AFC West: Denver Broncos' success have rest of division scrambling

[Kaylore]

Originally Posted by OrangeSe7en

Seeing what has become of Cassel, really puts into perspective what a clownshow that McDaniels was.

If McDaniels had been successful in acquiring that turd, the Broncos probably wouldn't have Manning now and Denver would be in the same position as the Chiefs.

We picked second overall. We were thar bad. Remember that Raider loss?

[BroncoMan4ever]

Originally Posted by Hamrob

Luck, RG III, and Freeman have the upside of being great. The guys that I listed on the fringe...are very good QB's, but not great.....they are not going to win Super Bowls for their teams. If they get a ring....it will be because of the rest of the team. Go ahead and try to make an argument that Schaub is a franchise QB....good luck! Take a way Johson, and Foster.........DONE. Plug PM in with any of the AFC West teams and they would be a playoff team. Luck has the potential....these others guys have already shown who they are.

They have the POTENTIAL to be great, they aren't great now. Take Wayne away from Luck and he looks like Blaine Gabbert. Take Jackson from Freeman and he looks like the QB that people weren't sute he could be a franchise guy.

Potential is a funny thing. Quinn, Russell, Akili, Harrington, Carr are all guys who had potential but for whatever reason flamed out. Now I'm not saying that Luck, RGIII, and Freeman will go that way, but it is still to soon to put them ahead of a guy like Schaub or Flacco that have won games and played more than half a season.

[baja]

Originally Posted by BroncoMan4ever

They have the POTENTIAL to be great, they aren't great now. Take Wayne away from Luck and he looks like Blaine Gabbert. Take Jackson from Freeman and he looks like the QB that people weren't sute he could be a franchise guy.

Potential is a funny thing. Quinn, Russell, Akili, Harrington, Carr are all guys who had potential but for whatever reason flamed out. Now I'm not saying that Luck, RGIII, and Freeman will go that way, but it is still to soon to put them ahead of a guy like Schaub or Flacco that have won games and played more than half a season.

I'd say with the way RGIII is playing you got to put him at the bottom of the top list.

[Boltjolt]

Originally Posted by Hamrob

I think all of these so called analysts are no more experts than we are. I love that they are now chuckling about the Chiefs and saying that they lack the depth to compete. Same crap they were saying about the Broncos.

You know what the differnce is? Peyton Manning. Sure we have some great talent: Von, Doom, Champ, Thomas etc. But, the Chiefs have some great players too.

To me, the bottom line is this: You have to have a top-10 QB to compete in this league. Teams that do....make the playoffs....teams that don't draft high until they find one. How's that for analysis? Pretty easy stuff!

In my opinion....the Chiefs should have kept Orton....and drafted a young guy in last years draft. That would have been thier best shot. Orton is better than both Cassel and Quinn...and could have been servicable with the talent they do have on that football team.

And for Rivers, and Palmer...those guys are not top-10 caliber guys....not right now anyway...and it's not because of the talent around them. Both guys have plenty of play makers in my opinion.

My top 10:

Manning
Brady
Rogers
Brees
Ryan
Roethlesberger
Manning
RG III
Luck
Freeman

On the fringe:
Flaco, Schaub, Romo, Cutler, Newton, Stafford, Rivers

**The Ravens and Texans are the only teams that contradict my opnion. I believe both Flaco and Schaub are above average, but not special. Each of the guys I have on the Fringe could move up depending on more experience or fewer mistakes...but, I think they are who they are. I think my top 7 guys would instantly make most teams better. RG III, Luck, and Freeman all have what it takes to be in that same category within the next few years.

What? Arguably the worst OL in the league, worst HC, a RB who doesnt play most downs when he should, especially in crunch time(again, HC) WR's that havent been very good. Meachum and Royal have stunk this year and are getting outplayed badly buy a guy they got off the street who had no TC with them. Meachum has been a big disapointment.

Norv Turner is the biggest problem as Rodney Harrison pointed out rather forcefully the other day. Cant wait till he gets fired and if we have to lose every game the rest of the year to make it happen...ill all for it.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Meh. You guys will have a fun, pointless year or two with Manning.

Chiefs will control this division for 15 years with Geno Smith.

[Hamrob]

Originally Posted by Boltjolt

What? Arguably the worst OL in the league, worst HC, a RB who doesnt play most downs when he should, especially in crunch time(again, HC) WR's that havent been very good. Meachum and Royal have stunk this year and are getting outplayed badly buy a guy they got off the street who had no TC with them. Meachum has been a big disapointment.

Norv Turner is the biggest problem as Rodney Harrison pointed out rather forcefully the other day. Cant wait till he gets fired and if we have to lose every game the rest of the year to make it happen...ill all for it.

I've watch enough chargers games this year to see that...the team has plenty of talent. The defense is plenty solid, the running game is better than average...regardless of whether Mathews is in there or not, and they have good enough receivers to get the job done. Not to mention a HOF TE. Phillip Rivers has been absolutely pathetic. Some of the throws he's made are Tebowesk! How many picks has he thrown Looks like another 20+ int year...that's 2 in a row. Say what you want...but, he's regressed big time!

[Hamrob]

Originally Posted by BroncoMan4ever

They have the POTENTIAL to be great, they aren't great now. Take Wayne away from Luck and he looks like Blaine Gabbert. Take Jackson from Freeman and he looks like the QB that people weren't sute he could be a franchise guy.

Potential is a funny thing. Quinn, Russell, Akili, Harrington, Carr are all guys who had potential but for whatever reason flamed out. Now I'm not saying that Luck, RGIII, and Freeman will go that way, but it is still to soon to put them ahead of a guy like Schaub or Flacco that have won games and played more than half a season.

O.K. smart guy....your the GM:

You get the choice of Schaub, or:

Luck
RGIII
Freeman

Who do you take??

[baja]

Originally Posted by Hamrob

O.K. smart guy....your the GM:

You get the choice of Schaub, or:

Luck
RGIII
Freeman

Who do you take??

For just this season?

[BroncoMan4ever]

Originally Posted by Hamrob

O.K. smart guy....your the GM:

You get the choice of Schaub, or:

Luck
RGIII
Freeman

Who do you take??

Am I playing to win now or am I looking to build a team from the ground up?

If I have a Broncos getting Peyton in an all in win now move I am taking Schaub. He has shown that he can get the job done and has more NFL experience.

If I am looking to build a franchise from the ground up I take RGIII. I take him for his pure athletic ability that makes him one of the most dangerous players, leadership ability and charisma.

Look, I'm not saying Luck, RGIII and Freeman are bad or won't amount to anything. I am saying that 10 games is not enough to be proclaimed a top 10 QB. And in the case of Freeman he has been too hot and cold for my liking

[BroncoMan4ever]

Originally Posted by baja

I'd say with the way RGIII is playing you got to put him at the bottom of the top list.

I agree he has looked good, but in my mind he is still just a rookie and needs to do more than be a fantasy stud to be considered elite. In my eyes as a passer he at times looks like he plays not to make a mistake instead of going all out.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by BroncoMan4ever

They have the POTENTIAL to be great, they aren't great now. Take Wayne away from Luck and he looks like Blaine Gabbert. Take Jackson from Freeman and he looks like the QB that people weren't sute he could be a franchise guy.

Potential is a funny thing. Quinn, Russell, Akili, Harrington, Carr are all guys who had potential but for whatever reason flamed out. Now I'm not saying that Luck, RGIII, and Freeman will go that way, but it is still to soon to put them ahead of a guy like Schaub or Flacco that have won games and played more than half a season.

Take Newton as an example he was unstoppable last year. Not so much this year. He carried that team last year, is ordinary this year. Even with loads of talent around him, nothing special.

[delany]

Originally Posted by Hamrob

I
To me, the bottom line is this: You have to have a top-10 QB to compete in this league. Teams that do....make the playoffs....teams that don't draft high until they find one. How's that for analysis? Pretty easy stuff

Agreed. It is so important that you still need to draft a super young guy like Twilight even after getting Peyton and trying to make a Super Bowl run.

The pipeline never should be empty for a top ten potential QB on your roster. If Brock doesn't work out, get another one and another one etc. If Peyton retires and you still haven't found your guy that has top ten ability, break the bank on a FA one if you can. It is that important for success.

I love all the shots in game of Brock sitting right next to Peyton on the sidelne. Glued at the hip and soaking it all in. I love hearing the stories of Peyton stopping the film in the pre-season and quizzing Brock on different things.

Brock isn't assured of being a top ten QB....but he has the raw talent and he is being coached up the right way. Hopefully Denver will not have to worry about this for a long time.

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by Hamrob

O.K. smart guy....your the GM:

You get the choice of Schaub, or:

Luck
RGIII
Freeman

Who do you take??

Luck, and there's really no point in discussing it any further.

[Cache Glades]

Originally Posted by lonestar

Take Newton as an example he was unstoppable last year. Not so much this year. He carried that team last year, is ordinary this year. Even with loads of talent around him, nothing special.

I know right. Nothing special. Man I was going to say the same thing man!!

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by Cache Glades

I know right. Nothing special. Man I was going to say the same thing man!!

I think he was great last year because they could not stop him. this year a DC figured out how to ans since then NaDA.

Next year it will be rg3 and Lucks turn. Although Luck maybe the real deal, baby Peyton.

[Boltjolt]

Originally Posted by Hamrob

I've watch enough chargers games this year to see that...the team has plenty of talent. The defense is plenty solid, the running game is better than average...regardless of whether Mathews is in there or not, and they have good enough receivers to get the job done. Not to mention a HOF TE. Phillip Rivers has been absolutely pathetic. Some of the throws he's made are Tebowesk! How many picks has he thrown Looks like another 20+ int year...that's 2 in a row. Say what you want...but, he's regressed big time!

I guess you havent watched enough no matter what you claim. First and foremost, Norv Turner is the biggest problem with the team. The OL is second and is just absolutely horrible.

Our running game isnt good at all. We havent had a 100 yard rusher all year and are 25th in rushing with only 4 rushing TD's,... averaging under 4 YPC when Mathews last year was near 5 YPC . The running game was crap from week 1 of preseason and has never got untracked.

Rivers you can say has regressed but id also say it is in big part because of the OL. He has been sacked 32 times, hurried probably a hundred times and knocked down who knows how many times. He is lucky he isnt hurt to be quite honest.
Gates has only 32 receptions to this point. The top three in receptions this season,.. two are RB's, Floyd is the top guy. Meachum and Royal have been pretty non existant.

When is the last time in years have you seen our offense struggle like it has? Its because of the awful OL. Yes Rivers has been making bad decisions and imo he is trying to hard to make plays whe he shouldnt be throwing some passes. He didnt do that yesterday and didnt have any INT's. Made good decisions but again, he was harrassed all day long.

[boltaneer]

Originally Posted by Hamrob

I've watch enough chargers games this year to see that...the team has plenty of talent. The defense is plenty solid, the running game is better than average...regardless of whether Mathews is in there or not, and they have good enough receivers to get the job done. Not to mention a HOF TE. Phillip Rivers has been absolutely pathetic. Some of the throws he's made are Tebowesk! How many picks has he thrown Looks like another 20+ int year...that's 2 in a row. Say what you want...but, he's regressed big time!

Of course he's regressed. No QB would be successful behind this line, especially a pocket passer like Rivers.

Look at how Vick has regressed this year. Not that he was ever that great but it looked like he was finally starting to see the light after arriving in Philly a couple of years ago. But their o-line woes started last year and has become atrocious this year. Turnovers are going to happen more frequently as the QB gets hurried, hit and sacked more.

Meachem is a bust. They miss Vincent Jackson. Gates is just not the same but he's still often getting double teamed and he's a complete non-factor now. They never found a replacement for Sproles. Injuries to Royal and Vincent Brown leave them with no slot receiver. Floyd is a nice player but he's a long-strider and Rivers doesn't have time to throw many deep balls this year. With the running game being non-existent, there's really nothing left for the offense though Alexander has really emerged these past couple of weeks. He may become Vincent Jackson-lite for them.

Norv Turner isn't doing Rivers any favors either by constantly calling his trademark slow developing seven-step drop plays. He stubbornly refuses to adapt his playcalling due to the circumstances.

It's just a perfect storm of injures, a crappy o-line, a terrible head coach/playcalling and a QB who feels the pressure of having to do more than he can.

[Jetland]

Originally Posted by boltaneer

Of course he's regressed. No QB would be successful behind this line, especially a pocket passer like Rivers.

Look at how Vick has regressed this year. Not that he was ever that great but it looked like he was finally starting to see the light after arriving in Philly a couple of years ago. But their o-line woes started last year and has become atrocious this year. Turnovers are going to happen more frequently as the QB gets hurried, hit and sacked more.

Meachem is a bust. They miss Vincent Jackson. Gates is just not the same but he's still often getting double teamed and he's a complete non-factor now. They never found a replacement for Sproles. Injuries to Royal and Vincent Brown leave them with no slot receiver. Floyd is a nice player but he's a long-strider and Rivers doesn't have time to throw many deep balls this year. With the running game being non-existent, there's really nothing left for the offense though Alexander has really emerged these past couple of weeks. He may become Vincent Jackson-lite for them.

Norv Turner isn't doing Rivers any favors either by constantly calling his trademark slow developing seven-step drop plays. He stubbornly refuses to adapt his playcalling due to the circumstances.

It's just a perfect storm of injures, a crappy o-line, a terrible head coach/playcalling and a QB who feels the pressure of having to do more than he can.

would love to sit down with Edward and see how all this is working out for him

[eddie mac]

Has one team always been so dominant division wise in the AFC

Denver - 4 game lead
Houston - 3 game lead
New England - 3 game lead
Baltimore - 3 game lead

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by eddie mac

Has one team always been so dominant division wise in the AFC

Denver - 4 game lead
Houston - 3 game lead
New England - 3 game lead
Baltimore - 3 game lead

The NFC isn't very close either.

[Old Dude]

Chargers get the Fork, joining the Chiefs and Raiders:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...diego-chargers

[Drek]

Originally Posted by Boltjolt

When is the last time in years have you seen our offense struggle like it has? Its because of the awful OL. Yes Rivers has been making bad decisions and imo he is trying to hard to make plays whe he shouldnt be throwing some passes. He didnt do that yesterday and didnt have any INT's. Made good decisions but again, he was harrassed all day long.

I'd agree that Rivers' problems have more to do with the OL, the receivers, lack of a running game, and inability to win field position battles on defense than with his own sudden inability to play football.

But you know what, the same could have been said for Marc Bulger not so long ago in his time with the Rams. He was a standout QB for a few years, then the greatest show on turf crew started to retire one by one and Bulger started taking a lot of hits. He never returned to what he used to be, even for the infrequent years when the Rams OL wasn't horrible and when Jackson was an elite RB.

What Chargers fans need to be concerned with isn't whether Rivers is the problem or not. You guys should be worried about how many years the beating Rivers has taken the last couple years has shaved off the prime of his career. He's almost 31 years old. Every statistical analysis pegs the athletic peak of most athletes as the years between 27-31. Rivers is on the wrong side of that now and has spent the last two years getting used and abused. I wouldn't be so quick to bet that simply improving the deficiencies around him will suddenly return him to his peak performances of old.

Best path forward for the Chargers if you ask me is to look for an elite feature back and get back to a commitment on defense. They aren't replacing Rivers any time soon but he's also probably not returning to perennial pro-bowl contender levels any time real soon either. Another person who can single handedly put up points is needed, and in today's NFL if you do that via the running game you need to supplement the slower rate of scoring v. passing offenses with a strong D.

[boltaneer]

Yeah, Bulger crumbled because of injuries.

That hasn't happened to Rivers (yet). Same style of offense though. I hope whoever comes in, installs a new type of offense. The Coryell offense was innovative and great in the day but I think it's time to move on as the NFL changes.

[Inkana7]

Can Rivers even physically play a different kind of offense? He always looks uncomfortable and retarded when throwing passes that aren't 15+ yards downfield and was always best when throwing it up to Jackson and Gates. I just don't see him succeeding in a non-Coryell offense.

[Drek]

Originally Posted by boltaneer

Yeah, Bulger crumbled because of injuries.

That hasn't happened to Rivers (yet). Same style of offense though. I hope whoever comes in, installs a new type of offense. The Coryell offense was innovative and great in the day but I think it's time to move on as the NFL changes.

Rivers hasn't missed games, it doesn't mean he isn't getting physically abused.

Bulger's problem wasn't the injuries taking away physical talent, it was all the hits and the collapsing pockets making him hear footsteps from all sides and play like who knows he's about to get hit all the time.

A lot like Rivers is currently playing, FYI.

That is a hard thing to unlearn once it's been (literally) beaten into you. Rivers hasn't taken the shellacking Bulger did in terms of both duration of inferior OL play and actual hits, but damage has clearly been done. He's talented enough to where his chances to bounce back are greater than most, but what will he bounce back to? What is the new ceiling for Rivers? He's getting older at the same time here, keep that in mind. 31 or 32 year old Phillip Rivers isn't going to be able to do quite the same things that 28 year old Phillip Rivers could.

You've got to protect aging QBs if you want them to age with any grace at all. The Chargers aren't doing that at all with Rivers. He could be leading the league in passing right now and the current level of protection he gets would still be an ominous sign of things to come.