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Old 10-11-2012, 08:54 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by broncocalijohn View Post
i think that was one of the 50 guys jjprice wanted in the top 15.
Only after Crick.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:56 AM   #177
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The problem is that over half those tackles came after a first down was made and he still is missing plays that need to be made by a competent safety in the NFL.

Tackles are the WORST statistical argument for defensive performance, because of a lack of situational representation. Making a tackle 3 yards past the first down marker when you should make it 3 yards before it is not executing your responsibility. It is still a minus play for your grade. Now, if he missed that tackle it would be a Major Minus.

Also, those numbers are inflated because of the poor play of the defense on third downs and playing so many snaps The middle of the defense has been especially porous. That gives him more opportunities to make tackles with little impact on the game or play. Having a safety with a high tackle number is NOT a good thing. Having a safety with high TFL's, FF's, INT's, and sacks would be much better.
This was a great point. 2 quick questions for you because I didn't get a great view of Moore when watching the game.
1. What had been your analysis of Dj Williams past couple of years in reference to that tackling comment?
2. Do you think that Rahim Moore can and will improve? or should we go shopping again next offseason.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:09 AM   #178
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This was a great point. 2 quick questions for you because I didn't get a great view of Moore when watching the game.
1. What had been your analysis of Dj Williams past couple of years in reference to that tackling comment?
2. Do you think that Rahim Moore can and will improve? or should we go shopping again next offseason.
I can answer number 2. Rahim is improving and growing into a solid safety. I doubt that Elway and co. will go after more in the draft because they already have 2 young safeties in Moore and Q. Carter. Carter would be starting alongside Moore if werent on IR. Denver has greater areas of need in the draft like MLB, so if they did go after another safety in FA or the draft, it would be for depth purposes only.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:46 PM   #179
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I can answer number 2. Rahim is improving and growing into a solid safety. I doubt that Elway and co. will go after more in the draft because they already have 2 young safeties in Moore and Q. Carter. Carter would be starting alongside Moore if werent on IR. Denver has greater areas of need in the draft like MLB, so if they did go after another safety in FA or the draft, it would be for depth purposes only.
Denver has good young talent at Safety, CB, WR and the Oline. Denver is solid at DL and TE with people that are in their prime of their careers. Concentrate the draft on LB, NT, RB.

Mostly linebacker

EDIT: Porter will be a FA so get a CB in the draft as well.
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:01 PM   #180
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The problem is that over half those tackles came after a first down was made and he still is missing plays that need to be made by a competent safety in the NFL.

Tackles are the WORST statistical argument for defensive performance, because of a lack of situational representation. Making a tackle 3 yards past the first down marker when you should make it 3 yards before it is not executing your responsibility. It is still a minus play for your grade. Now, if he missed that tackle it would be a Major Minus.
I think judging a safety on how many first downs he gave up before tackle indicates a misunderstanding of what a safety is there for.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:35 PM   #181
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I think judging a safety on how many first downs he gave up before tackle indicates a misunderstanding of what a safety is there for.
Not at this level. It might be a little harsh at lower levels, but not at the real quality programs.

Ask anyone who has played or coached a secondary and see what they say about Safeties making plays. Every safety has a run assignment based on the coverage called. Not one of them is designed to allow a first down. That is situational awareness, play recognition, and execution. All three of which Moore has been slow to do so far.

As for the passing game, it depends on their responsibility to the play. Sometimes they are deep center fielders who are supposed to take out the long balls. No real way to stop a catch in front of them for a first down and they are truly a deep last resort tackler.

However, all too often, both Adams and Moore could have made plays in the short passing game and intermediate passing game to prevent first downs. They are the primary weakness right now with the third down defense being so easy to convert. NE picked DEN apart and they really went after both safeties all game long, because they are slow to react, decipher, and execute.

Those are the plays I am talking about. Not the true last man back designation. Defenses are much more advanced and complicated than that.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:16 PM   #182
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Not at this level. It might be a little harsh at lower levels, but not at the real quality programs.

Ask anyone who has played or coached a secondary and see what they say about Safeties making plays. Every safety has a run assignment based on the coverage called. Not one of them is designed to allow a first down. That is situational awareness, play recognition, and execution. All three of which Moore has been slow to do so far.

As for the passing game, it depends on their responsibility to the play. Sometimes they are deep center fielders who are supposed to take out the long balls. No real way to stop a catch in front of them for a first down and they are truly a deep last resort tackler.

However, all too often, both Adams and Moore could have made plays in the short passing game and intermediate passing game to prevent first downs. They are the primary weakness right now with the third down defense being so easy to convert. NE picked DEN apart and they really went after both safeties all game long, because they are slow to react, decipher, and execute.

Those are the plays I am talking about. Not the true last man back designation. Defenses are much more advanced and complicated than that.
I'm not saying a safety is never at fault for giving up a first down. But there are many other cases where a safety making a tackle at all is due to a failure up front. And in those cases, it doesn't make any sense to judge him on whether a first down was gained or not. You'd have to know specifically what his assignment was before you could make that call.

First down stops would be a much better yardstick for the front 7 than for anyone in the secondary. And I'm not willing to pass much blame off on the secondary (for run support) when the play of the front 7 seems so suspect.
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:26 PM   #183
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I'm not saying a safety is never at fault for giving up a first down. But there are many other cases where a safety making a tackle at all is due to a failure up front. And in those cases, it doesn't make any sense to judge him on whether a first down was gained or not. You'd have to know specifically what his assignment was before you could make that call.

First down stops would be a much better yardstick for the front 7 than for anyone in the secondary. And I'm not willing to pass much blame off on the secondary (for run support) when the play of the front 7 seems so suspect.
The first part of this is true. A lot of the time, the safety is the clean up player in run support unless he has a gap assignment. So, him making a tackle at all can be because the other front 7 players got beat or simply lost their gap responsibility. In those cases, their job is to make the tackle.

However, how quickly does the safety diagnose and close on the ball once he gets a chance? That is where the second part is a little too lenient. A good safety makes the play right behind where the player who messed up would have made it. That is the definition of cleaning up a play. A lot goes into that process however, and that is why both DEN safeties are lacking.

The third part of knowing the assignment helps in the passing game for sure when grading, but in the run game if you can see it you can grade it. False steps, slow to react, poor angles, poor situational awareness, and a lack of closing speed to make the play haunts DEN's safety play. That is the difference in making a play short of the first down marker or letting the offense get 3 more plays.

As for the front Seven, they got pushed around at NE, but they had not been pushed around before that. NE just had their number and they played with them all game long until the fourth quarter. In the fourth, they played lights out. The same thing could not be said for the safety play. They were just as hesitant and lost in the fourth as the rest of the defense was before that.
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:27 PM   #184
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Rahim moore is terrible
If Rahim Moore is terrible..then what do you think of Mr.Mays?
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:13 PM   #185
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Mediator, so those the questions were somewhat answered at least question 2. What is your take on both questions I asked?


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Originally Posted by Premier-Ace55 View Post
This was a great point. 2 quick questions for you because I didn't get a great view of Moore when watching the game.
1. What had been your analysis of Dj Williams past couple of years in reference to that tackling comment?
2. Do you think that Rahim Moore can and will improve? or should we go shopping again next offseason.
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