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Old 11-11-2012, 10:07 AM   #176
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I'd say this post is a perfect example of why the war on drugs is a failed cause.

No one wants to be a junkie. The reason people use is the same reason you're on this board. Escapism. Something to do. Most people can balance work, family, and recreation appropriately. Some people can't and those people turn into alcoholics, chronic smokers, pot heads, and addicts to other harder narcotics.

To underscore my point - I was watching A Football Life - 1995 Cleveland Browns on replay yesterday and my wife asked me why the hell someone would get so upset over losing a football team. My response to her was how upset would she be if she couldn't decorate for Christmas? A tradition she has had her whole life with her mother and grandmother. People build attachments and crave something to break up the day to day cycle of our lives. For some that day to day cycle is something they're actively looking to forget for various reasons.

This is how drug dependency starts. People looking to forget their problems for at least a short while getting hooked on that feeling of freedom, then getting hooked on the drug itself. Hard drugs like coke, crack, meth, heroin, etc. are especially dangerous because of how physically addictive they are and how destructive they are to one's ability to function without them. The later makes you run back to it from a mental standpoint more and more frequently, the later makes quitting something that is physically painful, even life threatening.

Portugal's former Estado Novo regime allowed rampant heroin use in order to keep the masses docile. When Estado Novo was overthrown and democracy returned to Portugal the nation spent nearly 30 years with some of the harshest criminal penalties for heroin use. The rate of use never showed significant decline.

In 2001 they decriminalized small amounts of any narcotic, turning it into an administrative penalty where you choose between rehab and jail time. Needless to say most choose rehab. They have since seen MASSIVE reduction in heroin addiction, from the high 30/low 40 percent range among young people to now down in the teens.

Junkies don't want to be junkies. Throwing them in jail for becoming a junkie is like throwing someone in jail for getting HIV through unprotected sex. Both result from bad choices and both result in a treatable ailment. We should instead focus on that treatment and making these people effective parts of society again, not sacrificing them to the penal system.
A good post and will briefly respond before moving on to other posts in the thread.

Mostly you are correct.
But you offer no solutions for the issue. Just like booze you have to have limits and control so it is not abused.

For drugs (hard in particular it has to be zero) and we have to figure out a way to stop it.

As for weed I do not have one. Can't stop morons from being morons other than jail. Even that is a joke in some areas with bribed guards and such.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:39 AM   #177
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Doesn't matter, no jury in Colorado would convict someone for cannabis.

Jury nullification can be a b****.
Are you aware that judges can override juries verdicts?

They are called directed verdicts.

As judges are sworn to uphold the law. Just hope you do not count on a jury to save your bacon.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:40 AM   #178
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I'd like to know how many of you pro-pot people wouldn't mind your surgeon or nurse using pot.
I can think of a lot of others big rigs drivers, airline pilots, firefighters, law enforcement, servicemen..

For those that use they will mock commentaries like these because IMO they are weak, young and stupid about the real world.

Thinking they have it all under control.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:27 AM   #179
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I'd like to know how many of you pro-pot people wouldn't mind your surgeon or nurse using pot.
You could make the same argument for the prohibition of alcohol.

Or hell, caffeine for that matter, as multiple studies have shown that regularly drinking caffeine can result in reduced motor control precision.

All aspects of work regulate what you can put in your body while working. What you do in your free time is not regulated based on employment.

I'd be just fine with a nurse or surgeon who smokes pot in their free time, same as a surgeon who likes to throw a few beers back watching football on his Sunday off. A surgeon who is a chronic smoker would give me FAR more pause than weed.

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A good post and will briefly respond before moving on to other posts in the thread.

Mostly you are correct.
But you offer no solutions for the issue. Just like booze you have to have limits and control so it is not abused.

For drugs (hard in particular it has to be zero) and we have to figure out a way to stop it.

As for weed I do not have one. Can't stop morons from being morons other than jail. Even that is a joke in some areas with bribed guards and such.
Actually, I specifically spelled out a solution to the issue that is currently working.

Something like weed you just legalize, as its no more harmful than alcohol or tobacco and therefore not worth the government's time beyond regulation of distribution and preventing illegal trafficking and underage purchases.

Everything else you decriminalize (not legalize) at small amounts tied strictly to personal use. Trafficking and large quantity possession is still a felony, but small amounts obviously for personal use are handled administratively. Jail does not fix addiction, rehab does. You said this yourself when talking about colleagues who've cleaned up through rehab. This is where we need to funnel users if the goal is to get them clean and not to feed the penal system with fresh convicts.

Rehab works. Not all the time, but a hell of a lot more often than incarceration. It's also cheaper than incarceration for state and federal governments. So why do we let misconceptions anyone who looks into this can clearly see continue to direct our drug policy?
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:04 AM   #180
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Are you aware that judges can override juries verdicts?

They are called directed verdicts.

As judges are sworn to uphold the law. Just hope you do not count on a jury to save your bacon.
Directed verdicts don't work that way. In criminal cases they can only be used to acquit, never to convict.

Jury nullification is a serious hurdle for the Feds in this situation. Don't kid yourself.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:48 AM   #181
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Sounds like nyuk nyuk and lonestar are jealous because they have never been in a pass da purp rotation.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:59 AM   #182
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A good post and will briefly respond before moving on to other posts in the thread.

Mostly you are correct.
But you offer no solutions for the issue. Just like booze you have to have limits and control so it is not abused.

For drugs (hard in particular it has to be zero) and we have to figure out a way to stop it.

As for weed I do not have one. Can't stop morons from being morons other than jail. Even that is a joke in some areas with bribed guards and such.
No solution? Here's the solution: Eradicate humans. Then you'll have no more irrational behavior.

Nothing causes so much trouble as those who believe in the possibility of a perfect world.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:07 AM   #183
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marijuana is no more dangerous than alcohol .
both also unless you really abuse it leaves no lingering affects.
MODERATION is the key.
reefer madness isnt real stop using that as a source
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:09 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Drek View Post

Actually, I specifically spelled out a solution to the issue that is currently working.

Something like weed you just legalize, as its no more harmful than alcohol or tobacco and therefore not worth the government's time beyond regulation of distribution and preventing illegal trafficking and underage purchases.

Everything else you decriminalize (not legalize) at small amounts tied strictly to personal use. Trafficking and large quantity possession is still a felony, but small amounts obviously for personal use are handled administratively. Jail does not fix addiction, rehab does. You said this yourself when talking about colleagues who've cleaned up through rehab. This is where we need to funnel users if the goal is to get them clean and not to feed the penal system with fresh convicts.

Rehab works. Not all the time, but a hell of a lot more often than incarceration. It's also cheaper than incarceration for state and federal governments. So why do we let misconceptions anyone who looks into this can clearly see continue to direct our drug policy?
I have never understood why people are so afraid of taxing weed and drugs. By a wide margin the largest 2 problems associated with drug use are crimes committed to support drug use and organized crime associated with production, transportation and retail. By putting long time addicts on a government program where they will be channeled into rehab or put under observation in return for government sponsored facilities for taking drugs and government dispensaries will save society a ton of money. You knock out the petty crime such as turning tricks, shop lifting, purse snatching, home invasions, muggings aimed at supporting the habit and you reduce your health care costs significantly as you don't get people ODing as often or suffering other health issues from taking tainted drugs and you can provide clean materials to reduce the spread of HIV, HEP-B and HEP-C etc.

By removing a large part of the market you also weaken organized crime and by taking away the weakest segment of drug users you make it much more difficult for gangs to control the market which in turn makes them easier to target.

As for weed, just make it like tobacco, put rules on who can sell it, tax it and put an age limit in place for when you can buy it. Like alcohol and prescription medicine you make it illegal to drive or operate heavy machinery while under the influence.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:56 AM   #185
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You could make the same argument for the prohibition of alcohol.

Or hell, caffeine for that matter, as multiple studies have shown that regularly drinking caffeine can result in reduced motor control precision.

All aspects of work regulate what you can put in your body while working. What you do in your free time is not regulated based on employment.

I'd be just fine with a nurse or surgeon who smokes pot in their free time, same as a surgeon who likes to throw a few beers back watching football on his Sunday off. A surgeon who is a chronic smoker would give me FAR more pause than weed.


Actually, I specifically spelled out a solution to the issue that is currently working.

Something like weed you just legalize, as its no more harmful than alcohol or tobacco and therefore not worth the government's time beyond regulation of distribution and preventing illegal trafficking and underage purchases.

Everything else you decriminalize (not legalize) at small amounts tied strictly to personal use. Trafficking and large quantity possession is still a felony, but small amounts obviously for personal use are handled administratively. Jail does not fix addiction, rehab does. You said this yourself when talking about colleagues who've cleaned up through rehab. This is where we need to funnel users if the goal is to get them clean and not to feed the penal system with fresh convicts.

Rehab works. Not all the time, but a hell of a lot more often than incarceration. It's also cheaper than incarceration for state and federal governments. So why do we let misconceptions anyone who looks into this can clearly see continue to direct our drug policy?
Well said. Portugal is a perfect example of how an education/rehabilitation program could be used instead of incarceration.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:59 AM   #186
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I have never understood why people are so afraid of taxing weed and drugs. By a wide margin the largest 2 problems associated with drug use are crimes committed to support drug use and organized crime associated with production, transportation and retail. By putting long time addicts on a government program where they will be channeled into rehab or put under observation in return for government sponsored facilities for taking drugs and government dispensaries will save society a ton of money. You knock out the petty crime such as turning tricks, shop lifting, purse snatching, home invasions, muggings aimed at supporting the habit and you reduce your health care costs significantly as you don't get people ODing as often or suffering other health issues from taking tainted drugs and you can provide clean materials to reduce the spread of HIV, HEP-B and HEP-C etc.

By removing a large part of the market you also weaken organized crime and by taking away the weakest segment of drug users you make it much more difficult for gangs to control the market which in turn makes them easier to target.

As for weed, just make it like tobacco, put rules on who can sell it, tax it and put an age limit in place for when you can buy it. Like alcohol and prescription medicine you make it illegal to drive or operate heavy machinery while under the influence.

excuse me sir but we dont need your common sense and logic here please get out of here. only reefer madness type hysteria is only allowed in this discussion .
now if you excuse me ........legalizing marijuana will lead to madness nurses and doctors will botch surgeries car crashes will go up 100% school kids will be high in class all the time . cancer rates will go up 900% chaos and anarchy will ensure . civilization as we know it will cease to exist .
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:05 AM   #187
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marijuana is no more dangerous than alcohol .
both also unless you really abuse it leaves no lingering affects.
MODERATION is the key.
reefer madness isnt real stop using that as a source
What crazy **** are you on?
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:21 AM   #188
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What crazy **** are you on?
stop listening to the anti marijuana hype will you .
god some of you people i swear
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:50 AM   #189
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^ Obviously, you didnt get it.

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Old 11-14-2012, 03:11 PM   #190
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again there is nothing wrong with smoking weed as long as it is done in moderation just like beer and not while you are on the job doing something that requires you to be sober and alert ie alcohol , NyQuil, marijuana so again yalls acting like those idiots from the government propaganda movie reefer madness so again my reply is this like it or not
ok not all of you just the uptight citizen brigade folk here!
im all for the NFl saying no because the NFL is well national so they cant make rules for one state skipping another.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:19 PM   #191
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Dan,
Who in the hell are you arguing with? I feel like you are Mock 2.0.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:20 PM   #192
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In a perfect world (complete hypothetical here), hemp would be a vast resource upon which the USA could base a huge part of its industrial base, including energy. Marijuana would be legal, taxed and controlled like other stimulates and things like gun control and marriage and abortion would be a state issue where the feds only step in if someone's constitutional rights are violated.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:31 PM   #193
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Well said. Portugal is a perfect example of how an education/rehabilitation program could be used instead of incarceration.
There are a lot of very good programs even in the U.S. at local levels showing how we can find real solutions to this.

For example, right now in the suburbs of St. Louis heroin is on a strong comeback. A sheriff of one of the outlying suburbs has put in a new policy whereby anyone who calls in an overdose and then stays with the person will 1. not be subject to prosecution themselves and 2. neither will the person overdosing as long as they cooperate with the police.

He's said that you get pretty amazing results in terms of junkies turning in their dealers when you just saved their life from an overdose/tainted hit on that dealer's ****. His town is one of the few suburbs of STL that is actually winning the war on the cheap, low grade heroin flooding the suburbs of the city.

Crazy how treating junkies like the victims they are results in massive gains for all involved, huh?
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:42 PM   #194
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you have been reading the outrageous stuff being said here have you like pro marijuana users would then want their kids to be smoking it or doctors and nurses would be stone out of their minds while at work i cant help it but to
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:43 PM   #195
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i think its right. although its legal in the state, the NFL is an organization, and they have their own rules you need to follow, whether or not its legal in the state.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:03 PM   #196
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you have been reading the outrageous stuff being said here have you like pro marijuana users would then want their kids to be smoking it or doctors and nurses would be stone out of their minds while at work
you clearly have an agenda. Frankly you are not winning it. Posting while under the influence or being stoned is not helping get it across.

I do not care if most doctors or nurses would not do it.

All it takes is for one doctor one time to be slow on the uptake to lose a life.

Now that one instance might be tolerable for you. It is not for most if not all folks that also believe DUI is wrong.

You hit a school bus while being high is something I would not tolerate..

If smoking could be contained to something akin of the old opium dens. Then have a ball. ..
But we all know that some moron will get behind the wheel just like drinking and kill someone. Because they thought it was under control.

PWUI is not cool like your think it is.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:05 PM   #197
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i think its right. although its legal in the state, the NFL is an organization, and they have their own rules you need to follow, whether or not its legal in the state.
It is still against federal law. I'll guess that they will shut the law down in the courts.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:36 PM   #198
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you clearly have an agenda. Frankly you are not winning it. Posting while under the influence or being stoned is not helping get it across.

I do not care if most doctors or nurses would not do it.

All it takes is for one doctor one time to be slow on the uptake to lose a life.

Now that one instance might be tolerable for you. It is not for most if not all folks that also believe DUI is wrong.

You hit a school bus while being high is something I would not tolerate..

If smoking could be contained to something akin of the old opium dens. Then have a ball. ..
But we all know that some moron will get behind the wheel just like drinking and kill someone. Because they thought it was under control.

PWUI is not cool like your think it is.
You act as if these things would happen if it were legalized. And most of what you are talking about would happen with alcohol. I get the sense you've never smoked before.

That one doctor or nurse that is dumb enough to smoke and then go to work is the one that is going to do that whether it is legal or not.

Now I know there may be an instance where someone may smoke and drive. That could happen if it's legal or not legal. With marijuana the odds are much, much less than with alcohol because smokers do not lose all inhabitions and think they can drive. Most smokers don't want to drive. And most of the time when a smoker is in an accident and tested positive, it's 3 days later because it takes it so long to leave the system and was not the cause of the accident.

I smoked every day for 40 years. Never had an accident, in fact only one ticket for driving a unregistered car. Never smoked before or at work. Never neglected my children. Quit 3 years ago when work decided to do random drug tests. No withdrawals, no unstoppable cravings, no big deal. Yep, I'd love to do it again and I will but my job is more important right now.

Oh yeah, old opium dens would be akin to bars. Bars, where someone has to drive home. My home is just fine.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:08 PM   #199
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The bottom line is any activity should carry with an expectation of responsibility. The notion that adults should be expected to behave responsibly and should be held accountable when they do not is too nuanced for the dogmatic to accept. It's easier for them to accept that no one should engage in certain activity so that a small percentage cannot irresponsibly engage in that activity. Simplistic and dogmatic: an easy pill to swallow.


We all know it is possible to irresponsibly use cell phones. It causes car accidents. We wouldn't want a surgeon trying to send off a tweet on their iPhone 5 while performing a triple bypass now would we? A blanket argument against the use of cell phones would carry just as much logical weight as some of the arguments being proffered in this thread.

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Old 11-14-2012, 07:15 PM   #200
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you clearly have an agenda. Frankly you are not winning it. Posting while under the influence or being stoned is not helping get it across.

I do not care if most doctors or nurses would not do it.

All it takes is for one doctor one time to be slow on the uptake to lose a life.

Now that one instance might be tolerable for you. It is not for most if not all folks that also believe DUI is wrong.

You hit a school bus while being high is something I would not tolerate..

If smoking could be contained to something akin of the old opium dens. Then have a ball. ..
But we all know that some moron will get behind the wheel just like drinking and kill someone. Because they thought it was under control.

PWUI is not cool like your think it is.

Yeah, because getting your hands on it now is virtually impossible.

You realize you can call someone who comes to your house with it in most cities, right? It is literally easier to get your hands on right now than cigarettes or alcohol. But yeah, legalizing is going to open the flood gates on doctors and nurses across this country showing up to work blazed out of their minds. You don't live in reality.

And at opium dens. You live in such a bizarro world of ignorance and fear.

Last edited by bowtown; 11-14-2012 at 07:17 PM..
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