The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Orange Mane Discussion > Orange Mane Central Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-12-2012, 12:19 PM   #126
TheReverend
Permanent Facepalm
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 37,676

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2KBack View Post
So I'm curious which LB position you think should be addressed first. I can't help but think that if Mays was barely satisfactory in coverage the Defense would look much better. Buying an Extra second of time (or even a second in some cases) plays well into the attacking style they want to run.

I doubt Denver changes the kinds of players they use at WILL. We have a wealth of ball chasers that work best in space right now. Woodyard, Tevathan, DJ, even Irving seem to have similar strengths and weaknesses.

This puts me at a loss for the direction I feel they should go.
Good as he is, schematically selecting Miller and playing him as we have been (which IS to maximize his abilities) put us in a really ****ty spot. We have a player that is an absolute world beater within his role, but he's not transcendent of scheme (not to say he couldnt be, he certainly has the athletic skill set for it). He fixes our pass rush woes in spades, but doesnt address our linebacker woes over the middle (ie: he's a great player, but he's not solving issues like TE/RB coverage due to his utilization)

We can get two world-beater linebackers than make the consistent run stop inside their gap ALONG with excelling in pass coverage

OR

We can compensate by playing 1 single high safety, dropping the other in the box to help pick up the slack.

So we need to either address the safety and linebacker position WITH A STUD (and by "A" I mean 2-4) or continue to flounder.

Wow, this post was walking on eggshells so the Von fanaticism doesn't freak the **** out. Again.
TheReverend is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 12:35 PM   #127
2KBack
Rumblin' Bumblin'
 
2KBack's Avatar
 
Cake is delicious

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wash DC
Posts: 8,095
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
Good as he is, schematically selecting Miller and playing him as we have been (which IS to maximize his abilities) put us in a really ****ty spot. We have a player that is an absolute world beater within his role, but he's not transcendent of scheme (not to say he couldnt be, he certainly has the athletic skill set for it). He fixes our pass rush woes in spades, but doesnt address our linebacker woes over the middle (ie: he's a great player, but he's not solving issues like TE/RB coverage due to his utilization)

We can get two world-beater linebackers than make the consistent run stop inside their gap ALONG with excelling in pass coverage

OR

We can compensate by playing 1 single high safety, dropping the other in the box to help pick up the slack.

So we need to either address the safety and linebacker position WITH A STUD (and by "A" I mean 2-4) or continue to flounder.

Wow, this post was walking on eggshells so the Von fanaticism doesn't freak the **** out. Again.
Sounds like we are backed into a corner schematically, which I am not knowledgeable enough to really deny. Man, it's too bad Nate Irving seems to be a bust, he has the tools.
2KBack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 12:45 PM   #128
Bmore Manning
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoMan4ever View Post
I like what you are saying about draft needs and fitting to scheme. I just feel that with Von the 4-3 under does not fully utilize him. His skill, speed, and surpising strength for his size could do so much more than rush off the edge. Look at Clay Matthews. He rushes off the edge and from everywhere along the line. By just rushing him off the edge he at times becomes a liability on run plays because he overpursued going for the QB and left a lane wide open. And that isn't his fault it is the scheme and how he is used.
By staying in the 4-3, Von can either play DE or he can stay at Sam in the 4-3 Under, which is what we are currently doing. A better schematical look at the 4-3 Under is how Seattle utilizes it with Bruce Irvin. Seattle has great players on all three levels though.

The other solution is moving to a 3-4..
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 12:47 PM   #129
Bmore Manning
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ View Post
Until the draft, I'd suggest starting Bruton at SS. He clocked out at 4.46 forty time and he's 6'2" and 217lbs. Maybe he can help. Can he be any more of a liability than Adams?
I don't like Adams at SS. I think if we put better LBs on the field Moore may look better and fit well as our FS.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 12:49 PM   #130
TheReverend
Permanent Facepalm
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 37,676

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2KBack View Post
Sounds like we are backed into a corner schematically, which I am not knowledgeable enough to really deny. Man, it's too bad Nate Irving seems to be a bust, he has the tools.
Does he? He's a 3rd round guy that can't sniff the field.

As far as the corner schematically, yes, yes we really are. Before last year's draft I said to draft Von Miller they needed to have a proper plan in place to use him and compensate for using him.

Well, guess what:

- We have a #2 overall pick at OLB
- We have another first round pick that people claim is "probowl" level
- We have a MLB that was a FA priority to the tune of 12 million dollars
- We have a former LB coach with a history of maximizing his LBs performances

And LB is hands down our worst unit on Sundays (unless we grade purely off sack #s).

Go figure.
TheReverend is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 12:55 PM   #131
DBroncos4life
Hey pic Mod!?!?! FU
 
DBroncos4life's Avatar
 
Bacon bits

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The wrong side of right.
Posts: 28,758

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Julius "Fluff"
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
Does he? He's a 3rd round guy that can't sniff the field.

As far as the corner schematically, yes, yes we really are. Before last year's draft I said to draft Von Miller they needed to have a proper plan in place to use him and compensate for using him.

Well, guess what:

- We have a #2 overall pick at OLB
- We have another first round pick that people claim is "probowl" level
- We have a MLB that was a FA priority to the tune of 12 million dollars
- We have a former LB coach with a history of maximizing his LBs performances

And LB is hands down our worst unit on Sundays (unless we grade purely off sack #s).

Go figure.
Too be fair one of those players you are talking about has yet to play this year.
DBroncos4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 12:56 PM   #132
TheReverend
Permanent Facepalm
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 37,676

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBroncos4life View Post
Too be fair one of those players you are talking about has yet to play this year.
To be fair, we have 8 seasons of DJ Williams sucking dick instead of covering someone.
TheReverend is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:07 PM   #133
DBroncos4life
Hey pic Mod!?!?! FU
 
DBroncos4life's Avatar
 
Bacon bits

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The wrong side of right.
Posts: 28,758

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Julius "Fluff"
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
To be fair, we have 8 seasons of DJ Williams sucking dick instead of covering someone.
That is true as well. Still Williams does make the LB core better if he gets Mays off the field.
DBroncos4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:11 PM   #134
Bmore Manning
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
Does he? He's a 3rd round guy that can't sniff the field.

As far as the corner schematically, yes, yes we really are. Before last year's draft I said to draft Von Miller they needed to have a proper plan in place to use him and compensate for using him.

Well, guess what:

- We have a #2 overall pick at OLB
- We have another first round pick that people claim is "probowl" level
- We have a MLB that was a FA priority to the tune of 12 million dollars
- We have a former LB coach with a history of maximizing his LBs performances

And LB is hands down our worst unit on Sundays (unless we grade purely off sack #s).

Go figure.
Denver needs to choose one of three choices..
A: Keep Von at OLB in our 4-3 Under and draft two new LBs.
B: Put Von at DE, and play a more traditional 4-3.
C: Switch to a 3-4.

All of which will require adjustments, what would you choose?
I myself like A.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:16 PM   #135
2KBack
Rumblin' Bumblin'
 
2KBack's Avatar
 
Cake is delicious

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wash DC
Posts: 8,095
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
Does he? He's a 3rd round guy that can't sniff the field.

As far as the corner schematically, yes, yes we really are. Before last year's draft I said to draft Von Miller they needed to have a proper plan in place to use him and compensate for using him.

Well, guess what:

- We have a #2 overall pick at OLB
- We have another first round pick that people claim is "probowl" level
- We have a MLB that was a FA priority to the tune of 12 million dollars
- We have a former LB coach with a history of maximizing his LBs performances

And LB is hands down our worst unit on Sundays (unless we grade purely off sack #s).

Go figure.
Has the tools, just obviously sucks at using them. Bottom line is still the same, lacking in linebacking.

As an optimist, I'm going to go with trusting Del Rio. The other perspective is too depressing
2KBack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:17 PM   #136
DENVERDUI55
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
To be fair, we have 8 seasons of DJ Williams sucking dick instead of covering someone.
How about having same number of DUI's as career INT's?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:19 PM   #137
TheReverend
Permanent Facepalm
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 37,676

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmore Manning View Post
Denver needs to choose one of three choices..
A: Keep Von at OLB in our 4-3 Under and draft two new LBs.
B: Put Von at DE, and play a more traditional 4-3.
C: Switch to a 3-4.

All of which will require adjustments, what would you choose?
I myself like A.
I went into HUGE detail in this thread here during the off-season (predates you because it was before Manning)

http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=103324
TheReverend is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:20 PM   #138
TheReverend
Permanent Facepalm
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 37,676

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBroncos4life View Post
That is true as well. Still Williams does make the LB core better if he gets Mays off the field.
At best, he'll only knock Mays off the field in nickel downs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DENVERDUI55 View Post
How about having same number of DUI's as career INT's?
I'd be willing to bet you could compare him vs the pass against any of the worst LBs in the league and they'd be pretty ****ing similar.
TheReverend is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:44 PM   #139
Bmore Manning
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
I went into HUGE detail in this thread here during the off-season (predates you because it was before Manning)

http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=103324
Then my friend we should be looking at two new LBs and a new SS, that's before thinking about man to man press corners. Though I think we have one in Omar?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 02:29 PM   #140
lonestar
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: West Texas
Posts: 6,192

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Decker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoMan4ever View Post
I like what you are saying about draft needs and fitting to scheme. I just feel that with Von the 4-3 under does not fully utilize him. His skill, speed, and surpising strength for his size could do so much more than rush off the edge. Look at Clay Matthews. He rushes off the edge and from everywhere along the line. By just rushing him off the edge he at times becomes a liability on run plays because he overpursued going for the QB and left a lane wide open. And that isn't his fault it is the scheme and how he is used.
Pretty sure that I have seen Miller shoot the interior gaps from time to time on a delayed basis. Once he sees the OL engaged giving him a straight shot on the QB.

While he excels on the edge they have moved him around to confuse the OL.
lonestar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 02:40 PM   #141
lonestar
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: West Texas
Posts: 6,192

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Decker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
To be fair, we have 8 seasons of DJ Williams sucking dick instead of covering someone.
Glad to know your not a Dumb Jock fan. That make us against the rest of the om group.

For some reason because he has led the team in tackles he is a world beater.

I see that as he was available to drag down a guy that has already made positive yards.

WW has shown this year he has the makings of being as good as dj was and frankly with his history I doubt he plays again in a Denver uniform barring another injury to the LB group.
dj has already shown that he has zero command of calling plays as the mike and Ww is paying his spot as good or better without the headaches.
None of them are going to take Von's spot.

By the time this puts gets out of the penalty box 9 games have been played. Period.
Probably take him another 2 weeks to get into game shape that puts him 11 weeks behind in experience with this defense and scheme.

Does anyone with a brain think they are going play him at WLB?
lonestar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 02:51 PM   #142
razorwire77
Tapenade Swagga
 
razorwire77's Avatar
 
"Not too shabby."

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 4,596

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Bradley Roby
Default

It's really not rocket science. We have a star in Von Miller. A guy who's best served as a react type pass rusher, reeking havoc and forcing teams to double team and or drop a TE/FB into protection and blowing up slip screens. We have a situational pass rusher in Elvis, who if we're honest is a pretty serious liability in run support. After that, the remaining front seven players on the team probably wouldn't start for any other team in the league. It's not a scheme issue, it's not JDR, it's a talent issue, plain and simple.

Acquire the best possible MLB via FA or 1st round draft pick.

Acquire the best possible WLB via FA or 1st round draft pick.

talent upgrades at NT, Will, Mike, and SS are really the only solution if Denver is going to beat the elite teams in the league.
razorwire77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 03:59 PM   #143
Requiem
~~~
 
Requiem's Avatar
 
~ ~ ~

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Earth Division
Posts: 24,315

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Princes of Tara
Default

Denver needs to draft a player at WILL and SAM. They also need a safety, corner, defensive end and defensive tackle. YAY. WE NEED IT ALL BABY!
Requiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 04:19 PM   #144
Bmore Manning
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem View Post
Denver needs to draft a player at WILL and SAM. They also need a safety, corner, defensive end and defensive tackle. YAY. WE NEED IT ALL BABY!
That's why I have looked ahead to Free Agency and draft prospects.
Obviously we can't address starters for every spot from the draft.

http://nfltraderumors.co/nfltr-featu...l-free-agents/

MLB: Urlacher is the only option I don't see it being realistic.
WLB: Love Erin Henderson!!
DT: Branch, Glen Dorsey
S: JARIUS BIRD! Phillips, Landry

The idea obviously is to not break the bank, so I would target 3 realistic players..
Erin Henderson who is under paid and not appreciated by Minnesota. Dorsey does not fit a 3-4 and would thrive in a 4-3. JARIUS BIRD would be a huge Safety acquisition that I can't stress enough!

Hunter will be back next year, and if he plays like he started to, then DE is fine, plus I expect Jackson to be a great DE back up on the strong side. Wolfe at DT next year will help the interior push.

That would only leave MLB, which I am beyond fine moving up for Te'o.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 06:13 PM   #145
BroncoMan4ever
Ring of Famer
 
BroncoMan4ever's Avatar
 
That's just like your opinion, man

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 13,505

Adopt-a-Bronco:
VIRGIL GREEN!!!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonestar View Post
Pretty sure that I have seen Miller shoot the interior gaps from time to time on a delayed basis. Once he sees the OL engaged giving him a straight shot on the QB.

While he excels on the edge they have moved him around to confuse the OL.
He gets those occasional rush on the interior line, but nowhere near often enough that is noticeable. I just feel like his abilities aren't being put to full use. His speed is incredible and would cause interior linemen fits. Add in his deceptive and unexpected for his size strength and power and it makes for a new wrinkle the D can add to itself
BroncoMan4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 08:50 PM   #146
lonestar
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: West Texas
Posts: 6,192

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Decker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoMan4ever View Post
He gets those occasional rush on the interior line, but nowhere near often enough that is noticeable. I just feel like his abilities aren't being put to full use. His speed is incredible and would cause interior linemen fits. Add in his deceptive and unexpected for his size strength and power and it makes for a new wrinkle the D can add to itself
only been a few but if you do something all the time it ususally becomes ineffective..

you show a bit of everything so the OC has to practice it all.. because time is limited something does not get appropriate time in practice..

Soon they will be worried more about wolfe.. and hopefully next year another DT in the draft..

then things open up more for Doom and Von..
lonestar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 06:43 AM   #147
Rock Chalk
Cheeky Bastards
 
Rock Chalk's Avatar
 
Laus Deo

Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The Backside of the Internet
Posts: 29,721

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Chris Harris
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem View Post
~ 10% of DJ's tackles last year were for loss. Five others were sacks. You were saying?
This is really misleading.

First, 10% TFL for a LB is a very low ratio. He had 75 tackles and 27 assists last year for a whopping 102 total tackles and only 8 tackles for loss. So, techincally its 8% TFL, of those 5 were sacks, so he really only had 3 tackles for loss on a RB or a WR or a TE.

For a WLB his numbers are pathetic. His Positive Win Probability is ****ty too making him the 51st best LB in the nation (Von Miller came in second). HIs EPA was 74th in the League.

46th in Passes Defensed, 44th in QB Hits, 16th in Forced Fumbles, 46th in TFL, and NOT among the 55 Linebackers in the country that got at least one interception.

Im not sure what you want to use to define his role. If, as a WLB, he is supposed to rush the passer, he sucks at it. If, as a WLB he is supposed to get stops, he sucks at it. If as a WLB he is supposed to drop into coverage, he sucks at it.

Quite frankly, DJ is a very below average Linebacker on the field and a ****ty person off it. The sooner we trade/cut/get rid of this Hurricane trash the better
Rock Chalk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 06:49 AM   #148
baja
Headmaster
 
baja's Avatar
 
The Fixer

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 61,229

Adopt-a-Bronco:
C J Anderson
Default

Anyone know who are the FA MLBs next season?
baja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 07:23 AM   #149
Bmore Manning
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by baja View Post
Anyone know who are the FA MLBs next season?
http://nfltraderumors.co/nfltr-featu...l-free-agents/

Urlacher sums it up..
So we need to address MLB in the draft. But there are some really good players available next season. Erin Henderson is a great WLB, Jarius Byrd at S would be HUGE.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 07:45 AM   #150
baja
Headmaster
 
baja's Avatar
 
The Fixer

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 61,229

Adopt-a-Bronco:
C J Anderson
Default

I think the Broncos are going to regret not getting Clady signed.
baja is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:07 AM.


Denver Broncos