Secession petitions filed in 20 states

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by Arkie

I found this one. There may be more.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...nited/ZfpkwtSZ

I guess this means i have to come off witness relocation.

[Odysseus]

There are some pretty messed up petitions being entertained there. I do, however think this one is appropriate.

Force all states to pay their portion of the national debt before they can secede from the union

Residents of all states who wish to secede from the union should be required to take their own advice about 'personal responsibility', and pay their share of the national debt before being released to fend for themselves.

This debt must be paid in full, or they cannot leave.

This means no federal assistance, period.

Abridged list includes no more upkeep for highways, nor for interstates or bridges, no federally funded law enforcement or fire department, no public libraries, no phone lines, no cable television, no cell phone towers, no power grids, no water lines, no mail services, no paramedics, no hospitals which accept Medicare/Medicaid funding, no ATF, FBI, DOJ, SWAT, or Department of Homeland Security, no Border Guard, National Guard, Coast Guard, Corps of Engineers, or WITSEC.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Arkie

That's a nice blanket statement that covers all of space and time to make people feel guilty for not accepting the uni-party we've had for the last 30 years. If the federal government is not working for the people, then secession is the last peaceful action the people can take.

The Constitution allows for all sorts of ways for the people to change the government: Changing representatives, writing simple bills, laws, impeachment, amendments to the Constitution, a constitutional convention, challenges in the courts, etc. What it doesn't allow is secession. That's treason; Usually the last resort of cowards who realize that they believe in whacked political theories that have no chance of gaining popular political support.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Odysseus

Let's see....bloodiest war on American soil in American history or use a cotton gin....hmmm.

Industrial age would have happened with or without the Civil war. I cannot think of anything good that came from that conflict.

Mao Tse Tung (Chinese legendary leader) rightfully called WWI and WWII as Europe's civil war. Interesting perspective to be sure.

America will probably dissolve within the next 100 years. It is unfortunate but even the best of empire collapses.

Actually, it wasn't an either/or. The cotton gin was the primary technological factor making the Civil War almost inevitable; The South had to have more slaves to feed the gins in order to make lots more money. Their whole economy ended up based on that. As far as what came from the Civil War? The basic set of tactics that led to the monumental butchery of WWI.

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Actually, it wasn't an either/or. The cotton gin was the primary technological factor making the Civil War almost inevitable; The South had to have more slaves to feed the gins in order to make lots more money. Their whole economy ended up based on that. As far as what came from the Civil War? The basic set of tactics that led to the monumental butchery of WWI.

I don't think the cotton gin was as important to the inevitability as was the politics surrounding it but nonetheless I concede this point.

I would not call trench warfare much of a discovery. The Irish brigade was decimated that day in the Wilderness.

JP Morgan made his fortune selling surplus (broken) weapons to the Union. Henry rifle was proven effective. Quite a bit of the firearms basics like rifling and cartridge design came from necessity of war. War only breeds war.

Right now we have a generation of men deployed three to five times who know nothing about peace.

[Fedaykin]

Originally Posted by houghtam

Absolutely capital gains should be taxed at a higher rate. Incidentally, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities shows that, according to your statements, you don't really know much about capital gains.



http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3798



10 Things You Need to Know About Capital Gains

An addition:

For the bulk of the middle class who do benefit from capital gains, they never get the benefits of the 15% LTCG tax. Why? Because the bulk of the capital gains for the middle class come from two sources:

1.) Real Estate
2.) Retirement plans.

Most people's retirement plans (401s, 403s and IRA), which are every bit as risky as any other type of stock investments are not taxed as LTCG, they are taxed as regular income. Not just the portion of the investment that was untaxed originally, but the entire amount.

Real Estate, in most places, is also a big gamble (as many found out in 2008), and while gains in real estate are taxed as capital gains, real estate is also subject to property taxes and other taxes which add to the tax burden. Let's not forget interest on mortgages, which seriously erodes any actual gains.

[Fedaykin]

Originally Posted by Odysseus

There are some pretty messed up petitions being entertained there. I do, however think this one is appropriate.

Force all states to pay their portion of the national debt before they can secede from the union

Residents of all states who wish to secede from the union should be required to take their own advice about 'personal responsibility', and pay their share of the national debt before being released to fend for themselves.

This debt must be paid in full, or they cannot leave.

This means no federal assistance, period.

Abridged list includes no more upkeep for highways, nor for interstates or bridges, no federally funded law enforcement or fire department, no public libraries, no phone lines, no cable television, no cell phone towers, no power grids, no water lines, no mail services, no paramedics, no hospitals which accept Medicare/Medicaid funding, no ATF, FBI, DOJ, SWAT, or Department of Homeland Security, no Border Guard, National Guard, Coast Guard, Corps of Engineers, or WITSEC.

The bulk of the red states are screwed, their fair share is almost all of it, given the disparity in revenues and outlays to those states.

Except for a couple of the more populous red states (in the south) red states rely 100% on the federal government to continue to function -- which is simply a result of large monetary requirements coupled with small populations.

All those "independent, pull yourself up by your own bootstrapts folks in Montana, the Dakotas, Wyoming, Alaska, Idaho, etc. all rely on the charity of the rest of the nation to maintain their lifestyle. Yet the blue states (and to be fair a couple of the more populous red states) bleeding money to help them out are called the leeches.

[Requiem]

ND and SD govern themselves quite well. What charity are they receiving to maintain their lifestyle? I don't see how you can group the Dakota's in with Alaska, Idaho, Wyoming, etc.

[Fedaykin]

Originally Posted by Requiem

ND and SD govern themselves quite well. What charity are they receiving to maintain their lifestyle? I don't see how you can group the Dakota's in with Alaska, Idaho, Wyoming, etc.

The Dakotas receive a large subsidy (taxes) from the Federal government to continue operating.

According to Wiki, both have a net drain on tax monies of ~4500/person. They spend about 2x as much as they have internal revenue. Doesn't mean the people are -bad- just means they don't have enough internal revenue to maintain their state. It sucks, but its inevitable when you have huge states with small populations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...nding_by_state

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Fedaykin

The Dakotas receive a large subsidy (taxes) from the Federal government to continue operating.

According to Wiki, both have a net drain on tax monies of ~4500/person. They spend about 2x as much as they have internal revenue. Doesn't mean the people are -bad- just means they don't have enough internal revenue to maintain their state. It sucks, but its inevitable when you have huge states with small populations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...nding_by_state

And I'm guessing the subsidies are largely due in part to what the state produces in the realm of agriculture.

[Fedaykin]

Originally Posted by Requiem

And I'm guessing the subsidies are largely due in part to what the state produces in the realm of agriculture.

It's mostly in things like highway funds, unemployment, education, etc. (including no doubt some agri-subs).

[Requiem]

Do funds towards the Reservations go towards that allocation? Quite possibly. I bet that skews the numbers quite a bit.

They are always doing work on the highways here.

Unemployment rate is very low ~ 4.5 % (in my town it's barely over three) so I doubt much money gets pumped into here for that.

Interesting link though, I'd just disagree with the assessment that our state successes are by in large thanks to other states who raise more revenue. The legislatures here at the state level in the Dakota's do a remarkable job with the hand they have been dealt.

[Spider]

**** em they signed the petition nothing short of treason ...strip of their rights

[Meck77]

All this talk of treason. Bailout out of crooks isn't treason? Remember when Obama said he was going to get tough on banks? Just go try and get a loan. Now you are about to handed the tax bill. *shrug* I guess it's what you wanted.

[razorwire77]

Secession will never happen in our lifetimes, but it would be hilarious to have a Mississippi or an Alabama actually go through with it and watch the mass exodus of people out of Bamaland and back to a U.S. backed state after 6 months or so when they realized just how badly it sucked ass.

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by Fedaykin

The bulk of the red states are screwed, their fair share is almost all of it, given the disparity in revenues and outlays to those states.

Except for a couple of the more populous red states (in the south) red states rely 100% on the federal government to continue to function -- which is simply a result of large monetary requirements coupled with small populations.

All those "independent, pull yourself up by your own bootstrapts folks in Montana, the Dakotas, Wyoming, Alaska, Idaho, etc. all rely on the charity of the rest of the nation to maintain their lifestyle. Yet the blue states (and to be fair a couple of the more populous red states) bleeding money to help them out are called the leeches.

I guess from an Ayn Rand point of view we should get rid of those useless states and create strict immigration laws so when their citizens want to trade with us or relocate inside our borders we can recover from their gross mishandling of our resources and fiduciary ability.

Everyone that hates the bankers will rue that day. Bailout is such an ugly word. They are crooks when they take OUR money but when they defend us we call them father's of liberty, patriots, and good Christian men. Strange world we abide in.

Indian Reservations would laugh. They are already sovereign. I might move up to the reservation and make money on trading with the different states. What an interesting place that will be.

It is a sad day when even the definition of treason is unclear.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The Confederacy of Takers

By Dana Milbank

Published: November 13

President Obama’s opponents have unwittingly come up with a brilliant plan to avoid the “fiscal cliff.” They want to secede from the union.

If Obama were serious about being a good steward of the nation’s finances, he’d let them.

The White House, in one of those astro-turf efforts that make people feel warm about small-d democracy, launched a “We the People” program on its Web site last year, allowing Americans to petition their government for a redress of grievances. Any petition that receives 25,000 or more signatures within 30 days is promised a response (though not necessarily a favorable one) from the Obama administration.

And so a large number of patriotic Americans, mostly from states won by Mitt Romney last week, have petitioned the White House to let them secede. They should be careful about what they wish for. It would be excellent financial news for those of us left behind if Obama were to grant a number of the rebel states their wish “to withdraw from the United States and create [their] own NEW government” (the petitions emphasize “new” by capitalizing it).

Red states receive, on average, far more from the federal government in expenditures than they pay in taxes. The balance is the opposite in blue states. The secession petitions, therefore, give the opportunity to create what would be, in a fiscal sense, a far more perfect union.

Among those states with large numbers of petitioners asking out: Louisiana (more than 28,000 signatures at midday Tuesday), which gets about $1.45 in federal largess for every $1 it pays in taxes; Alabama (more than 20,000 signatures), which takes $1.71 for every $1 it puts in; South Carolina (26,000), which takes $1.38 for its dollar; and Missouri (22,000), which takes $1.29 for its dollar.

Since the effort gained attention this week, copycats in all but a few states have joined the petition drive. To be fair, White House officials could refuse the secession petitions of states Obama won, such as New York (which gets only 79 cents on its tax dollar), Michigan (85 cents) and Colorado (79 cents).

What would be left is a Confederacy of Takers, including relatively poor states such as Alaska, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas and Mississippi. One of the few would-be Confederacy members that pays more than it receives is Texas, which because of oil money is roughly break-even at 94 cents of benefits for its tax dollar. (The statistics, from an analysis of tax and revenue data by the nonpartisan Tax Foundation, were published in 2006, but the broad pattern doesn’t vary much over time.)

Depending on how aggressive a fiscal hawk he wishes to be, Obama could also try to offload onto the Confederacy of the Takers North and South Dakota and Montana ($1.73, $1.49 and $1.58 in benefits, respectively), but this would probably only work if Canada agreed to allow overflight rights for American aircraft to reach the West Coast states of Washington, Oregon and California (88 cents, 97 cents and 79 cents on their tax dollars, respectively).

Possibly, the new United States would need to negotiate certain protectorates in the Confederacy — Austin, New Orleans, South Florida and the like — the way the British did in Hong Kong. Then there is the awkward matter of what the breakaway nation would do to its poor.

But once the handout states left the union (and took with them a proportionate share of the federal debt), the rest of the country could enjoy lower taxes and the high level of government service typical of the Northeast, the Great Lakes and the West Coast.

There would also be non-financial benefits. Tampa’s Central Command, now caught up in the David Petraeus sex scandal, would be the new nation’s problem. And the exit of several Southern representatives from Congress would give Democrats a solid governing majority.

Of course, secession isn’t as easy or as painless as an electronic petition, and Obama couldn’t offer a redress of these petitioners’ grievances even if he wanted to. Nor should he want to: The Union of the Makers would be fiscally healthy but spiritually poor without the Confederacy of the Takers.
Yet would-be rebels from the red states should keep in mind during the coming budget battle that those who are most ardent about cutting government spending tend to come from parts of the country that most rely on it.

[DAN_BRONCO_FAN]

once again it isnt states its unverified people on the net signing it i could pretend to be from new york and sign it.
its just a way for the government to get ahold of your name and probably laugh at you for being such a fool.
then maybe a irs audit down the road or some other gov harassment . you never know.

[DAN_BRONCO_FAN]

but im gonna do a peter griffith and proclaim my self the great country of dantopia whos with me or colorado can be its own country and call it elwaystan or mannington
and kick out all non BRONCO FANS

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

[Arkie]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Red states receive, on average, far more from the federal government in expenditures than they pay in taxes. The balance is the opposite in blue states.

This exemplifies welfare dependency making poverty worse. It would be doing the red states a favor to cut back on federal handouts.

[Arkie]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

The traitors also betrayed the United States simply in order to keep black people in chains. Sherman should have burned South Carolina to ash and then salted the Earth so it would still be a scorched reminder as the birthplace of treason. Instead, we rebuilt the land of the traitors, and how do they repay us? By trying to destroy our government.

Despite the stereotyping, South Carolina has yet to reach the 25,000 signatures needed. They're just barely ahead of Colorado.

[DAN_BRONCO_FAN]

http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/w...099-story-lie/

[DAN_BRONCO_FAN]

its a lie no state is leaving no place individuals cannot succeed from the usa you can renounce your citizen ship and leave go to another country but this is not family guy you cannot form your own individual country.
its not anything official. you are a idiot if do not go read the stuff on that link you morons

[Bronco Bob]

Originally Posted by bpc

Freedom is not paying more than others in taxes. That's a form of indentured servitude and is not acceptable.

Freedom isn't free: Stop whining and pay your taxes.