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Old 11-29-2012, 06:47 AM   #176
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Too bad Marshall's teammate is better.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:01 AM   #177
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Too bad Marshall's teammate is better.
Who, Grice? He's more of a situational guy. Good athlete, but won't run as well in a traditional offense I don't think. He's more Felix Jones IMO.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:19 AM   #178
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Q: I would like you to go into more detail on (Broncos running back Knowshon) Moreno in light of his production in the Chiefs game. Peyton Manning seems comfortable with him, he catches everything thrown in his direction and he even pointed out some defensive alignments from his running back position. Is it surprising the coaches used him extensively and were rewarded given his inactivity for the last six weeks?

A: Andy, it was pretty clear in the days leading up to the Chiefs game Moreno was going to be a big part of the game plan. And as things rolled on through Friday and Saturday, the rumblings were he would start the game.
Essentially, the Broncos moved him from being a gameday inactive for eight games into the starting lineup because they felt Moreno offered them the best size-speed combination with Willis McGahee on injured reserve to go with the things they needed in the passing game.
Broncos coach John Fox wants a bigger back in the lead role if possible. And when McGahee was injured, that left Moreno as the most physical runner available on the roster. And while Moreno took part in training camp, the preseason and the early part of the regular season after surgery to repair his ACL last December, Fox said this week Moreno is really just nearing 100 percent on the leg now.
It often takes at least a calendar year, sometimes even into the second calendar year, before a player feels as if he has regained his explosiveness in the repaired knee and more importantly the confidence to run on the repaired leg the way they did before the injury.
Or as John Fox put it:
"It does take time until you're 100 percent. You're cleared to play but you're not as exact as you probably think you should be. He needed some time and he had a great attitude, great mindset throughout that period of time and just by the nature of this league and injuries are part of the game, we knew we needed him and he went about it right so that's why he looked so good."
He was not running with confidence early in the season, was impatient at times with the ball and too hesitant at others. A fumble against the Falcons certainly didn't help his cause. He had just three carries in the game . And he was then a gameday inactive for eight consecutive games.

The time away seems, at least for one game, to have helped. He looked physically stronger against the Chiefs and ran with the most patience, setting up blocks effectively, that he's shown in his time with the Broncos. One of his biggest challenges moving forward will be to consistently show that patience and vision, because he has routinely run himself out of plays by ill-timed cuts.
When the Broncos moved him up to starter this past week, it was a combination of his improving health, their desire for some size in the backfield and, perhaps most importantly, Moreno's work in pass protection.





Read more: Knowshon Moreno's pass protection a big part of his move into offense - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...#ixzz2Dcp16dqd
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

Last edited by baja; 11-29-2012 at 07:21 AM..
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:25 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2KBack View Post
Games missed due to injury in the first 2 years as Broncos:
Moreno: 3
Mcgahee: 7

TD per touch ratio:
Moreno: TD every 30.2 touches
Mcgahee: TD every 60.5 touches

As pass catchers only:
Moreno: a TD per 13.5 catches
McGahee: a TD per 40.4 catches

I like Willis, and he is a tough runner, but there are no numbers to back up him being "Vastly superior" when it comes to production for the broncos. All it is is bias.
As tough as I was on Moreno's running, I WAS impressed with his pass catching ability. More than likely, he found himself in open space. I have nothing but praise, for that aspect of Moreno's game...
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:33 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by 2KBack View Post
Games missed due to injury in the first 2 years as Broncos:
Moreno: 3
Mcgahee: 7

TD per touch ratio:
Moreno: TD every 30.2 touches
Mcgahee: TD every 60.5 touches

As pass catchers only:
Moreno: a TD per 13.5 catches
McGahee: a TD per 40.4 catches

I like Willis, and he is a tough runner, but there are no numbers to back up him being "Vastly superior" when it comes to production for the broncos. All it is is bias.
Sometimes you do not rate players on TDs. How about going and looking at the stats for ypc, 3rd and short yard conversion.

While you may be enamoured with Moreno the coaches have not been. That frankly is all that counts.

There was a reason for him being inactive all year.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:17 AM   #181
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Sometimes you do not rate players on TDs. How about going and looking at the stats for ypc, 3rd and short yard conversion.

While you may be enamoured with Moreno the coaches have not been. That frankly is all that counts.

There was a reason for him being inactive all year.
I don't have the 3rd down numbers....But Willis and Knowshown both have career 4.2 YPA....rushing the ball that is. Receiving Moreno kills at 8.9 yards per reception to Mcgahees 6.5
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:32 AM   #182
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Moreno was inactive but was still obviously the #2 fulltime back. To say he was 4th string is retarded after he just started and got all but 4 carries after Willis goes to IR. I would guess Hester will fill that role now of being inactive unless Moreno gets injured.

Hillman is our situational back and Ball is a STer which is the reason they were active. They were not ahead of Moreno on the real depth chart. I would think any idiot could deduce that.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:50 AM   #183
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Moreno was inactive but was still obviously the #2 fulltime back. To say he was 4th string is retarded after he just started and got all but 4 carries after Willis goes to IR. I would guess Hester will fill that role now of being inactive unless Moreno gets injured.

Hillman is our situational back and Ball is a STer which is the reason they were active. They were not ahead of Moreno on the real depth chart. I would think any idiot could deduce that.
Not to mention he is 8 or 9 months removed from a serious knee injury that often takes a year of more to come back 100% from and Fox stated he wanted to give him time to heal.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:34 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by 2KBack View Post
I don't have the 3rd down numbers....But Willis and Knowshown both have career 4.2 YPA....rushing the ball that is. Receiving Moreno kills at 8.9 yards per reception to Mcgahees 6.5
the passing difference issue could be caused by down and distance, how close you are to the goal..

I will still take the big guy over Moreno and I have never had a problem with him from day one..

I just like bigger backs, as they tend to be more durable IMO.. Frankly I do not care about take it to teh house aspects of the game..

Unless you are talking about TD, Steven Jackson it is worth talking about.. it happens so seldom it is a none issue for me..
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:55 PM   #185
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Not to mention he is 8 or 9 months removed from a serious knee injury that often takes a year of more to come back 100% from and Fox stated he wanted to give him time to heal.
I think he is just past a year with the knee. Wasn't it the Kansas City game last november? Either way, its the whole point with him people somehow forget. dude blew out his knee.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:56 PM   #186
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the passing difference issue could be caused by down and distance, how close you are to the goal..

I will still take the big guy over Moreno and I have never had a problem with him from day one..

I just like bigger backs, as they tend to be more durable IMO.. Frankly I do not care about take it to teh house aspects of the game..

Unless you are talking about TD, Steven Jackson it is worth talking about.. it happens so seldom it is a none issue for me..
This isn't a question of who would you rather have....we have them both. The point I am trying to get across is that Moreno can be/and by most measures has been productive. It is fine to prefer one to another, but it is simply disingenuous to say one sucks and the other doesn't, because the numbers just don't reflect that.

I have been a vocal supporter of Moreno, but you can see that I am also in support of drafting another horse....and he is a bigger back.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:17 PM   #187
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I think he is just past a year with the knee. Wasn't it the Kansas City game last november? Either way, its the whole point with him people somehow forget. dude blew out his knee.
Yeah, dude was wearing a knee brace in preseason. How often do you see a RB wearing a knee brace? He obviously wasn't ready physically, they probably tried to bring him back too soon. And being the knucklehead he is (and he IS a knucklehead) he probably wanted to come back too soon also.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:23 PM   #188
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If he can be about 60% the player Edgerin James was, we're in for nice run..
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:28 PM   #189
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This isn't a question of who would you rather have....we have them both. The point I am trying to get across is that Moreno can be/and by most measures has been productive. It is fine to prefer one to another, but it is simply disingenuous to say one sucks and the other doesn't, because the numbers just don't reflect that.

I have been a vocal supporter of Moreno, but you can see that I am also in support of drafting another horse....and he is a bigger back.
Well, some folks call those fake stats or some such silly garbage. Same as some folks claim this is last chance in the NFL, which is just as silly. If Denver is dumb enough to cut him loose, he'll be snatched up fast. Probably by Shanahan.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:52 PM   #190
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I don't have the 3rd down numbers
I do.....

Moreno for his Broncos career on 3rd down has 32 carries for 142 yards 4.4 avg.

McGahee for his Broncos career on 3rd down has 32 carries for 84 yards 2.6 avg.

But before you start saying I'm cherry picking stats.....for his entire career McGahee has 158 3rd down carries for 2.8 avg. Of course Moreno hasn't played for anyone else but the Broncos....

Last edited by errand; 11-29-2012 at 05:54 PM..
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:58 PM   #191
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I do.....

Moreno for his Broncos career on 3rd down has 32 carries for 142 yards 4.4 avg.

McGahee for his Broncos career on 3rd down has 32 carries for 84 yards 2.6 avg.

But before you start saying I'm cherry picking stats.....for his entire career McGahee has 158 3rd down carries for 2.8 avg. Of course Moreno hasn't played for anyone else but the Broncos....
I have been a vocal supporter of Moreno since he was drafted, but I was unaware he was so efficient on 3rd down, those are impressive numbers. Do you happen to know his 3rd down recieving stats? And whether he converted those runs/receptions into 1st downs?
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:10 PM   #192
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I have been a vocal supporter of Moreno since he was drafted, but I was unaware he was so efficient on 3rd down, those are impressive numbers. Do you happen to know his 3rd down recieving stats? And whether he converted those runs/receptions into 1st downs?
He has a career 12 receptions for 69 yards 5.8 avg. on 3rd down......

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits...nowshon-moreno

all you have to do is go up to the year and scroll up to see each individual season....page posted is rookie season 2009.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:28 PM   #193
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I was responding to the statement that Moreno has only played well against the Chiefs. That statement is flat out wrong and cannot be defended. Sorry.
Moreno has only had two one-hundred yard games in 2.5+ seasons of starting games. Both were against Kansas City. You're right, he has had other good games, but when it comes to running the football the KC games are the only ones I can think of where he looked like a running back taken at #12.


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Originally Posted by 2KBack View Post
Games missed due to injury in the first 2 years as Broncos:
Moreno: 3
Mcgahee: 7
Wow, cool stats. Let's start with this one. Well, I'd hate to point out the obvious difference here, but well, here we go: McGahee was over 30 when he got to Denver. And, you arguing via statistics, naturally limited the years there so as to avoid showing Moreno's lost season. Regardless, you know exactly what I meant: Moreno took himself out of games. This is arguably the biggest reason he couldn't cut it and why he got demoted. He would get the rock, two-three times, limp off the field for a couple plays, and then come back on. Also, these stats are completely wrong.


Quote:
TD per touch ratio:
Moreno: TD every 30.2 touches
Mcgahee: TD every 60.5 touches

As pass catchers only:
Moreno: a TD per 13.5 catches
McGahee: a TD per 40.4 catches

I like Willis, and he is a tough runner, but there are no numbers to back up him being "Vastly superior" when it comes to production for the broncos. All it is is bias.
No it ain't. Do not even begin to pretend that Moreno is anywhere near McGahee's level. This kind of blind apologism is ridiculous. Knowshon Moreno was benched and replaced by the youngest player in the entire NFL for a reason, and you wanna act like these two players are even close in production, talent, and everything else? Seriously? McGahee is a workhorse back who gets a lot of touches. Moreno's a scatback who takes five whenever he can. Huge difference.

If stats were everything Moreno would not have been benched (not just this year, but the past years, too). So cling to those stats all you want, but they don't represent reality. The coaches, and really anybody who actually watched the games, saw what was on the field and judged accordingly.

Last edited by NUB; 11-29-2012 at 10:34 PM..
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:18 PM   #194
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I like Moreno quite a bit, but he never seems to stay healthy long enough to cheer for the guy. If he stays healthy, I think he'll be just fine.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:29 PM   #195
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This isn't a question of who would you rather have....we have them both. The point I am trying to get across is that Moreno can be/and by most measures has been productive. It is fine to prefer one to another, but it is simply disingenuous to say one sucks and the other doesn't, because the numbers just don't reflect that.

I have been a vocal supporter of Moreno, but you can see that I am also in support of drafting another horse....and he is a bigger back.
I doubt you will ever find a post of mine that says Moreno sucks. Overall I think he is a good RB, I just like bigger guys to handle the load. Every time we have had one Ma,MB and now WM. he have the ability to score inside the five. Have the ability to get a 3rd and short.

As for right now having both. Thru this year yes but km large cap number tells me he will not be here next year unless he kills it the next 6 games.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:46 PM   #196
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Moreno has only had two one-hundred yard games in 2.5+ seasons of starting games. Both were against Kansas City. You're right, he has had other good games, but when it comes to running the football the KC games are the only ones I can think of where he looked like a running back taken at #12.




Wow, cool stats. Let's start with this one. Well, I'd hate to point out the obvious difference here, but well, here we go: McGahee was over 30 when he got to Denver. And, you arguing via statistics, naturally limited the years there so as to avoid showing Moreno's lost season. Regardless, you know exactly what I meant: Moreno took himself out of games. This is arguably the biggest reason he couldn't cut it and why he got demoted. He would get the rock, two-three times, limp off the field for a couple plays, and then come back on. Also, these stats are completely wrong.




No it ain't. Do not even begin to pretend that Moreno is anywhere near McGahee's level. This kind of blind apologism is ridiculous. Knowshon Moreno was benched and replaced by the youngest player in the entire NFL for a reason, and you wanna act like these two players are even close in production, talent, and everything else? Seriously? McGahee is a workhorse back who gets a lot of touches. Moreno's a scatback who takes five whenever he can. Huge difference.

If stats were everything Moreno would not have been benched (not just this year, but the past years, too). So cling to those stats all you want, but they don't represent reality. The coaches, and really anybody who actually watched the games, saw what was on the field and judged accordingly.
Please stop.

I understand your point of view, and it has merit, but the way you are presenting it is not productive. You seem to try to exaggerate to make a point, and that style of debate has never come off as mature, nor does it ever covert anyone to your viewpoint. Which is what the whole point of debating is, right?
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:22 AM   #197
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I doubt you will ever find a post of mine that says Moreno sucks. Overall I think he is a good RB, I just like bigger guys to handle the load. Every time we have had one Ma,MB and now WM. he have the ability to score inside the five. Have the ability to get a 3rd and short.

As for right now having both. Thru this year yes but km large cap number tells me he will not be here next year unless he kills it the next 6 games.
Moreno is now a bigger back though. He's up to about 218, easily the heaviest he's been as a Bronco.

It'll be interesting to see how he plays now with the added weight. If he hasn't lost any speed and retained most of his lateral mobility he could do very well with the added muscle.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:13 AM   #198
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Wow, cool stats. Let's start with this one. Well, I'd hate to point out the obvious difference here, but well, here we go: McGahee was over 30 when he got to Denver. And, you arguing via statistics, naturally limited the years there so as to avoid showing Moreno's lost season. Regardless, you know exactly what I meant: Moreno took himself out of games. This is arguably the biggest reason he couldn't cut it and why he got demoted. He would get the rock, two-three times, limp off the field for a couple plays, and then come back on. Also, these stats are completely wrong.

No it ain't. Do not even begin to pretend that Moreno is anywhere near McGahee's level. This kind of blind apologism is ridiculous. Knowshon Moreno was benched and replaced by the youngest player in the entire NFL for a reason, and you wanna act like these two players are even close in production, talent, and everything else? Seriously? McGahee is a workhorse back who gets a lot of touches. Moreno's a scatback who takes five whenever he can. Huge difference.

If stats were everything Moreno would not have been benched (not just this year, but the past years, too). So cling to those stats all you want, but they don't represent reality. The coaches, and really anybody who actually watched the games, saw what was on the field and judged accordingly.
Sorry, Stats are the only quantifiable way to measure players....it is the only way to come close to taking personal bias out of the equation. Since you are refusing to look at the evidence, it is up to me to point out numbers. I don't do it to being WM down, I do it to bring a little reality to the Moreno bashing.

Since age is now the stat you wish to use, we can always go that route.

Moreno's first 2 seasons:
275 touches 4.2 yards per touch 1160 total yards
219 touches 5.3 yards per touch 1151 total yards

McGahee's first 2 seasons:
306 touches 4.2 YPT 1297 total yards
353 touches 4 YPT 1425 Total yards

Mcgahee has an edge in total yards (and 1 more TD over those 2 seasons). Note that he also had more opportunities. Keeping their effectiveness per touch and reversing how many times they were given opportunities it looks like this:

Moreno:
1285 total yards
1871 total yards

MCGahee:
1160 total yards
876 total yards

So statistically the players were equally as effective on a per play basis as rookies, but Moreno was actually far more productive per touch in their second years. This of course doesn't take total team differences, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a team in worse shape from a coaching perspective than Denver in Moreno's first two seasons (Buff may be close though).

So at the same age....the players were comparable. Yet I keep seeing that Moreno is an ineffective ballerina, or no-show, or slowshon. You wanna be concerned with his completely exaggerated injury history? Well I'm not going to count how often Moreno gets up slowly in a game, but I'm confident it's not much more than most RB's. The facts remain, when Moreno gets the ball, he has been every bit as productive.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:33 AM   #199
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Anxiously awaiting the next "moving of the goalposts" by NUB.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:40 AM   #200
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Moreno is now a bigger back though. He's up to about 218, easily the heaviest he's been as a Bronco.

It'll be interesting to see how he plays now with the added weight. If he hasn't lost any speed and retained most of his lateral mobility he could do very well with the added muscle.
Interesting. Hopefully the added weight will help him stay healthy. The only beef i've had with him are his health and fumbling issues.
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