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Old 12-07-2012, 07:51 AM   #1
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I'm not going to go into the stats. They speak for themselves. When Kuper is off the field, we Manning takes more sacks and more hits. When he's on the field our rushing average is better and Manning is better protected. I haven't heard what happened with his ankle, but I assume it is post game swelling that hadn't gone down enough and they wanted to rest him for Baltimore. Hopefully it wasn't re-injured.

Regardless, without Kuper our team is worse. With him, our team is better. We need our best offensive lineman on the field.

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Old 12-07-2012, 07:52 AM   #2
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nice game from Handy Manny last night

ole!

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Old 12-07-2012, 07:54 AM   #3
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:56 AM   #4
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nice game from Handy Manny last night

ole!

Clady got his ass kicked too. He's been below average the past two games. And this was against one of the worst sack teams in the NFL. Good for contract talks, I guess.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:04 AM   #5
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I was at game so and from my seat it was hard to see specifics but it looked like whole OL got worked over in run and pass. 2 of sacks seemed like blown assignments and let a player come free. Run game seemed like a loss of yards and whole OL collapsed or Moreno made a good run. There were also holes that the rbs missed too at times.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:07 AM   #6
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I'm not going to go into the stats. They speak for themselves. When Kuper is off the field, we Manning takes more sacks and more hits. When he's on the field our rushing average is better and Manning is better protected. I haven't heard what happened with his ankle, but I assume it is post game swelling that hadn't gone down enough and they wanted to rest him for Baltimore. Hopefully it wasn't re-injured.

Regardless, without Kuper our team is worse. With him, our team is better. We need our best offensive lineman on the field.

I agree that your observation is painfully obvious but you can say this about any top player, Champ, Manning etc. I too hope this isn't an indication of a nagging situation that will make his availability iffy into the playoffs. However, I like to look at the positive side of a bad situation. Other people get real time reps. Ramirez, Clark etc. One interesting item of note is the number of ex-Bronco OL still playing/starting for other teams. Myers, Lichtenstieger (sp) and Carlisle. I think I may have missed one.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:08 AM   #7
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We also need better depth on the O line
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:11 AM   #8
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I agree that your observation is painfully obvious but you can say this about any top player, Champ, Manning etc.
Pretty much. Every time D Thomas goes out, I know it's only a matter of time before Wills effs up something. He looks very good for a backup for like 5 plays, but then that 6th play, the defense gives them a wrinkle, Peyton reads it and Willis doesn't and it either results in a pick or a near pick. Manning seems to have perfect chemistry with the other three primary WRs, but it's definitely not the same with Willis.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:12 AM   #9
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That last sack didn't seem like a blocking problem. They knew that blitzer was coming and Manning had checked to a hot route with the protection designed to just let the blitzer come. Either the Raiders covered that hot route up or someone didn't do something right and Manning just ate it. He was having a pretty deep discussion with one of the receivers after the play.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:13 AM   #10
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I agree that your observation is painfully obvious but you can say this about any top player, Champ, Manning etc. I too hope this isn't an indication of a nagging situation that will make his availability iffy into the playoffs. However, I like to look at the positive side of a bad situation. Other people get real time reps. Ramirez, Clark etc. One interesting item of note is the number of ex-Bronco OL still playing/starting for other teams. Myers, Lichtenstieger (sp) and Carlisle. I think I may have missed one.
Ryan Harris also.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:19 AM   #11
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Pretty much. Every time D Thomas goes out, I know it's only a matter of time before Wills effs up something. He looks very good for a backup for like 5 plays, but then that 6th play, the defense gives them a wrinkle, Peyton reads it and Willis doesn't and it either results in a pick or a near pick. Manning seems to have perfect chemistry with the other three primary WRs, but it's definitely not the same with Willis.
Thomas is the most important player on the offense after Manning. He is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of pure ability, the way he has gotten on the same page with Manning is just scary. Yesterday he ran a couple of hot route quick slants, easily caught the ball both times against heavy blitzes. Then he goes out injured, the same situation comes up and Willis is supposed to run the quick slant, but somehow doesn't see that 7 people are going after Manning and he keeps running his corner route leading to a sack.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:13 AM   #12
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I know Willis plays ST, but when I see him play I am left wondering why Caldwell can't beat this guy out, especially when Stokely was injured the week before.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:15 AM   #13
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Ramirez lets people push him back... I heard on the radio that he has a back issue. I hope Kuper is healed before the playoffs start, so he can get in some game shape.

Our OL definitely has trouble with defensive lineman crossing their face and blowing up the run game. They are waiting for the lineman to engage them on running plays and when they don't they whiff on the block resulting in a negative play.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:23 AM   #14
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Clady got his ass kicked too. He's been below average the past two games. And this was against one of the worst sack teams in the NFL. Good for contract talks, I guess.
meh...it seems things have been a mess in since Magahee went out and kuper came back too early. I thought Koppen had a tough game last week.

Manning can't seem to get Knowshow in the right spot and lately he sacks himself at least once a game. Hopefully Kupe took the night off to get some rest for the stretch run.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:33 AM   #15
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8. I'm not saying there's a correlation here, but have you noticed that when Manny Ramirez is in the lineup, it seems like the Broncos give up more pressures and sacks? With Chris Kuper starting, Manning has been sacked four times in six games. With Manny? 15 times in seven games. Of course, Zane Beadles and Dan Koppen deserve their share of the blame, too.

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Old 12-07-2012, 09:36 AM   #16
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8. I'm not saying there's a correlation here, but have you noticed that when Manny Ramirez is in the lineup, it seems like the Broncos give up more pressures and sacks? With Chris Kuper starting, Manning has been sacked four times in six games. With Manny? 15 times in seven games. Of course, Zane Beadles and Dan Koppen deserve their share of the blame, too.

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You could have argued better pass rushers in those games (JJ Watt, for Example) but last night's game blew up that theory because we faced one of the worst teams at sacking the QB and gave up 3.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:39 AM   #17
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Kuper is probably the most underrated Bronco starter on offense. Actually Zane Beadles has really developed nicely this year too. There were at least two instances where Manny Ramirez literally failed to block anybody. I don't mean tried and whiffed, I don't mean he got ragdolled, he literally didn't even attempt to engage a defensive player. We need Kupe back next week, even if its at 80 percent.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:46 AM   #18
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You could have argued better pass rushers in those games (JJ Watt, for Example) but last night's game blew up that theory because we faced one of the worst teams at sacking the QB and gave up 3.
a slippery field is a good equalizer.

I think everyone on this thread has done a nice job of pointing out several factors. Bottom line, the offense is much better with Kuper in the lineup.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:47 AM   #19
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Pretty much. Every time D Thomas goes out, I know it's only a matter of time before Wills effs up something. He looks very good for a backup for like 5 plays, but then that 6th play, the defense gives them a wrinkle, Peyton reads it and Willis doesn't and it either results in a pick or a near pick. Manning seems to have perfect chemistry with the other three primary WRs, but it's definitely not the same with Willis.
Yeah, Willis sucks. The offense was definitely not the same when Thomas went out. It doesn't look like Stokely is 100%, either. Him making plays in the slot would've helped tremendously. Fortunately, we were only playing the Oakland Raiders.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:56 AM   #20
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I am completely over Matthew Willis. Caldwell is bigger, faster.... I understand the special teams aspect but I swear every single game Willis has had a more active role in, he blows 2-3 plays BADLY.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:58 AM   #21
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I think it was Fox that said, Kuper had some scar tissue broken up in his ankle and was still sore from it, and they just wanted to give him a little extra time to get better. Ramirez apparently does stuggle with back issues, if its that bad I wonder how Chris Clark would be at guard, could he be any worse? Anyways sounds like we'll see Kuper back in there next game.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:00 AM   #22
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Yeah, Willis sucks. The offense was definitely not the same when Thomas went out. It doesn't look like Stokely is 100%, either. Him making plays in the slot would've helped tremendously. Fortunately, we were only playing the Oakland Raiders.
That play was not on Willis. Even if Peyton didn't underthrow it and was leading him in on a curl the db had better position to make that int.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:05 AM   #23
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I agree that your observation is painfully obvious but you can say this about any top player, Champ, Manning etc. I too hope this isn't an indication of a nagging situation that will make his availability iffy into the playoffs. However, I like to look at the positive side of a bad situation. Other people get real time reps. Ramirez, Clark etc. One interesting item of note is the number of ex-Bronco OL still playing/starting for other teams. Myers, Lichtenstieger (sp) and Carlisle. I think I may have missed one.
+ Polumbus and Ryan Harris

Btw, Clark gets his extra reps in jumbo packages playing a massive inline blocking TE, so Kuper's injury hasn't done anything to increase his snaps.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:11 AM   #24
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I am completely over Matthew Willis. Caldwell is bigger, faster.... I understand the special teams aspect but I swear every single game Willis has had a more active role in, he blows 2-3 plays BADLY.
He is a can of suck. I had high hopes for him at one time. He has 4.4 speed, seems to run decent routes (at least in preseason), but he always seems to have one thoroughly irritating screw up, despite only getting very limited playing time.

I definitely wouldn't mind seeing Denver draft a number 2 receiver, move Decker to the slot and be done with Willis. What does it say about Caldwell that he can't get on the field over a Willis?
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:12 AM   #25
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Kuper is definitely a major upgrade over Ramirez. I think Elway is going to draft a guard in the first 3 rounds either way. Our offensive line is weak (other than the tackles). They get blown off and most of the pressure comes from the inside. Wouldn't mind a reciever or a tight end in the first 3 rounds as well. Need a couple more explosive skilled players in my opinion as our offense lacks that.
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