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Old 11-07-2012, 09:12 AM   #601
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And they did so by turning out 10 million fewer people than last time.

Interesting method of "support"

Fewer votes than McCain is now a super-mandate. You were saying something about spin?
I don't think anyone sees this election as a mandate.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:13 AM   #602
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If they were sick of extremists, they would not have elected a man who thinks cutting 1% off federal spending several years in the future is "draconian" and regards trillion dollar plus deficits as a political problem, not an economic problem.

That said, I wish the Republicans had lost the house tonight too. America is going over the cliff and it's very important that Americans know who is to blame. It's far better to have a coherent opposition party than for everyone to share responsibility for what is coming.

In any event, now we are Greece. And we have no German sugar daddy to bail us out. Hold onto your hats.

So go Broncos! If we are going to have to live thru the endgame of the modern progressive state, at least the Broncos could win one more Superbowl.
Huge drama queen.

Greece? You clearly know nothing about the eurocrisis
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:15 AM   #603
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Huge drama queen.

Greece? You clearly know nothing about the eurocrisis
To be fair, he got that part from his "source".
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:17 AM   #604
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This election was hardly and indictment of the GOP. I think overwhelmingly the populace felt like Obama inheritted at least some of this and Romney was demonized enough that they felt they will give what they know more time. The fact that many people voted a split ticket is clear on this. If Dems won across the board, that would be one thing. They didn't. And nothing substantively changed.
Well, i think its both. You hit on something when you said they voted a split ticket, they wanted to preserve some sort of balance, but its no secret that the right has moved VERY FAR to the right, and i dont think the nation has much desire for that.

I doubt a ton changes, it doesnt look like republicans in congress are any more willing to make deals than they were last night, but hopefully we can get something done.

But this idea that America has suddenly fallen off a cliff, when ummm, all we've been doing is growing (not at a great rate, but it hasnt been getting worse) is absurd. We aren't greece, far from it. I dont know where these guys get this stuff from
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:18 AM   #605
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Not to mention "the modern progressive state" we live in still looks like a republican haven to me. The crazies in the republican party shifted the entire nation to the right with them.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:18 AM   #606
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Jesus Christ, drama queen.

Or you could contact your reps and let them know that working with the (now two-term) President won't be the end of the ****ing world as we know it, and maybe now that they don't have that be-all end-all goal of denying Obama a second term they should, you know, WORK FOR THE ****ING COUNTRY INSTEAD OF THEIR ****ING SELVES.

But sure. Giving up and b****ing about the end of days seems like a much easier proposition.
The progressive movement will have to be allowed to destroy itself before things can get better. Bipartisan cover for that process only confuses things. Conservatives have no power to stop what is coming. America firmly rejected smaller, limited government as an option last night. That's the big picture of this election. Small government advocates should not participate in shaping the particulars of how the endgame plays out--that only confuses what is going on.

End of days? No. Endgame of the modern progressive state? Yes. We ARE Greece now. Except without a German sugar daddy to bail us out.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:21 AM   #607
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The progressive movement will have to be allowed to destroy itself before things can get better. Bipartisan cover for that process only confuses things. Conservatives have no power to stop what is coming. America firmly rejected smaller, limited government as an option last night. That's the big picture of this election. Small government advocates should not participate in shaping the particulars of how the endgame plays out--that only confuses what is going on.

End of days? No. Endgame of the modern progressive state? Yes. We ARE Greece now. Except without a German sugar daddy to bail us out.
YOU ARE ABSURD!

First off, we are not Greece. Not even close. Plus, one of greece's major problems was that it couldn't devalue its currency during its crisis because they were on the Euro. We'll never have that problem and American bonds are still the best bet around. We also seem to have pretty much zero inflation threat at this point.

Second, for a "progressive" state, we arent all that progressive. At all. Our stimulus was small (and it did exactly what economists said it would...great growth, but growth too slow) and the healthcare bill you guys love to b**** about didnt even involve any sort of public option.

You guys have created this boogeyman that simply doesnt exist. And now youll b**** about it and probably start the "obama is taking our guns" **** again
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:21 AM   #608
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And they did so by turning out 10 million fewer people than last time.

Interesting method of "support"

Fewer votes than McCain is now a super-mandate. You were saying something about spin?
For all of our sakes I hope and pray the GOP isn't in as much denial as you, and many of its punditry, clearly are. The party needs to moderate and support a platform that these growing demographics can support. And nobody said anything about a "super-mandate".
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:24 AM   #609
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You guys have created this boogeyman that simply doesnt exist.
^ This is pretty much it. The caricature of Obama that has been created, and believed by many, doesn't remotely match up with reality.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:31 AM   #610
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I don't think anyone sees this election as a mandate.
You're right, baja. All this election says is that the challenger failed to convince America why he should replace the sitting president...
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:32 AM   #611
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For all of our sakes I hope and pray the GOP isn't in as much denial as you, and many of its punditry, clearly are.
They are, and there's no talk of being more moderate or reaching over the aisle to get things done. It's the exact opposite, house leaders have came out immediately last night and said tax increases are a nonstarter. So right there nobody is going to budge on it. Second thing is, a lot of Republicans demonized and spat on Romney last night calling him out for his religion, being a liberal from Massachusetts etc. They threw him overboard and now your going to see the far right move in and take over.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:39 AM   #612
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Well, i think its both. You hit on something when you said they voted a split ticket, they wanted to preserve some sort of balance, but its no secret that the right has moved VERY FAR to the right, and i dont think the nation has much desire for that.

I doubt a ton changes, it doesnt look like republicans in congress are any more willing to make deals than they were last night, but hopefully we can get something done.

But this idea that America has suddenly fallen off a cliff, when ummm, all we've been doing is growing (not at a great rate, but it hasnt been getting worse) is absurd. We aren't greece, far from it. I dont know where these guys get this stuff from
I think it is quite obvious that the republican primaries with the emergence of the tea-party movement have moved sharply to the right. There are a lot of far right activists with anti-federalist views who vote and donate to the primaries, as we saw with Romney and with Mccain before him this forces candidates to move far right during primaries only to later moderate their position.

Mccain was hit by this and Romney was certainly hit by this, he said one thing to get through primaries and then moderated his stance significantly to appeal to voters at large, especially the undecided voters.

There is a shift in the nation, women and young people are voting in greater numbers, minorities are voting in greater numbers and those votes heavily favour moderate and federalist views - if the republicans can not reign in the far right or mobilise evangelicals the way Rove and Bush did they will not be able to defeat a strong democratic candidate in 2016.

It has always confused me how partisan the American political scene is, there is no room for real politics, no room for compromise, no room for efficiency, it is all about partisanism and all about blame. It has gotten to a point where making a bad decision that can be blamed on the other party is better than making a good decision - that is the demise of American politics in my view.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:44 AM   #613
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I think it is quite obvious that the republican primaries with the emergence of the tea-party movement have moved sharply to the right. There are a lot of far right activists with anti-federalist views who vote and donate to the primaries, as we saw with Romney and with Mccain before him this forces candidates to move far right during primaries only to later moderate their position.

Mccain was hit by this and Romney was certainly hit by this, he said one thing to get through primaries and then moderated his stance significantly to appeal to voters at large, especially the undecided voters.

There is a shift in the nation, women and young people are voting in greater numbers, minorities are voting in greater numbers and those votes heavily favour moderate and federalist views - if the republicans can not reign in the far right or mobilise evangelicals the way Rove and Bush did they will not be able to defeat a strong democratic candidate in 2016.

It has always confused me how partisan the American political scene is, there is no room for real politics, no room for compromise, no room for efficiency, it is all about partisanism and all about blame. It has gotten to a point where making a bad decision that can be blamed on the other party is better than making a good decision - that is the demise of American politics in my view.
+1 agreed. Its gotten to the point where there is active rooting against parties, which is no good for anyone.

But I have a question for you, personally. How did you manage to grow up and somehow survive your horrible progressive state?? I mean, according to some of the people above, we are doomed because we haven't embraced a far right agenda, and instead will move in a direction that is still far right to much of what is in Europe. So growing up must have been absolute hell for you, right?
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:45 AM   #614
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They are, and there's no talk of being more moderate or reaching over the aisle to get things done. It's the exact opposite, house leaders have came out immediately last night and said tax increases are a nonstarter. So right there nobody is going to budge on it. Second thing is, a lot of Republicans demonized and spat on Romney last night calling him out for his religion, being a liberal from Massachusetts etc. They threw him overboard and now your going to see the far right move in and take over.
I disagree. Look at what happened in the Senate race in Missouri and Indiana. Akin talks his **** about "legitimate rape" and gets trounced in a very red state. The tea party crazies come out to give the republican nomination to Mourdock in Indiana and essentially surrender a sure GOP senate seat to the democrats. I really think the more moderate 80% of the GOP is starting to realize that aligning themselves with the far right is costing them quite a bit. I sincerely hope that the GOP can move towards the ideological center. Otherwise, the Dems may have a strangle hold on the future of this country.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:48 AM   #615
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I disagree. Look at what happened in the Senate race in Missouri and Indiana. Akin talks his **** about "legitimate rape" and gets trounced in a very red state. The tea party crazies come out to give the republican nomination to Mourdock in Indiana and essentially surrender a sure GOP senate seat to the democrats. I really think the more moderate 80% of the GOP is starting to realize that aligning themselves with the far right is costing them quite a bit. I sincerely hope that the GOP can move towards the ideological center. Otherwise, the Dems may have a strangle hold on the future of this country.

Republicans need to become more libertarian in their views or they will not win another national election.

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Old 11-07-2012, 09:51 AM   #616
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For all of our sakes I hope and pray the GOP isn't in as much denial as you, and many of its punditry, clearly are. The party needs to moderate and support a platform that these growing demographics can support. And nobody said anything about a "super-mandate".
What serious candidate was more "moderate" than McCain was in 2008?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=18664285

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Conservatives were never wild over McCain, and that goes back to his battles with George W. Bush in the 2000 primaries, his scathing criticism ("agents of intolerance") aimed at Christian conservative leaders, and his championing of overhauling the campaign finance system. McCain also voted against the Bush tax cuts in 2001 and 2003 (although now he says he wants to make them permanent), and he opposed amending the Constitution to prohibit same-sex marriage.
It's a fools' gold game the left likes to play. I remember many of the "independent" people I knew used to talk about (during the Bush years) about how they wished McCain had won the nomination in 2000, so then they could've supported him. Then McCain won, and they had all sorts of excuses why they now wouldn't support him. Even though he hadn't fundamentally changed on anything.

Romney had the same essential base problem as McCain because of his governing years in Mass. I didn't hold it against him so much because I'm mostly pragmatic and I understood that being governor of Massachusetts is a different game than say Florida. But in the end, Romney still lost because his base shrunk. I'm not 100% sure why. But they didn't switch sides. They just didn't vote. That much can't be argued.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:56 AM   #617
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What serious candidate was more "moderate" than McCain was in 2008?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=18664285



It's a fools' gold game the left likes to play. I remember many of the "independent" people I knew used to talk about (during the Bush years) about how they wished McCain had won the nomination in 2000, so then they could've supported him. Then McCain won, and they had all sorts of excuses why they now wouldn't support him. Even though he hadn't fundamentally changed on anything.

Romney had the same essential base problem as McCain because of his governing years in Mass. I didn't hold it against him so much because I'm mostly pragmatic and I understood that being governor of Massachusetts is a different game than say Florida. But in the end, Romney still lost because his base shrunk. I'm not 100% sure why. But they didn't switch sides. They just didn't vote. That much can't be argued.
Why wasnt the base incredibly supportive of Romney? I think the answer is simple: He's a ****ty candidate.
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:03 AM   #618
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Why wasnt the base incredibly supportive of Romney? I think the answer is simple: He's a ****ty candidate.
Well that's a little broad. But there's some truth to it. He struggled to make a personal connection to people, which is very important to some.

But I think it was that with a combination of things. For some people his record (as a moderate) was a problem. For others the inconsistency as he had to tack right from his record was a problem. Then another small part is the prom king electorate factor. He wasn't as 'fun' to support as the other guy.

And in an election this close, many little problems can make a big problem. At the end of the day I think maybe having a genuine conservative or a genuine moderate is preferable to having an opportunist that switches from one to the other. But my thinking on that keeps evolving.
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:07 AM   #619
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I disagree. Look at what happened in the Senate race in Missouri and Indiana. Akin talks his **** about "legitimate rape" and gets trounced in a very red state. The tea party crazies come out to give the republican nomination to Mourdock in Indiana and essentially surrender a sure GOP senate seat to the democrats. I really think the more moderate 80% of the GOP is starting to realize that aligning themselves with the far right is costing them quite a bit. I sincerely hope that the GOP can move towards the ideological center. Otherwise, the Dems may have a strangle hold on the future of this country.
I don't think those losses will have an impact,while I agree last night showed that a majority of Americans don't vote for those candidates, the far right will ignore it and focus on the fact that Romney blew it.
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:15 AM   #620
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On the biggest political story of the year, the conservative media just got its ass handed to it by the mainstream media. And movement conservatives, who believe the MSM is more biased and less rigorous than their alternatives, have no way to explain how their trusted outlets got it wrong, while the New York Times got it right. Hint. The Times hired the most rigorous forecaster it could find.

It ought to be an eye-opening moment.

But I expect that it'll be quickly forgotten, that none of the conservatives who touted a polling conspiracy will be discredited, and that the right will continue to operate at an information disadvantage. After all, it's not like they'll trust the analysis of a non-conservative like me more than the numerous fellow conservatives who constantly tell them things that turn out not to be true.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...d-file/264855/
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:15 AM   #621
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:15 AM   #622
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Why wasnt the base incredibly supportive of Romney? I think the answer is simple: He's a ****ty candidate.
I think the Republicans don't have a solid grasp on what their base is. Many in the Republican camp have acknowledged that the evangelical and tea party extremists have pulled them so far to the right on social issues that it makes them a harder political party to identify with for the average Joe America.
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:16 AM   #623
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This election was hardly and indictment of the GOP. I think overwhelmingly the populace felt like Obama inheritted at least some of this and Romney was demonized enough that they felt they will give what they know more time. The fact that many people voted a split ticket is clear on this. If Dems won across the board, that would be one thing. They didn't. And nothing substantively changed.
It was the voters thinking that Obama had inherited this and hadn't done allowed us to fall flat on our faces which is where we were headed. Romney was demonized for the party which people associate with the clusterfuc Bush left this country in.

But it was also the entire Republican party with their archaic side remarks and Romney saying one thing and when it slapped him in the face, flip flopping. Plus the fact still wondering what/how the hell Romney was going to do this. He wishy washed on that. And what he did reveal didn't wash.

http://news.msn.com/politics/analysi...-the-economy-2
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:22 AM   #624
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I think the Republicans don't have a solid grasp on what their base is. Many in the Republican camp have acknowledged that the evangelical and tea party extremists have pulled them so far to the right on social issues that it makes them a harder political party to identify with for the average Joe America.
They havent just moved their party to the right, they've moved the whole government to the right. Because of them, dems don't start the negotiation with a left wing plan that will eventually lead to the middle. They start in the middle with hopes of getting something center-right
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:24 AM   #625
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Well that's a little broad. But there's some truth to it. He struggled to make a personal connection to people, which is very important to some.

But I think it was that with a combination of things. For some people his record (as a moderate) was a problem. For others the inconsistency as he had to tack right from his record was a problem. Then another small part is the prom king electorate factor. He wasn't as 'fun' to support as the other guy.

And in an election this close, many little problems can make a big problem. At the end of the day I think maybe having a genuine conservative or a genuine moderate is preferable to having an opportunist that switches from one to the other. But my thinking on that keeps evolving.
I definitely think his lack of genuine anything certainly hurt him. He was way too all over the place and didnt have a concrete platform. People didnt know what they were voting for.
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