression. that they're crucial to living independently and well.

gun control is more like palliative care geared towards ephemeral comfort than any kind of actual healing.

[Arkie]

Originally Posted by Kid A

Exactly. The US (along with most the world) has gotten significantly less violent over the last century. These mass shootings are an outlier phenomenon to a generally very good trend for our society. Which only increases the need for us to figure out why they happen and how best to stop them.

Mass murderers are seeking attention. I think increased media attention has attracted more copycats.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by extralife

this is true

but treating the symptoms is also what every doctor in the world does, and is in fact taught to do. kind of sucks, but its also kind of effective, kind of necessary, and certainly better than nothing. there comes a point where the childish whims of caprice and the irrational bonds of selfish self-identification are simply no longer worth it. losing your little toys, codified as a tragedy because someone with money in the market told you (general you) it was about the constitution, which you or I don't actually care about, is simply Not A Big Deal. you still got trucks and beer and the R lever. make do. we have too many guns in this country, and those guns shoot people who then die. one step at a time.

I personally don't own any guns. But if you think that gun control is going to fix things you are delusional. Most hardened criminals already purchase their weapons through illicit means, and while it might reduce these kinds of shootings somewhat, it won't fix gun crime in general. If anything it will simply expose many law abiding citizens to more gun violence.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

Humans can be so goddamn terrible it defies belief. I have four kids and this is literally my worst imaginable fear in real life.

[extralife]

Originally Posted by sinuous sausage

this is assuming ppl don't believe guns can protect and deter from violent aggression. that they're crucial to living independently and well.

gun control is more like palliative care geared towards ephemeral comfort than any kind of actual healing.

guns are not crucial to anything. you don't hunt for sustenance, you go buy your food at wal mart and then dream about hunting for sustenance. you don't protect your neighbors from black people violent sociopaths, you dream about the possibility of protecting your neighbors from violent sociopaths, so that you can then pretend you are a hero. there is no independence here. there is only fantasy. the gun represents an extension of the way you see yourself. find a new representation, because the reality of this fantasy is that people who actually do think about shooting living things in terms of reality are aided by your narcissism.

your post above is a pretty good one. where it doesn't veer into apology for a certain lifestyle, I think you are right. but if your argument is that guns deter from violent aggression, you will have to ask yourself, and genuinely believe the answer, whether or not the presence of a gun on the person of a victim or possible victim has ever saved as many lives as were just lost today, never mind all other days. we hear stories about violent people shooting up public places twice a year. have you ever heard a story about a violent person attempting to shoot up a public place, only he was stopped by your average fantasy suburbanite packing heat? and do you truly believe that the people vehemently against gun regulation are against it because they truly believe that guns are a net good? or do they just want to have a gun because guns are ****ing cool?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Arkie

Mass murderers are seeking attention. I think increased media attention has attracted more copycats.

No doubt there's probably something to that. They'd be mentally deranged either way, but the constant media exposure of these events almost certainly influences them to take this course of action rather than something less massive in scope.

[cutthemdown]

i guess Obama is saying when the grieving is over gun control is back on the table. its going to be such a year of working together in DC, can't wait to watch them errrrr, come together.

[baja]

I am still trying to get my head around the vision of a human being murdering five year old kids one by one in cold blood. I know we are all different but this is a monster. How did he not get noticed? How can a human be that deranged and blend in with the rest society?

[extralife]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Most hardened criminals already purchase their weapons through illicit means, and while it might reduce these kinds of shootings somewhat, it won't fix gun crime in general. If anything it will simply expose many law abiding citizens to more gun violence.

and most hardened criminals don't shoot up elementary schools.

the reason your movie-fantasy "hardened criminal" is able to purchase firearms through illicit means is because there are hundreds of millions of legally made, legally purchased guns in the United States. that's the end of the story. that's the reality.

expose law abiding citizens, yeah, right. because so often you hear of victims leaving this reality to enter a movie world where they are threatened only to jump behind a trash can, pull out their piece, and take down all the bad guys. so often you hear of potential criminals backing out of a life of crime because they're like yo, man, old man winters might be packin, I'm not risking it. no, what you hear about is is old man winters leaving his drawer unlocked so little boy winters can accidentally kill himself. what you hear about are young people in poor neighborhoods taking their legally owned guns and fleeing to the streets in order to have a better shot. what you hear about are disagreements leading to tragedies because one or more of the parties in question happen to own firearms. what you hear about are prisons packed with more black people than schools are. it's not worth it, I'm sorry.

[extralife]

Originally Posted by baja

How did he not get noticed? How can a human be that deranged and blend in with the rest society?

everyone wants to ask these questions, but no one wants to know the answers

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by Arkie

Mass murderers are seeking attention. I think increased media attention has attracted more copycats.

I agree, and I think instituting a ban on showing victim interviews, suspect information, etc. would have a much greater effect on curbing mass shootings than any sort of increased gun control would.

Not saying it's what we should do, just saying if we were to do something, that would be a better option than simply banning guns.

[Cito Pelon]

The Christian God obviously has no input in this situation. No all-powerful "God" would permit such a situation. Same with that Norway thing. God's will, my ass. Allahu Akbar, my ass. Human will makes these things happen, God has nothing to do with it other than giving us free will in the first place. It's just a big game to see who comes out on top, that's the only sense I can make of it.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

Originally Posted by baja

I am still trying to get my head around the vision of a human being murdering five year old kids one by one in cold blood. I know we are all different but this is a monster. How did he not get noticed? How can a human be that deranged and blend in with the rest society?

Throughout human history, the occasional truly evil a-hole has always existed. How is a gun any different than zyklon-B, a Ryder truck full of explosives, or a hijacked commuter jet? Its a different means to the same end. Humans are capable of the most incredibly evil stuff. Always have been, always will be.

[El Minion]

Originally Posted by rugbythug

Any reason you need to be a dick?

You Jesus Evangelical Freaks bring it upon yourselves.

[gunns]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

This isn't about guns people. This is about the degrading mental health of people in the modern world. Who knows what the solution is, but getting rid of guns is trying to treat the symptom rather than the disease.

I'm reading through this thread, about religion, about gun control, and this is the first one that mentions mental illness. But I'm not thinking that we need to treat the mental illness. I think THAT is the problem. The mental health society has infiltrated our society and made us all believers. What I see in my work is that these mental health "professionals" have a very subjective job and wonder at times if some of these "diagnosis" are to keep that money rolling in. I think we have given people an excuse for their bad behavior, you are mentally ill.

[sinuous sausage]

Originally Posted by extralife

guns are not crucial to anything. you don't hunt for sustenance, you go buy your food at wal mart and then dream about hunting for sustenance. you don't protect your neighbors from black people violent sociopaths, you dream about the possibility of protecting your neighbors from violent sociopaths, so that you can then pretend you are a hero. there is no independence here. there is only fantasy. the gun represents an extension of the way you see yourself. find a new representation, because the reality of this fantasy is that people who actually do think about shooting living things in terms of reality are aided by your narcissism.

your post above is a pretty good one. where it doesn't veer into apology for a certain lifestyle, I think you are right. but if your argument is that guns deter from violent aggression, you will have to ask yourself, and genuinely believe the answer, whether or not the presence of a gun on the person of a victim or possible victim has ever saved as many lives as were just lost today, never mind all other days. we hear stories about violent people shooting up public places twice a year. have you ever heard a story about a violent person attempting to shoot up a public place, only he was stopped by your average fantasy suburbanite packing heat? and do you truly believe that the people vehemently against gun regulation are against it because they truly believe that guns are a net good? or do they just want to have a gun because guns are ****ing cool?

It's true, I harbor an especial loathing for hunting. It has more to do with subjecting myself to the elements and the fact I hate killing stuff needlessly than guns, tho. I think you inject a little too much bias into the psychology of why someone would want to own a gun. Self-preservation and an evolutionary impulse to ensure my genes propagate into the future seem the most obvious. I used to be staunchly anti-gun, ascribing similar caricatures as the one you described above to gun owners. "Who would want one? It's their little misguided fantasy," I thought. One night while visiting my aunt and uncle in North Carolina there was a break-in. I was posted up on the guest couch and about crapped my pants when I realized I wasn't alone. The dude vamoosed but after that I could totally see why someone would like to maintain a firearm. If you do a little digging, I also think you'd be surprised at the number of sane, sensible people who own one. Sometimes violent force only responds to violent force. We could take this macro and look at policies of appeasement and saber-rattling on the international scene, today and throughout history.

Would you admit that if you were to try to imagine yourself as a psychotic killer, the allure of a defenseless public arena (like a gun-free school zone) might be a prime target? I'm truly not angling for anything with a Q like that, because I really wanna know. If I wanna kill as many people as possible, my odds of surviving long enough to shed real blood would plummet if I was under the impression every person I attempted to kill was able to meet me with an equally lethal force? In fact, mass shootings might decrease as I would be outnumbered and outgunned at the outset. I imagine it very difficult, if not impossible, to prove the deterrence of these types of sadistic shenanigans
that might result from an armed society, but surely you can see the weight behind the theory? Pussies like the shooter today are drawn to weakness, even if that weakness happens to be ****ing elementary school students.