Shooting at Conn Elementary 27 dead including kids

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Some call it seperation of church and state but the result is people without the moral center we used to rely on. People are all about being politically correct and tolerant but have lost their way when it comes to god. They don't realize that without god when people hit rock bottom they have nothing. The state will not help you but god he can change your life.

You can not adhere to religion and still have a moral compass. Basic principles of morality existed long before organized religion did.

[cutthemdown]

Places like Switzerland its the law that men of a certain age have an assault rifle. Thats how they insure safety that every man can grab his gun and go fight if need me.

Sweden may be same way. Thats why the gun numbers so high. Remember though many countries with low crime also have low mixed races and not a high population. When have 250 million, compared to 10 million, there really isn't much in common. Many of the Euro countries are like an American city with all white people that have money. Sure the crime is low. Try being the USA with a melting pot of different cultures, almost 300 million people etc etc. Not saying that excuses us just saying America is not Europe.

[Swedish Extrovert]

Originally Posted by Kid A

Then why don't Western Europe (which is far more secular and stern about separating church and state) or Asia (they don't worship our God at all) have a problem with school shootings? I don't begrudge you looking for a cause, but I think it's more complicated (and less convenient) than a change in school prayer policy.

I just wanted to make one point and then I'm out....

You don't even have to look at Europe or Asia. You can just look at the US itself, and consider that the states with the higher violent crime rates tend to be the more religious ones.

[Beantown Bronco]

Homicide and general crime rates were basically the same in the 50s as they are today. If there's one thing my degrees in criminology have taught me is pretty much the only thing that's changed is the media coverage and the Internet.

[razorwire77]

Originally Posted by tesnyde

I didn't bring up other countries. It was already on the table and I was just responding. See posts 28, 35, 38, and 39. I'm trying to understand the boundaries stated in your post and projected at me but I don't. My point was this...it is a shared human problem, and in reference to your statement, regardless of quantifiable data, frequency, or other numbers, it's an international epidemic with real people that is happening in many countries. Schools world wide are facing issues about safety. Parents send their most precious possessions to people in my role and I take that very serious, as well as other educators regardless of borders. Countries' education systems are always compared and rated against each other in all areas including safety and academics but usually without all the facts. I was adding facts to help develop a better understanding.

I work with SROs and other principals everyday, I have presented at conferences with them, and we spend time studying these tragedies, particularly Columbine and Beslan, and go through table top exercises. We know this is a problem that victimizes people across bounderies, cultures, and varying degrees of gun laws. Its complex and each time is gut wrenching.

I'm also in education and hold Masters Degrees in Secondary Language Arts Curriculum and Educational Administration. I wasn't "projecting" anything at you per se (sorry if it appeared as though I was). It was meant as a general statement about the immediacy of the tragedies and how people instantly try to fit the context of the situation to their own political agendas and belief systems (again something I'm not accusing you of, but just in a general sense.) I agree that it's a "shared human problem," but there are a number of variables that make this problem much more prevalent in this country than others. I'm so upset/angry about this particular shooting (as I'm sure everyone here is) that I don't want to engage in a discussion about the social complexities or get into a debate, because at this point I think it minimizes the immediate tragedy itself.

Thank you for your service as an educator. Today was tough one.

[Swedish Extrovert]

"We were better off in the 50's" Said no woman, Asian, Hispanic, Jew, physically/mentally disabled, single parent, or gay person, ever.....

[cutthemdown]

Originally Posted by Kid A

Then why don't Western Europe (which is far more secular and stern about separating church and state) or Asia (they don't worship our God at all) have a problem with school shootings? I don't begrudge you looking for a cause, but I think it's more complicated (and less convenient) than a change in school prayer policy.

I think our country has more of a religious history, more built on the principals of that religion. Then also I believe in the EU they aren't the melting pot as much as we are. It's not easy mixing together all these different cultures, different religions, different socio economic conditions into a smooth running country.

Look at France they are starting to have a lot of problems. Mostly because as the immigrant population grows and economy is stagnant you get problems.

Obviously it takes more the school prayer. But you can't argue as America gets less religious we are also getting more violent. A lot of those European countries people hold up for example dont let immigrants in unless they have money. Hard to compare then to us. How about we stick to comapring countries with at least 150 million people. Way more logical IMO.

[Swedish Extrovert]

Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco

Homicide and general crime rates were basically the same in the 50s as they are today. If there's one thing my degrees in criminology have taught me is pretty much the only thing that's changed is the media coverage and the Internet.

Yup.

[Swedish Extrovert]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

I think our country has more of a religious history, more built on the principals of that religion. Then also I believe in the EU they aren't the melting pot as much as we are. It's not easy mixing together all these different cultures, different religions, different socio economic conditions into a smooth running country.

Look at France they are starting to have a lot of problems. Mostly because as the immigrant population grows and economy is stagnant you get problems.

Obviously it takes more the school prayer. But you can't argue as America gets less religious we are also getting more violent. A lot of those European countries people hold up for example dont let immigrants in unless they have money. Hard to compare then to us. How about we stick to comapring countries with at least 150 million people. Way more logical IMO.

Northern Europe has the largest refugee diaspora in the world... next theory...

[mkporter]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

In our country, our main religions don't teach that and we were better off back in the 50's when we were all Christians. But now we teach kids Christianity dumb, hey kid would you believe in a spaghetti monster you can't see.

then people are surprised when kids turn into evil little things and shoot up a school.

Nor should they, because if you weren't white, straight, christian and male, it isn't true.

[cutthemdown]

Originally Posted by Requiem

You can not adhere to religion and still have a moral compass. Basic principles of morality existed long before organized religion did.

Do you think school violence was less when prayer was done in school or has it gone up without it?

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Do you think school violence was less when prayer was done in school or has it gone up without it?

You can pray silently in school all you want. People did it all the time, people still do. Stating that there is a rise in violence in our school system due to a lack of prayer is a disingenuous argument and you know it.

[razorwire77]

Originally Posted by Mightysmurf

"We were better off in the 50's" Said no woman, Asian, Hispanic, Jew, physically/mentally disabled, single parent, or gay person, ever.....

As we age, many people always seem pine for an imaginary "Golden Era" even though each generation makes the same mistakes as the next. They also want to portray each younger generation as being "lost."

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Do you think school violence was less when prayer was done in school or has it gone up without it?

Its silly to think thats the correlation

[tesnyde]

Originally Posted by Kid A

Then why don't Western Europe (which is far more secular and stern about separating church and state) or Asia (they don't worship our God at all) have a problem with school shootings? I don't begrudge you looking for a cause, but I think it's more complicated (and less convenient) than a change in school prayer policy.

I'm a Christian and high school principal. On a personal level, I believe teaching family values would be a plus, however, the leading indicator for a student to be a success academically, socially and healthy is a complete family ; mommy and daddy still together and involved in their kids lives. If you want to take it a step further, entact families who actually have sit down dinners with each other have the highest rate of successful and well adjusted kids. So guys and gals stay together and have dinner together if you really want to provide the best statistical chance for your kids to be successful academically, socially, and healthy. The leading indicator for collegiate success is the formation/joining of a study group. College kids who join a study group have the highest statistical chance of graduating.

[Br0nc0Buster]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

I think our country has more of a religious history, more built on the principals of that religion. Then also I believe in the EU they aren't the melting pot as much as we are. It's not easy mixing together all these different cultures, different religions, different socio economic conditions into a smooth running country.

Look at France they are starting to have a lot of problems. Mostly because as the immigrant population grows and economy is stagnant you get problems.

Obviously it takes more the school prayer. But you can't argue as America gets less religious we are also getting more violent. A lot of those European countries people hold up for example dont let immigrants in unless they have money. Hard to compare then to us. How about we stick to comapring countries with at least 150 million people. Way more logical IMO.

I am sorry but almost every study done regarding violance and religious beliefs have proven that to be false

If anything there tends to be a positive correlation of violence within a population and religious belief

[orangeatheist]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

We need to get prayer and God back into our schools. The kids lack a moral compass and the teachings of Jesus Christ about our lord would help. We had guns back in the 50's and this studd didn't happen. The only real difference in schools since then is lack of religion. How many private religious schools have had these sorts of problems? I think i remember a couple but for sure not as many. By teaching kids about the love of Jesus Christ you can give them faith and hope. Something which we lack more and more of each decade.

I have two kids. And you're an idiot of the highest caliber.

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by Requiem

You can not adhere to religion and still have a moral compass. Basic principles of morality existed long before organized religion did.

Exactly.

A cave man could rationalize that killing a member of his tribe would leave less people to hunt for food.

Morality is not dependent upon religion or belief in God. Never has been, never will be. In fact, what some would describe as "morality", others would call "pragmatism". Depending on what you believe, "morality" is either endowed to you by a magical being no one can see, or by hundreds of thousands of years of natural selection.

[broncocalijohn]

Originally Posted by Mightysmurf

I just wanted to make one point and then I'm out....

You don't even have to look at Europe or Asia. You can just look at the US itself, and consider that the states with the higher violent crime rates tend to be the more religious ones.

http://www.pewforum.org/how-religiou...ur-state-.aspx
http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s0308.pdf
http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank21.html

Here are the top religious states and their violent crime per 100k residents

1) Mississippi 306.7
2) Alabama 459.9
3) Arkansas 530.3
4) Lousiana 628.4 (New Orleans of course-maybe diff since Katrina)
5) Tennessee 666 (that is a fitting number)
6) South Carolina 675.10
42)Conneticut 300.5
43) Maine 119.9
44) Massachusetts 465.6
45) Alaska 632.6
46) Vermont/NH 135.1

Some states were added together.

Besides the crazyness of Alaska, many of the safest states are much different then the ones that are religious. Maine, Vermont, Conn and New Hampshire do not have many urban areas.

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Do you think school violence was less when prayer was done in school or has it gone up without it?

Right. Because they're totally related.

cutthemdown has the answer to every problem: praying to skygod.

[tesnyde]

[QUOTE=Mightysmurf;3753226]I just wanted to make one point and then I'm out....

You don't even have to look at Europe or Asia. You can just look at the US itself, and consider that the states with the higher violent crime rates tend to be the more religious ones.[/

Cities with highest violent crime rates:
1 Detroit
2 St. Louis
3 0akland (figures)
4 Memphis
5 Birmingham
6 Atlanta
7 Baltimore
8 Stockton
9 Cleveland
10 Buffalo

Not exactly a list of cities exclusive to the Bible Belt states.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfi...gerous-cities/

[Chris]

The fact that there can't be a legitimate national discussion on gun control because the NRA has some hot shot lawyers is offensive, disrespectful to all the victims of gun violence and a real stain on this country.

[55CrushEm]

Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco

Homicide and general crime rates were basically the same in the 50s as they are today. If there's one thing my degrees in criminology have taught me is pretty much the only thing that's changed is the media coverage and the Internet.

Winner, winner. Chicken dinner.

[broncocalijohn]

Originally Posted by Chris

The fact that their can't be a legitimate national discussion on gun control because the NRA has some hot shot lawyers is offensive, disrespectful to all the victims of gun violence and a real stain on this country.

how many more gun laws do you want? As we take guns out of law abiding hands, it is free reign for the criminals. Let me know when a criminal is going to listen to a gun law and therefore, no longer be that criminal?

[baja]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Society went godless. We fix it by getting religion back into schools.

Sadly it is not that simple.

So many strong forces moving this, violence on TV, video games, movies, broken families and yes moral teaching. Availability of weapons. All contribute. Even the way the story is being covered contributes. The worst part is this seems to be occurring with more and more frequency. Unfortunately this will result in more fear based legislation rather than looking closely at the root problems and correcting them. Sad day for us all. God help us.