So What's the Common Ground Moving Forward

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Drek

Close all foreign military bases. We got aircraft carriers and allies with military bases all around the world. Bring all our troops home.

If we need to get involved in a foreign conflict (get into when that should happen later) we send a carrier or two out to the nearest large body of water and carpet bomb and drone strike our opponent into the stone age. Problem solved.


Wasn't this the spirit that our nation was founded on? You can't just gift liberty and democracy onto people. We've found that out all too clearly in the last several decades of American foreign conflict.


After WWI we were not an unquestioned super power like we are now, and there was nothing close to the coalition of allies currently constructed via NATO, etc..


That would be the ideal. Shave military spending down to ~3.0% of GDP via extracting ourselves from foreign involvement and more efficient management.


When did peace in the middle east become entirely a U.S. responsibility? Can't get along with your neighbors? Sort it out. We've carried water for Israel for too damn long as it is and now they're back antagonizing other nations because they think big brother (the U.S.) will always have their back. Time for them to grow up.


Russia is militarily weak and will not directly intercede to save Assad. Turkey is militarily capable of protecting themselves.


And they're years away from a strike on U.S. soil. Sounds like other people's problem.


Not at all. Its just time to stop playing world police. We can still help NATO and provide a lot of the muscle to joint efforts, but we should no longer obligate ourselves to ensuring peace across the world.

Consolidate all military R&D into a single multi-branch chaired board where new technologies are developed based on cross-branch synergy. No more heavy R&D on three or four different jets spread throughout the branches, or service rifles, etc.. No more iterative annual upgrades to state of the art tech that adds zero increased functionality.

Instead all R&D should be focused on the long term game. Develop a fighter that can last several years for example and spend the time in between iterations planning on a true step forward. Stagger updates throughout the entire fleet of aircraft, watercraft, firearms, etc..

It would add significant efficiency and let the gov't. suppliers actually meet demand for updates, not being behind in production until well after the next iteration is already ready to replace it.

Further, our military needs to change how it approaches military personnel. Standards of conduct need to be overhauled so that personal failings (like adultery) are set aside and instead we focus on actual results. Thomas E. Ricks' new book "The Generals" underscores the kind of change we need. The Peter Principle can't be allowed to occur in our military. You only reach the highest point of your greatest efficiency, not the point of incompetence. This should be achieved through demotions which need to be viewed as a move to better the nation, not a slight.

Bravo! My sentiments exactly. We were never supposed to be the policeman of the world, or an empire.

[Fedaykin]

Still haven't answered Cutt: what have the hundreds of billions of dollars in additional spending a year on defense bought us?

[orinjkrush]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

What has brought America down is older than the Old Testament: Greed.

Simple.

and Fear. The greedy fear losing their wealth. That's why they will willingly fund defense. but nothing else.

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by Doggcow

Or we could conquer the world!

Ageed! We should do that through trade!....however....

Even if we conquered the world successfully the problem then relies on "keeping" the world. We do not, can not, and will not have a large enough standing army.

Our staggering military budget is so that we can get fight exceedingly well in a standup fight. Oddly enough the "bad guys" in Afghanistan are killing our men with stuff we throw away. We do not do well in police actions. Any country fighting us need merely surrender and then we weary and forget why we were went there.

One of the failings of consumerism is we tend to think everything has a price or we can buy whatever we want. Nowhere in the military budget do you hear conversations about cross training, military accounting, or efficiency. You just hear the words "cut" or "downsize" which is reckless. Military needs to answer their own question. How do you do more with less?

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by Drek

Close all foreign military bases. We got aircraft carriers and allies with military bases all around the world. Bring all our troops home.

If we need to get involved in a foreign conflict (get into when that should happen later) we send a carrier or two out to the nearest large body of water and carpet bomb and drone strike our opponent into the stone age. Problem solved.

Wasn't this the spirit that our nation was founded on? You can't just gift liberty and democracy onto people. We've found that out all too clearly in the last several decades of American foreign conflict.

After WWI we were not an unquestioned super power like we are now, and there was nothing close to the coalition of allies currently constructed via NATO, etc..

That would be the ideal. Shave military spending down to ~3.0% of GDP via extracting ourselves from foreign involvement and more efficient management.

When did peace in the middle east become entirely a U.S. responsibility? Can't get along with your neighbors? Sort it out. We've carried water for Israel for too damn long as it is and now they're back antagonizing other nations because they think big brother (the U.S.) will always have their back. Time for them to grow up.

Russia is militarily weak and will not directly intercede to save Assad. Turkey is militarily capable of protecting themselves.

And they're years away from a strike on U.S. soil. Sounds like other people's problem.

Not at all. Its just time to stop playing world police. We can still help NATO and provide a lot of the muscle to joint efforts, but we should no longer obligate ourselves to ensuring peace across the world.

Consolidate all military R&D into a single multi-branch chaired board where new technologies are developed based on cross-branch synergy. No more heavy R&D on three or four different jets spread throughout the branches, or service rifles, etc.. No more iterative annual upgrades to state of the art tech that adds zero increased functionality.

Instead all R&D should be focused on the long term game. Develop a fighter that can last several years for example and spend the time in between iterations planning on a true step forward. Stagger updates throughout the entire fleet of aircraft, watercraft, firearms, etc..

It would add significant efficiency and let the gov't. suppliers actually meet demand for updates, not being behind in production until well after the next iteration is already ready to replace it.

Further, our military needs to change how it approaches military personnel. Standards of conduct need to be overhauled so that personal failings (like adultery) are set aside and instead we focus on actual results. Thomas E. Ricks' new book "The Generals" underscores the kind of change we need. The Peter Principle can't be allowed to occur in our military. You only reach the highest point of your greatest efficiency, not the point of incompetence. This should be achieved through demotions which need to be viewed as a move to better the nation, not a slight.

1. Our staggering wealth as a nation is based no trade. The bases that we have opened globally has created jobs globally, stability, infrastructure, and is a source of cash flow to our nation. The problem with closing the bases is military industrial complex...you know...the guys who brought you the last few wars...would have a hard time walking away from the money made aspect. What has happened in "scaling back" is more mega bases.

2. We should reward corporations for R&D instead of the military. This needs to be real R&D judged by an impartial committee and not military or corporate lobbyists. No more short term solutions. No more A-B chess playing. Military research is created through corporate dollars. Why not go straight to the source?

3. Military needs to completely restructured. There needs to be one military, less fiefdoms, cleaned up accounting, and unified logistics. They need to rebuild the NCO core and get leaders in leadership roles and let the sheep manage desks. The military needs to be fast, effective, and decisive. Do not call on fighting men to do police work.

4. NATO is the world police. This needs to be made clear and unforced. You want American support? Put your money in NATO.

5. Peace in the middle east became our concern when Nixon made several agreements making that so. We are so in bed with Israel that any separation would cost us desperately. As long as Israel is threatened, we have fiat currency, and there is oil in the middle east we have a business and national security reason to be there.

6. Military standards need to be revised and both the NCO core and Officer core values need to reviewed. Our standards have slipped as we have allowed corruption to taint how a soldier commits to his craft. A soldier is not a statesman. We need to send all our soldiers through Ranger training who want to attend and from these select the ones who can become inducted as Ranger's based on objective evaluation instead of numbers.

7. Rebuild Special Forces. We need more experienced soldiers here and instead of allowing them to be contractors increase pay, benefits, and treat this as a profession rather than allowing our best to become mercenary. This is our primary fighting force in the future. Nobody is going to fight us with Big Army anymore.

8. Army needs to be more flexible. We have too many soldiers in the wrong jobs. Get the gun bunnies out on the road and get the storage clerks back to counting supplies.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by Bacchus

there could be a jobs bill, maybe a highway bill, I do not expect much though.

I fully expect to go over the fiscal cliff. It will be fun to watch!!

Well, the knuckleheads (on both sides) have started talking finally in order to avert the cliff. Both sides are saying the right things, we'll see if they can force it down the throats of their far-left and far-right wings. The pragmatists in the Center of both parties have to carry the argument.

[orinjkrush]

I'll chime in...

Originally Posted by Odysseus

1. Our staggering wealth as a nation is based no trade. The bases that we have opened globally has created jobs globally, stability, infrastructure, and is a source of cash flow to our nation. The problem with closing the bases is military industrial complex...you know...the guys who brought you the last few wars...would have a hard time walking away from the money made aspect. What has happened in "scaling back" is more mega bases.

we need to have a few (20 or fewer) permanent strategic bases around the world as launching points. not the hundreds we now have.

2. We should reward corporations for R&D instead of the military. This needs to be real R&D judged by an impartial committee and not military or corporate lobbyists. No more short term solutions. No more A-B chess playing. Military research is created through corporate dollars. Why not go straight to the source?

the amount of money we currently put into IR&D for companies is already obscene. any nitwit who says he can kill more with less gets funded. R&D is a special "black hole" into which money drains and needs to be very carefully monitored.

3. Military needs to completely restructured. There needs to be one military, less fiefdoms, cleaned up accounting, and unified logistics. They need to rebuild the NCO core and get leaders in leadership roles and let the sheep manage desks. The military needs to be fast, effective, and decisive. Do not call on fighting men to do police work.

you've identified many issues here. all are valid to a degree. one of the overarching problems with both the officer and nco corps is the up or out philosophy. it winnows those who want to stay from those who should stay efficiently, but at the expense of fostering a careerist-political-avoid mistakes mentality. hence some, but not most, make it to the flag rank who shouldn't.

4. NATO is the world police. This needs to be made clear and unforced. You want American support? Put your money in NATO.

I like this idea alot. our troops are only to be used for WARFARE not police actions nor diplomacy. asking 20 yr olds to police Afghan towns and act as diplomats is idiotic.

5. Peace in the middle east became our concern when Nixon made several agreements making that so. We are so in bed with Israel that any separation would cost us desperately. As long as Israel is threatened, we have fiat currency, and there is oil in the middle east we have a business and national security reason to be there.

Oil (energy) is one of our two achilles heels (the other our monetary system). until we radically fix these two we our strategically imperiled.

6. Military standards need to be revised and both the NCO core and Officer core values need to reviewed. Our standards have slipped as we have allowed corruption to taint how a soldier commits to his craft. A soldier is not a statesman. We need to send all our soldiers through Ranger training who want to attend and from these select the ones who can become inducted as Ranger's based on objective evaluation instead of numbers.

Agree. see my point above. however, in western society today we are struggling with monogamy and polygamy (in practice). judeo christian sanctions do not correspond with growing patterns of acceptable behavior. maybe if we went back in time to adopt the Spartan homosexual standard things would be simpler. kick all the heteros out, and stuff like Betrayus wouldn't happen.


7. Rebuild Special Forces. We need more experienced soldiers here and instead of allowing them to be contractors increase pay, benefits, and treat this as a profession rather than allowing our best to become mercenary. This is our primary fighting force in the future. Nobody is going to fight us with Big Army anymore.

Agree. All Army should be trained to Marine standards. All Marines should be trained to SEAL standards. Navy and Air Force rely on skills with big weapons not handheld, and need fighting spirit skills more than physical skills. Case in point: Taffey 3, Battle of Leyte Gulf.

8. Army needs to be more flexible. We have too many soldiers in the wrong jobs. Get the gun bunnies out on the road and get the storage clerks back to counting supplies.

All supply, storage, depot, transport, should be maximally contractor with uniformed personnel shooting rifles and on up to nukes. No contractors with guns. if they want to join the guard/reserves fine, but not for blackwater.

[cutthemdown]

I heard Reid took entitlements off the table. So the dems are offering even less this time around. i doubt a deal gets done. Fiscal cliff here we come. They will probably manage something but it won't be a deal, more like a patch.

[cutthemdown]

Originally Posted by Cito Pelon

Well, the knuckleheads (on both sides) have started talking finally in order to avert the cliff. Both sides are saying the right things, we'll see if they can force it down the throats of their far-left and far-right wings. The pragmatists in the Center of both parties have to carry the argument.

Your kidding right? Ried just said no entitlement cuts, zero. Yeah they are really working to avoid the cliff. Bleh both sides working more on who we will blame for it. Me I blame Obama its his job to get a deal done.

[Fedaykin]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

I heard Reid took entitlements off the table. So the dems are offering even less this time around. i doubt a deal gets done. Fiscal cliff here we come. They will probably manage something but it won't be a deal, more like a patch.

By "entitlements" I'm sure you mean SS and Medicare.

a.) They are not entitlements. They are programs people have been paying for, explicitly their entire lives.

b.) The balance sheet for those programs is currently $2.6 trillion in the black. That that money was stolen to pay for tax cuts and more bombs does not relieve us of our moral obligations nor excuse stealing that money from people.

[W*GS]

'cutthemdown' is the honorary Archie Bunker of the OM. None too bright, but 100% sure of his opinions.

[peacepipe]

Originally Posted by Cito Pelon

Dems gonna have to give up something, maybe energy exploration, giving up the Arctic Refuge in return for something. Having the House which is a big deal for the GOP means they can obstruct anything. Hopefully the House gives some things also like closing corporate loopholes. The GOP has some good ideas same as the Dems.

they're gonna have to give up more than that,dems have all the leverage on taxes. The GWB tax cuts expire Dec. 31,dems have no problems letting them expire. anything done after that will be a tax cut,so dems are in a win/win regardless.

[Pony Boy]

Originally Posted by W*GS

'cutthemdown' is the honorary Archie Bunker of the OM. None too bright, but 100% sure of his opinions.

Here you go W*GS, this should make your panties wet..............

On Tuesday, Al Gore again called for a “cap and trade” system by warning Americans the country faces a “climate cliff” in addition to a “fiscal cliff.”“

It will be difficult for sure but we can back away from the fiscal cliff and the climate cliff at the same time,” Gore said. “One way is with a carbon tax.”

[W*GS]

Funny thing about you right-wingers - you think you can ignore reality.

The lessons of the election went right over your pointy little heads. Too bad for you nature isn't as forgiving as Democrats.

[Odysseus]

[QUOTE=orinjkrush;3728871]I'll chime in...

I'll chime in...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus
1. Our staggering wealth as a nation is based no trade. The bases that we have opened globally has created jobs globally, stability, infrastructure, and is a source of cash flow to our nation. The problem with closing the bases is military industrial complex...you know...the guys who brought you the last few wars...would have a hard time walking away from the money made aspect. What has happened in "scaling back" is more mega bases.

we need to have a few (20 or fewer) permanent strategic bases around the world as launching points. not the hundreds we now have.

2. We should reward corporations for R&D instead of the military. This needs to be real R&D judged by an impartial committee and not military or corporate lobbyists. No more short term solutions. No more A-B chess playing. Military research is created through corporate dollars. Why not go straight to the source?

the amount of money we currently put into IR&D for companies is already obscene. any nitwit who says he can kill more with less gets funded. R&D is a special "black hole" into which money drains and needs to be very carefully monitored.

3. Military needs to completely restructured. There needs to be one military, less fiefdoms, cleaned up accounting, and unified logistics. They need to rebuild the NCO core and get leaders in leadership roles and let the sheep manage desks. The military needs to be fast, effective, and decisive. Do not call on fighting men to do police work.

you've identified many issues here. all are valid to a degree. one of the overarching problems with both the officer and nco corps is the up or out philosophy. it winnows those who want to stay from those who should stay efficiently, but at the expense of fostering a careerist-political-avoid mistakes mentality. hence some, but not most, make it to the flag rank who shouldn't.

4. NATO is the world police. This needs to be made clear and unforced. You want American support? Put your money in NATO.

I like this idea alot. our troops are only to be used for WARFARE not police actions nor diplomacy. asking 20 yr olds to police Afghan towns and act as diplomats is idiotic.

5. Peace in the middle east became our concern when Nixon made several agreements making that so. We are so in bed with Israel that any separation would cost us desperately. As long as Israel is threatened, we have fiat currency, and there is oil in the middle east we have a business and national security reason to be there.

Oil (energy) is one of our two achilles heels (the other our monetary system). until we radically fix these two we our strategically imperiled.

6. Military standards need to be revised and both the NCO core and Officer core values need to reviewed. Our standards have slipped as we have allowed corruption to taint how a soldier commits to his craft. A soldier is not a statesman. We need to send all our soldiers through Ranger training who want to attend and from these select the ones who can become inducted as Ranger's based on objective evaluation instead of numbers.

Agree. see my point above. however, in western society today we are struggling with monogamy and polygamy (in practice). judeo christian sanctions do not correspond with growing patterns of acceptable behavior. maybe if we went back in time to adopt the Spartan homosexual standard things would be simpler. kick all the heteros out, and stuff like Betrayus wouldn't happen.


7. Rebuild Special Forces. We need more experienced soldiers here and instead of allowing them to be contractors increase pay, benefits, and treat this as a profession rather than allowing our best to become mercenary. This is our primary fighting force in the future. Nobody is going to fight us with Big Army anymore.

Agree. All Army should be trained to Marine standards. All Marines should be trained to SEAL standards. Navy and Air Force rely on skills with big weapons not handheld, and need fighting spirit skills more than physical skills. Case in point: Taffey 3, Battle of Leyte Gulf.

8. Army needs to be more flexible. We have too many soldiers in the wrong jobs. Get the gun bunnies out on the road and get the storage clerks back to counting supplies.
All supply, storage, depot, transport, should be maximally contractor with uniformed personnel shooting rifles and on up to nukes. No contractors with guns. if they want to join the guard/reserves fine, but not for blackwater.

It would be literally this easy to fix military issues if our congress was not tied up at the top with old ideas, old concepts, and cronyism corrupting our fiscal responsibility.

Contractors should not have weapons. If they want to shoot then they need to suit up.

Our best and brightest should not be for sale. We need to provide across the board ranger school training and reward our best and brightest with early retirement to school house and/or special force training. We keep giving up our best guys for the worst of causes and or reasons.

Let the Special Forces be gun slingers and ride the range. Do not call on big Army unless you want the country wrecked. If we are not in the nation building business than we need to cross train soldiers, raise their skill level, retain our best and brightest and use contractors OUTSIDE of MOS qualified positions. If a qualified soldier is there the SOLDIER it's the soldiers job to lose not the other way around.

We need to get away from massive Army movements and focus on more specific task oriented movements. Cutting numbers in half should not mean whole slashing and burning like it is traditionally done. That is stupid!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I don't want to find "common ground" with 'tards like Pony Boy.

I'd have to part with too many brain cells.

I'd just as soon sit back and watch his kind go extinct...which is exactly what's happening as we speak.

[cutthemdown]

Originally Posted by Fedaykin

By "entitlements" I'm sure you mean SS and Medicare.

a.) They are not entitlements. They are programs people have been paying for, explicitly their entire lives.

b.) The balance sheet for those programs is currently $2.6 trillion in the black. That that money was stolen to pay for tax cuts and more bombs does not relieve us of our moral obligations nor excuse stealing that money from people.

So what things are the dems going to offer up in the compromise if they want touch any entitlement programs? And if no compromise then why lie to the American people and say you want to? Why not just use the election power and say we won, we are right, its our way or the highway?

[Pony Boy]

Liberals will not be happy until they return to the 1950's. In 1955 roughly a third of American workers were union members. The marginal tax rate for the ultra rich was 91% and taxes on corporate profits were twice as large, relative to national income. The best estimates suggest that circa 1960 the top 0.01 percent of Americans paid an effective federal tax rate of more than 70 percent, twice what they pay today.

If you had a 2-bedroom frame house on 1/8 acre with one automobile, one TV and a refrigerator you were considered upper middle class.

[Broncos_OTM]

Originally Posted by W*GS

'cutthemdown' is the honorary Archie Bunker of the OM. None too bright, but 100% sure of his opinions.

And you have no valid points inp this thread GTFO. Be a man debate. Don't be a troll. This thread is good stuff.

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Hard to find common ground with people who simply refuse to believe that greed exists.

There is no definition for greed because the definition for enough has become "if I can take it then it belongs to me." This needs to change.

Conservatives need to stop being terrified of liberals and start talking to them. Most of them, like me, are not progressives, socialists, or anything more than a little left of center. This fear of your neighbor is what is destroying any sense of community and is insulting to all Americans.

Liberals need to reach out to conservatives or else no conversation will evolve. Progressives need to start claiming they are progressives so liberals can come out of hiding. Conservatives need to stop pretending the Religious right represents all their views.

I know of few deals brokered by any nanny nanny poo poo contingent.

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

I don't want to find "common ground" with 'tards like Pony Boy.

I'd have to part with too many brain cells.

I'd just as soon sit back and watch his kind go extinct...which is exactly what's happening as we speak.

Sometimes showing compassion to one trapped in the diaspora is the only kindness you can show here with this crowd of "imaginary friends".

Sometimes a question will yield better results than an closed ended accusation.

Sometimes rather than jumping in the muck it is considerably more satisfying to see if they are willing to climb out of the muck.

Sometimes we are all wrong about what know for certain.

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by Pony Boy

Liberals will not be happy until they return to the 1950's. In 1955 roughly a third of American workers were union members. The marginal tax rate for the ultra rich was 91% and taxes on corporate profits were twice as large, relative to national income. The best estimates suggest that circa 1960 the top 0.01 percent of Americans paid an effective federal tax rate of more than 70 percent, twice what they pay today.

If you had a 2-bedroom frame house on 1/8 acre with one automobile, one TV and a refrigerator you were considered upper middle class.

I thought most liberal were in the media or were Hollywood stars. Are you an expert on liberals?

Can you tell me the difference between a progressive and liberal? I do not think that you can. You tend to generalize everything.

Have you ever been active in politics? I think you should consider getting active because the reality is starkly different than your imaginations. Are you part of the religious right? You will need to pick your form of Jesus if you really want to play RNC.

I was considering becoming an atheist. I actually believe devoutly in Christ but the problem is I prefer being associated with higher class crowd of hypocrite than the Tea Party Jesus being pimped by the Right.

http://teapartyjesus.tumblr.com/page/4

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

So what things are the dems going to offer up in the compromise if they want touch any entitlement programs? And if no compromise then why lie to the American people and say you want to? Why not just use the election power and say we won, we are right, its our way or the highway?

Both parties have tried that. It failed. It's called being stupid.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Odysseus

Sometimes showing compassion to one trapped in the diaspora is the only kindness you can show here with this crowd of "imaginary friends".

Sometimes a question will yield better results than an closed ended accusation.

Sometimes rather than jumping in the muck it is considerably more satisfying to see if they are willing to climb out of the muck.

Sometimes we are all wrong about what know for certain.

Sometimes you can't save an old dog and it has to be put down.

Such is the GOP.

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Sometimes you can't save an old dog and it has to be put down.

Such is the GOP.

The elephant is not dead nor ready for soup.

The Dixiecrat still exist. The antebellum south is alive and well and banksters (Carpet baggers) are like JP Morgan selling dead weapons for gold.

Nobody wins a war of absolutes and an animal is most dangerous when it has nothing to lose. This is a poor game but I wish you the best.