Return of the big nickel

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by DENVERDUI55

Who cares on the Graham TD. Game was over and it is easy for a team to lose concentration. I have no problem with mental errors up 27 pts with 4 minutes left and our backup QB in. I'll give a pass holding one of the top QB's in the league to zero big deep plays and 14 pts.

Not a mental error. A situational awareness error.

[ZONA]

Originally Posted by DENVERDUI55

Who cares on the Graham TD. Game was over and it is easy for a team to lose concentration. I have no problem with mental errors up 27 pts with 4 minutes left and our backup QB in. I'll give a pass holding one of the top QB's in the league to zero big deep plays and 14 pts.

We are not indicating he only did this on 1 play. We're talking about the entire season so far, that was just a play that showcased our talking point. We can discuss theory of safety play all day long but the fact is, the better cover safeties in the league have a good feel for where the ball is going to go and they position themselves to make a play on the ball (for the most part, not always, nobody could be 100% in the right position every time). I've watched Ed Reed in detail many times and this is what I see him do. Call it cheating on a play or whatever, but he simply doesn't just always play it safe and sit there and react only once the ball is in the air, only to get there to help or make the tackle once the ball has been caught. The purpose of a safety is not ONLY to be the last safety valve to save a possible TD, but to help prevent the catch in the first place. If they never tried to make plays to stop the catch, and to only assist in the tackle once the ball has been caught, you might as well just go ahead and call that a prevent defense.

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Not a mental error. A situational awareness error.

Actually, it was both in that situation. Not adjusting situationally is a major mental error for a safety and he gave up a TD because of it.

That has been my major issue with him all year. He can not adjust situationally and that is a Major part of playing safety in the NFL. Overall, they actually stayed away form him last night. Personally, it looked like JDR schemed his best players towards their best players and rolled the dice. It worked last night and even when they did succeed, it was largely due to a blown coverage or other DEN error and not them just picking us apart.

[DENVERDUI55]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Not a mental error. A situational awareness error.

That is same thing in most cases.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

Actually, it was both in that situation. Not adjusting situationally is a major mental error for a safety and he gave up a TD because of it.

That has been my major issue with him all year. He can not adjust situationally and that is a Major part of playing safety in the NFL. Overall, they actually stayed away form him last night. Personally, it looked like JDR schemed his best players towards their best players and rolled the dice. It worked last night and even when they did succeed, it was largely due to a blown coverage or other DEN error and not them just picking us apart.

You can't call it both and then completely agree with me!

Yes a situational error is a mental error, we get it.

Rahim's been fine. You've been WAY too hard on him, blaming all of Mike Adams' woes on him as well.

[SeedReaver]

Could our new big nickel personnel help us beat the Pats if we meet them in the playoffs? Why did the Broncos defense look so piss poor against the Pats and overall look decent in every other game?

[DBroncos4life]

Originally Posted by SeedReaver

Could our new big nickel personnel help us beat the Pats if we meet them in the playoffs? Why did the Broncos defense look so piss poor against the Pats and overall look decent in every other game?

Joe Mays is that bad.

[Action]

Originally Posted by ScottXray

Trevathan had Sproles and totally whiffed ( got faked out of his socks) by his inside move, which gave him the free release. Moore then failed to tackle but the play was not Moores fault, so much as Trevathans. Sproles is hard to tackle in the open field, and I don't blame Moore for not making ONE play.

That was not Rahim Moore --> That was Mike Adams... I'm not sure how people make these type of mistakes every week thinking every single **** up is Moore when the numbers are the biggest things on their jerseys.

At the snap - Moore is lined up on the OPPOSITE side of Sproles.



The missed tackle - Is #20 not obvious?



To be fair, Sproles does **** to everyone including your best safeties in the league.

[ZONA]

Originally Posted by DBroncos4life

Joe Mays is that bad.

That, and once again, our offense had not been efficient enough to start the game and there was that usual "hole" we had dug. We did start to comeback though in that game as well. Which is why I've said in another post the 2 keys for Denver this year will be defense on 3rd down and offense scoring early.

[phibacka31]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

You can't call it both and then completely agree with me!

Yes a situational error is a mental error, we get it.

Rahim's been fine. You've been WAY too hard on him, blaming all of Mike Adams' woes on him as well.

THIS TIMES 10...

And I'm not talking about MEd, but most of the posters on the board that just rag on him when in reality 90% of the time it should be Adams they are blaming...

I've actually felt like Rahim has made some serious strides and makes me excite to see him into next year and beyond.

[Action]

Originally Posted by ZONA

We are not indicating he only did this on 1 play. We're talking about the entire season so far, that was just a play that showcased our talking point. We can discuss theory of safety play all day long but the fact is, the better cover safeties in the league have a good feel for where the ball is going to go and they position themselves to make a play on the ball (for the most part, not always, nobody could be 100% in the right position every time). I've watched Ed Reed in detail many times and this is what I see him do. Call it cheating on a play or whatever, but he simply doesn't just always play it safe and sit there and react only once the ball is in the air, only to get there to help or make the tackle once the ball has been caught. The purpose of a safety is not ONLY to be the last safety valve to save a possible TD, but to help prevent the catch in the first place. If they never tried to make plays to stop the catch, and to only assist in the tackle once the ball has been caught, you might as well just go ahead and call that a prevent defense.

Ed Reed is going down as one of the best safeties of all time... there is a reason he's Ed Reed. You can't simply say, if you're not playing as good as Ed Reed, then you're just not very good.

This is Rahim Moore's 2nd year in a new system... player development, some of you people need to learn what this means.

While I do agree - Moore needs to be more aggressive in the passing game... I'm sure coaching will address that and I don't think the fine he received this year helped him much (an unfair fine at that).

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by SeedReaver

Could our new big nickel personnel help us beat the Pats if we meet them in the playoffs? Why did the Broncos defense look so piss poor against the Pats and overall look decent in every other game?

Mays was benched after that game...should tell you everything you need to know.

On the thread subject...Moore has ZERO missed tackles this season, and is our best Safety by far.

[broncogary]

Originally Posted by SeedReaver

Could our new big nickel personnel help us beat the Pats if we meet them in the playoffs? Why did the Broncos defense look so piss poor against the Pats and overall look decent in every other game?

We can't cover good tight ends over the middle. Luckily Graham was limited by injury.

[swaiy]

Poor Moore. You guys are getting a little ridiculous lol.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

Leonard has been outstanding at safety, its time to pull a joe mays and bench Adams. Leonard makes that big nickle defense work on the back end.

Also, they have run the big nickle against almost every team this year. Just not as much as they were able to last night because they were playing with the lead and NO was not trying to run the ball at all.

NO tried to run the ball in the 2nd half for a couple of series. I figure they were trying to get the LB's out of the deeper drops.

[extralife]

without Porter, our CB depth is suspect. add in a TE like Graham and the big nickel wasn't much of a surprise.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by Rock Chalk

This.

Why does everyone forget about Sam Brandon? We owned tight ends when we had that guy.

One of the most under-rated broncos I can think of.

Brandon had 12 starts, one INT, 13 PD's, 2 FF's, and 101 total tackles in his entire career. Where did this myth he was a badass get started?

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Cito Pelon

Brandon had 12 starts, one INT, 13 PD's, 2 FF's, and 101 total tackles in his entire career. Where did this myth he was a badass get started?

Right there.

[Lestat]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

Carter had microfracture surgery, I think. That puts his career in doubt, unfortunately.

the younger you are when you have it the better. especially if you get it earlier instead of as a last resort when the knee is on it's last leg in terms of a playing career.

if he was 35-40 he'd be screwed as the growth is severely slowed. under 30 is when the surgery works best.

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

You can't call it both and then completely agree with me!

Yes a situational error is a mental error, we get it.

Rahim's been fine. You've been WAY too hard on him, blaming all of Mike Adams' woes on him as well.

No, I have called out Adams as our worst safety from the beginning. I also think Leonard should play over Adams and let Moore keep getting reps. Moore is young and has the Physical tools to improve. He needs as many reps as possible and needs to work his ass off in the film room. Its the only way for him to get better. Adams is a journeyman and not as good as Leonard right now IMHO from watching film.

What has bothered me is I just saw all these posts saying how much Moore has improved this year because of his tackling and his coverage. He has made some tackles, just no relevant ones and his coverage is old school don't get beat deep, but also do not learn to attack route combinations in your coverage correctly and situationally. Moore is a long way from being a good safety right now. He is still biding his time learning on the job. He is just a little slow on the uptake for me, especially with all the false praise for his performances to date.

This still kills me about young NFL safeties in general. The guys who I have seen do this very well at the college level can not adapt to the nuances of the pro game and all the different schemes and permutations of the route combinations. Guys who are mentally competent in college get blown away with the responsibility at the next level. You have to have all the tools to play safety in todays NFL, and that is real tough skill set with all the passing offenses out there. The young guys like Earl Thomas and Eric Berry have it and can read and make plays already. Not many other safeties, outside of Nate Allen, have come out recently and made a quick difference for teams.

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by Cito Pelon

Brandon had 12 starts, one INT, 13 PD's, 2 FF's, and 101 total tackles in his entire career. Where did this myth he was a badass get started?

He also kept Gates and Gonzalez from having decent games against DEN and DEN was the number one team in the NFL against TE's those 2 years he manned the Big Nickle spot. That is why people think highly of him. He took away the huge TE mismatch in the passing game and was also decent in the run game against 11 Personnel.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

No, I have called out Adams as our worst safety from the beginning. I also think Leonard should play over Adams and let Moore keep getting reps. Moore is young and has the Physical tools to improve. He needs as many reps as possible and needs to work his ass off in the film room. Its the only way for him to get better. Adams is a journeyman and not as good as Leonard right now IMHO from watching film.

What has bothered me is I just saw all these posts saying how much Moore has improved this year because of his tackling and his coverage. He has made some tackles, just no relevant ones and his coverage is old school don't get beat deep, but also do not learn to attack route combinations in your coverage correctly and situationally. Moore is a long way from being a good safety right now. He is still biding his time learning on the job. He is just a little slow on the uptake for me, especially with all the false praise for his performances to date.

This still kills me about young NFL safeties in general. The guys who I have seen do this very well at the college level can not adapt to the nuances of the pro game and all the different schemes and permutations of the route combinations. Guys who are mentally competent in college get blown away with the responsibility at the next level. You have to have all the tools to play safety in todays NFL, and that is real tough skill set with all the passing offenses out there. The young guys like Earl Thomas and Eric Berry have it and can read and make plays already. Not many other safeties, outside of Nate Allen, have come out recently and made a quick difference for teams.

This is insane! When it's a single deep safety, it's almost always him. The majority of his tackles are stopping 6 (and with 31 solo--second on the team, btw--that's a lot of points)!

You can see the tangible improvement statistically as well! We've long been a team plagued by runs of 20+... even last year playing small-ball we were still 21st in the league.

This year we're 8th! Through 7 games we've allowed only 4 runs of 20+ and ZERO of 40+.

Moore isn't as talented as Earl Thomas or Eric Berry... but he also isn't getting schemed into the same plays as them either.

[Rock Chalk]

Originally Posted by Cito Pelon

Brandon had 12 starts, one INT, 13 PD's, 2 FF's, and 101 total tackles in his entire career. Where did this myth he was a badass get started?

*shakes head*

Do you even watch football?

Go look at the premier TE matchups when Sam was our Big Nickle guy. Go see how well they did against us when Sam played.

You know why his stats were low (nevermind that 13 PDs is pretty ****ing awesome for a safety)? Because his coverage was so god damn good no one threw at him.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

Carter had microfracture surgery, I think. That puts his career in doubt, unfortunately.

that is how I saw it.. even IF he returns it is a matter of how long..

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by Rock Chalk

*shakes head*

Do you even watch football?

Go look at the premier TE matchups when Sam was our Big Nickle guy. Go see how well they did against us when Sam played.

You know why his stats were low (nevermind that 13 PDs is pretty ****ing awesome for a safety)? Because his coverage was so god damn good no one threw at him.

Yeesh. Sam Brandon had 9 PD's in 2003, 4 PD's for the rest of his career. 13 PD's for a 5 year career. But if you say he was dynamite that's ok with me.