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Old 11-11-2012, 03:47 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by doonwise View Post
AND after one of the most complete games I've ever seen the broncos play. Perfection doesn't exist in football and from a team perspective, it doesn't get much better than today's performance.
I'm sorry, but our offensive performance was miles behind what would be needed to call this a "complete game".
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Old 11-11-2012, 03:57 PM   #27
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But we know the offense can play. I was waiting for solid games with defense and special teams. We got that. Our offense will rebound, I'm not worried. We are in the top 5 for points per game. Really.. you are going to whine about our offense?

And flailing away trying to win is stupid. Playing smart because you know your team is better is the way to go, as Fox knows. Frickin' drama queens.
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:38 PM   #28
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No if they had changed the spot of the ball that means we would have won te challenge - whether it resulted in a first down or not.
No, you lose that challenge if its not a first down. I gaurantee you that's how that works.

You can only challenge forward progress with respect to a first down. If forward progress does not result in a first down on the challenge, you lose the challenge (even if they move the ball) and lose your time out. The timeout would not have been important but the loss of the challenge may have been.

edit: Rule 3, Section 9, Part C.5

http://static.nfl.com/static/content...ule%20Book.pdf
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Old 11-11-2012, 05:31 PM   #29
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Give me a break! Fox is a good coach who was dealt with some tough circumstances in Carolina. I honestly believe his conservatism plus Peyton and Elway will equal a couple Super Bowls before its all said and done.
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Old 11-11-2012, 05:49 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Rock Chalk View Post
No, you lose that challenge if its not a first down. I gaurantee you that's how that works.

You can only challenge forward progress with respect to a first down. If forward progress does not result in a first down on the challenge, you lose the challenge (even if they move the ball) and lose your time out. The timeout would not have been important but the loss of the challenge may have been.

edit: Rule 3, Section 9, Part C.5

http://static.nfl.com/static/content...ule%20Book.pdf
You reference the rule for fair catches.

Rule 15, sec 9, A3 says you can challenge whether a runner is in or out of bounds regardless of first down marker.
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Old 11-11-2012, 05:54 PM   #31
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No, you lose that challenge if its not a first down. I gaurantee you that's how that works.

You can only challenge forward progress with respect to a first down. If forward progress does not result in a first down on the challenge, you lose the challenge (even if they move the ball) and lose your time out. The timeout would not have been important but the loss of the challenge may have been.

edit: Rule 3, Section 9, Part C.5

http://static.nfl.com/static/content...ule%20Book.pdf
Thanks for this. It is how I thought it was handled, but wasn't 100% sure. I think a challenge would have been a good risk to use in that case. It would have resulted in respotting the ball, and a possible first down. There was a very good angle showing the ball conclusively, the tip of the ball right against the 24 yardline- the yardline needed for a first down. If the resulting spot would have been short, it would not have been short by more than 2 inches. They would have been in good position to go for it. Not sure that is what Fox wants though, knowing how conservative he likes to be.


Edit: I clicked the Rock Chalk's attachment of the NFL rules, and the section referenced in his post has nothing to do with forward progress in relation to 1st down. I looked closely in the section about reviewable plays, and there is no section regarding rules about reviewing forward progress in relation to a first down, EXCEPT for this NOTE concerning non-reviewable plays:

(Copied and pasted)

Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
1. Status of the clock
2. Proper down
3. Penalty administration
4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
6. Recovery of a loose ball that does not involve a boundary line or the end zone.
7. Field-goal or Try attempts that cross above either upright without touching anything. 8. Inadvertent Whistle


The part I bolded above (#5) suggest that forward progress is NOT reviewable on plays that don't involve first downs. So this does suggest that forward progress IS reviewable on plays involving first downs (just as most people thought), although I am unable to find any specifics regarding if a review results in a re-spot of the ball HAS to result in a first down in order for having the challenge to be considered won, and thus not losing the challenge and a timeout.

Last edited by Vine; 11-11-2012 at 06:09 PM..
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:00 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by LRtagger View Post
You reference the rule for fair catches.

Rule 15, sec 9, A3 says you can challenge whether a runner is in or out of bounds regardless of first down marker.
They said Denver would lose the challenge on TV but, would gain the yards.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:04 PM   #33
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They said Denver would lose the challenge on TV but, would gain the yards.
Could be but if so it's ****ing retarded. So if you have an 8 yard run on first down and the ball is spotted as a 5 yard gain you can't challenge that without losing a timeout?
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:05 PM   #34
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You reference the rule for fair catches.

Rule 15, sec 9, A3 says you can challenge whether a runner is in or out of bounds regardless of first down marker.
Its on Page 5 of that handbook, with the header of the page being Rule 15, Section 9

6. Forward Progress with respect to a first down (under Instant Replay)
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:06 PM   #35
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Could be but if so it's ****ing retarded. So if you have an 8 yard run on first down and the ball is spotted as a 5 yard gain you can't challenge that without losing a timeout?
No, you cannot challenge the spot of the ball unless it is debatable whether it is a first down.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:12 PM   #36
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Could be but if so it's ****ing retarded. So if you have an 8 yard run on first down and the ball is spotted as a 5 yard gain you can't challenge that without losing a timeout?
I tend to agree, but this is a situation of where do you draw the line? You could have 20 reviews on spots during every NFL game, because referees commonly get spots wrong by 1/2 yard throughout games.

Maybe draw the line at 1 FULL YARD mis spot to avoid losing challenge and timeout. This would discourage teams from challenging every minor bad spot by referees.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:13 PM   #37
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Its on Page 5 of that handbook, with the header of the page being Rule 15, Section 9

6. Forward Progress with respect to a first down (under Instant Replay)
That is actually on page 90
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:15 PM   #38
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That is actually on page 90
Weird, when I looked last time it said page 5. You are right though.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:20 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Vine View Post
I tend to agree, but this is a situation of where do you draw the line? You could have 20 reviews on spots during every NFL game, because referees commonly get spots wrong by 1/2 yard throughout games.

Maybe draw the line at 1 FULL YARD mis spot to avoid losing challenge and timeout. This would discourage teams from challenging every minor bad spot by referees.
You have a point. But they do limit each team to two challenges (3 max). That being the case the coaches should be able to challenge whatever the **** they want
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:22 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Rock Chalk View Post
No, you cannot challenge the spot of the ball unless it is debatable whether it is a first down.
You could argue that he wouldn't have been challenging the spot of the ball but instead challenging whether the runner was out of bounds where the ref spotted the ball.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:43 PM   #41
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Keep in mind Fox has a defense that allowed 0 for 12 third down conversions
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:03 PM   #42
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Pick 6, fumble recovery for td, sack and they get long fg try, hail mary td for newton, pi on hail mary vs possible long fg for Denver. Too much risk vs what you could get out of going for it.
Terrible logic. You could have that view of every single play in the game. Cmon man get real. You don't throw the ball. You challenge the spot (it was close enough to 1st down marker it should be allowed), get it to 4th and 1 and you run it. If you don't make it, probably leaves 3 to 4 seconds on the clock. Yeah, about a 1-500 chance Carolina would get a TD on that one play. On the other hand, we have a very good chance at getting points.

I betcha more then half the guy saying it was smart to punt are the same guys that said it was ok to have Leonard returning all punts and kicks just because they felt safe he wouldn't blow it, but knowing he didn't have any shot for a big play.

It's not Madden, I get that. But the reward vs risk was big time in Broncos favor. Understand that.

Last edited by ZONA; 11-11-2012 at 07:07 PM..
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:08 PM   #43
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This. The coach who rebuilt this team into what it is wins back to back road games, this one going away, and people are starting threads calling him a dumb ass and p***Y.
Reminds me of 2005, we're winning games and people were pissing and moaning on here that season.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:08 PM   #44
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Terrible logic. You could have that view of every single play in the game. Cmon man get real. You don't throw the ball. You challenge the spot, get it to 4th and 1 and you run it. If you don't make it, probably leaves 3 to 4 seconds on the clock. Yeah, about a 1-500 chance Carolina would get a TD on that one play. On the other hand, we have a very good chance at getting points.

I betcha more then half the guy saying it was smart to punt are the same guys that said it was ok to have Leonard returning all punts and kicks just because they felt safe he wouldn't blow it, but knowing he didn't have any shot for a big play.

It's not Madden, I get that. But the reward vs risk was big time in Broncos favor. Understand that.
So throw away a challenge to get another yard. You don't seem to understand that even if Denver WON that challenge to get the yard they LOSE the challenge.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:16 PM   #45
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So throw away a challenge to get another yard. You don't seem to understand that even if Denver WON that challenge to get the yard they LOSE the challenge.
I'm not saying the "challenge" would have been needed. If he couldn't that's fine. It was 4th and 2. Still would not have changed things.

Honestly, I would much rather go for it, not get it, then allow my set defense to go out there and defend a single attempt at a 60 hail mary pass then to defend a punt return. I think if you guys look at stats, I betcha there the odds are better at a punt being returned for a TD then a hail marry pass.

Just my opinion though. I'm allowed.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:21 PM   #46
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I'm not saying the "challenge" would have been needed. If he couldn't that's fine. It was 4th and 2. Still would not have changed things.

Honestly, I would much rather go for it, not get it, then allow my set defense to go out there and defend a single attempt at a 60 hail mary pass then to defend a punt return. I think if you guys look at stats, I betcha there the odds are better at a punt being returned for a TD then a hail marry pass.

Just my opinion though. I'm allowed.
You keep saying 4 and 1. If I remember correctly it was 4 and 10 from Carolina 49. As I pointed out there was a lot that could go wrong to risk a chance at a long fg. It's not terrible logic its playing the game right in a game we were dominating. You don't want to give other team life especially when you get ball back after the half. Kudos to Fox for finally taking ball in second half vs opening kickoff.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:24 PM   #47
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You keep saying 4 and 1. If I remember correctly it was 4 and 10 from Carolina 49. As I pointed out there was a lot that could go wrong to risk a chance at a long fg. It's not terrible logic its playing the game right in a game we were dominating. You don't want to give other team life especially when you get ball back after the half. Kudos to Fox for finally taking ball in second half vs opening kickoff.
, I didn't have anything to drink today but I do have a pretty good hangover from yesterday. But I don't think it was 4th and 10. The Bronco player went out of bounds just short of the 1st down marker. I'm pretty sure it was like 4th and 2, should have been 4th and 1 if the ref had any eyes.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:14 PM   #48
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Actually it would have been 4th and <1 foot if the ref had eyes. That was a terrible spot.
Then you could let Manning at least attempt to draw them off with a hard count, and if they didn't snap it you give up 5 yards with almost no time left and punt then..

Or let Prater try a really long one.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:50 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by DENVERDUI55 View Post
You keep saying 4 and 1. If I remember correctly it was 4 and 10 from Carolina 49. As I pointed out there was a lot that could go wrong to risk a chance at a long fg. It's not terrible logic its playing the game right in a game we were dominating. You don't want to give other team life especially when you get ball back after the half. Kudos to Fox for finally taking ball in second half vs opening kickoff.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:55 PM   #50
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We are

Winning
We are playing well on ALL three phases
causing turnovers and scoring
Team plays hard for him

Things we have rarly done since SB years.

TY John Fox

All coaches do things you wish they wouldn't do but, gosh it wasn't that big of deal anyways.

Last edited by NFLBRONCO; 11-12-2012 at 12:13 AM..
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