American Air Boss Speaks Softly, Carries Stick

[That One Guy]

Wow, Lonestar is still an idiot.

As for the union folk, the focus should be on increasing jobs in the US and preventing outsourcing. Unions can only function when there's a shortage of workers so the unions have some of the chips. When people are basically on their knees begging for a job and have no bargaining chips, unions will repeatedly get crushed.

Oh, and always have an alternative option so you won't get walked on. That wouldn't hurt either.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by snowspot66
The unions negotiated with the company and came to an agreement that was signed by the company. Why should they be forced by a judge to give up what was negotiated for and received in a legally binding contract? It's always the unions faults isn't it? It's never the companies failures. It's always the unions. Does responsibility only apply to the individual that can be stepped on and walked over?

Yes contracts were signed in some cases decades ago. negotiated but sometime the unions threaten of a strike or an actual strike caused contracts that were one sided..

I saw some data years ago (80's) that the average guy that worked on the assemble line in DET was making close to 80 bucks an hour when you factored in the benefits they had including Mercedes health plans..
all of this for putting a fender or bumper on a Buick.. Even the guy pushing a broom around cleaning up was making the same money..
ZERO intelligence required to do something like that..

They were prime jobs to get at the time and NOW a reason that most of those jobs are replaced with robots.. or the factories were closed because of labor costs..

As for the airlines some of the pilots making 300k+ a year for working a few days out of the month.. Lots of senior Flight attendants are doing the same..

Now I know that the FAA has restrictions on hours worked and how many days you can work consecutively before there is mandated rest time...

I went to Germany a month ago and about an hour into the flight one of the captains came back into the first class cabin and put up a curtain around a seat and proceeded to go take a nap or watch the movie not sure what because it was blocked off... the other one switched off a couple hours later.. same on the return flight..

They get fed first class meals and in most cases stay in at least 3 star hotels each with their own room.. In many cases 4-5 star hotels depending on where they travel.. Picked up at curbside and take to the hotel and returned the same way they get reduced rates on food and drink while they are there..

In some cases senior pilots take second jobs because they are bored sitting at home.. can only play so much golf you know..

As for the junior pilots their wage scale is considerably less but then that is because the old guys want more to keep up their standard of living..

Is it right that the courts are voiding their contracts?
I guess some cuts have to be made to make sure everyone has a job.

I would think that most of the commies on here would get that..


Bankruptcy judges look at the whole package all of the financial issues and make hard decisions.. Some things go some stay. In this case the union contracts are out of line with the long term good of the airline.. Most of the Union contracts will be looked at and revised.. as are every contract that has been signed by AA, the vendors that supply them with food, fuel, hotels their crews stay at.. Airport contracts for space and rent..

The judge has to make some hard decisions that could not have been made by management..

[Garcia Bronco]

Originally Posted by That One Guy

Wow, Lonestar is still an idiot.

As for the union folk, the focus should be on increasing jobs in the US and preventing outsourcing. Unions can only function when there's a shortage of workers so the unions have some of the chips. When people are basically on their knees begging for a job and have no bargaining chips, unions will repeatedly get crushed.

Oh, and always have an alternative option so you won't get walked on. That wouldn't hurt either.

Yep. Are worker are now competing in a global market and it's not a sellers market from a Union perspective. To move someone...you need a lever...and on that lever you need leverage and few Unions are in a position to do that.

[lonestar]

American Issues Layoff Notices, Cuts Flights
September 18, 2012


American Airlines said on Tuesday it has notified more than 11,000 workers they could lose their jobs as part of its bankruptcy, and added it is cutting flights by one to two percent for the rest of September and October.

The US carrier, which filed for Chapter 11 protection last year, expects fewer than 40 percent of those it sent notices to, or 4,400 people, will actually be laid off in November and December, spokesman Bruce Hicks said.

The layoff notices were issued under the Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification Act, which requires employees to be informed 60 days before major layoffs or plant closures

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348012201.html

loads more to read at that site..

AA is biting the bullet..

[lonestar]

American Cuts Capacity Amid Canceled Flights, Sick Pilots
By Mary Schlangenstein on September 18, 2012


American Airlines (AAMRQ) cut U.S. capacity by as much as 2 percent for the rest of this month and October as pilot retirements, sick calls and mechanical issues left the carrier with more cancellations than any of its U.S. competitors.

The airline is trimming flight and seating capacity less than a week after imposing cost cuts on its pilots. The reductions take effect immediately and will occur “selectively across our system,” Bruce Hicks, a spokesman, said in an interview. American led the U.S. industry in both scrapped flights and delays yesterday, according to FlightStats.com.

American, a unit of AMR Corp., won bankruptcy court permission on Sept. 12 to void its existing pilot contract and impose cost cuts after the workers rejected the carrier’s final contract offer. Pilots are conducting a strike vote, though they currently don’t have the legal right to stage a work stoppage.

more at

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...ts-sick-pilots

[lonestar]

AMR Bondholders Demand Payment
September 19, 2012
Bookmark and Share

Holders of USD $450 million in American Airlines bonds plan to ask a US bankruptcy judge for an order to help ensure they get paid, claiming that the 143 planes that are collateral for their investment could lose too much value.

The bondholders' agent, US Bank, is expected to argue at a Thursday hearing in US Bankruptcy Court in Manhattan that American has neglected its planes, and failed to make hundreds of repairs.

They fear that this and other costs could force the value of the planes to sink too low to cover the bonds.

The value "will continue to erode as a result of the costs to insure, store, ferry, market and sell the aircraft," US Bank said in court papers.

Most of the planes are older aircraft, including Boeing 757s and MD-82/83s made by McDonnell Douglas. Payment on the bonds is due October 15.

more at

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348100214.html


rutt ro

US Bank justified its action, saying AMR recently missed a USD$36 million interest payment,

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by That One Guy

Wow, Lonestar is still an idiot.

How sad is it for lonestar that even his fellow conservatives think so?

[lonestar]

once again the peanut gallery makes another cheap shot.. glad the moron is on iggy..

wonder what his butt buddy is doing about now..

[lonestar]

once again the peanut gallery makes another cheap shot.. glad the moron is on iggy..

wonder what his butt buddy is doing about now..

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

^

Gotta chuckle at these chimps who put you on ignore only to continue commenting on your posts which they "no longer read..."

[lonestar]

American Air Pilot Union Denies Job Action
September 20, 2012

The union representing pilots at American Airlines said it has called no job action at the bankrupt carrier, which this week cancelled hundreds of flights citing increased pilot maintenance reports and sick leave usage.

American began implementing cost cuts for its pilots this month after a US bankruptcy judge ruled the airline could abandon its collective bargaining agreement with the pilots' union.

The airline said on Wednesday it cancelled about 300 flights for this week out of nearly 24,000 departures planned across its network, including the American Eagle regional division.

American cited factors including "an increase in maintenance reports filed by pilots, as well as levels of sick leave usage that have been running higher than historical norms."

more at..

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348183265.html

how can you tell if a union rep is lying?

his lips are moving..

this is the opposite thing these morons should be doing..

the public has to have confidence in the airline they chose..

right now Travel Agents all over the place are telling their clients to go with anyone but AA, and this is prime time for holiday travel bookings..

doing this kind of crap will sink that airline or SHRINK it into something a lot less Pilots will have a job at..

not to mention they have US Air waiting in the wings to pick the bones of this airline and a hell of a lot more union jobs will go up in smoke..

[ghwk]

Originally Posted by lonestar

more at..

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348183265.html

how can you tell if a union rep is lying?

his lips are moving..

this is the opposite thing these morons should be doing..

the public has to have confidence in the airline they chose..

right now Travel Agents all over the place are telling their clients to go with anyone but AA, and this is prime time for holiday travel bookings..

doing this kind of crap will sink that airline or SHRINK it into something a lot less Pilots will have a job at..

not to mention they have US Air waiting in the wings to pick the bones of this airline and a hell of a lot more union jobs will go up in smoke..

You sound delighted with glee at the way this is playing out. Very sad for everyone.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by ghwk

You sound delighted with glee at the way this is playing out. Very sad for everyone.

Not at all.. It is sad but then the unions most of all caused this nightmare of not doing the right thing while the company is in Bankruptcy..

The judge can do anything on contracts if he does not like them (contracts)..

why the unions do not get this after going through the same thing with UA, CO, DL, US Air is beyond me..


why they give the members bad info is almost criminal and now the pilots are butt hurt and are causing even more problems that are going to do nothing but sink the ship..

the Pilots and unions think they are being smart by getting out on the runway and calling in a bogus malfunction all that does is cost the airline even more money PAYING full fare at the other airlines to get their passengers to their destinations..

real smart getting 300 bucks for a ticket and then turning around and paying 800 to put them on CO Dl or UA.. or they wind up paying the customers for their inconvenience by putting them up in a hotel and buying them meals plus up to 800 for them not getting to their destination on time..

Or even better yet setting out on the runway and not allowing passengers to deplane.. that gets them government fines.. BIG ONES..

These morons just do not get it that the Bankruptcy judge can do anything to contracts the unions have ZERO power..

IIRC there is a federal law about preventing airline unions from striking so the employees are screwed..

Again AA is losing millions daily in advanced bookings and frankly they need every buck they can scrape together to get out of bankruptcy..

US air is just waiting to pick over the bone and that airline is the last one you want to own you..

last time I heard they still do not have a working relationship between teh two uninons that cover the Flight attendants one for the old America west folks the other for the US air folks this has to be going on since 2004..

[ghwk]

Originally Posted by lonestar

Not at all.. It is sad but then the unions most of all caused this nightmare of not doing the right thing while the company is in Bankruptcy..

The judge can do anything on contracts if he does not like them (contracts)..

why the unions do not get this after going through the same thing with UA, CO, DL, US Air is beyond me..


why they give the members bad info is almost criminal and now the pilots are butt hurt and are causing even more problems that are going to do nothing but sink the ship..

the Pilots and unions think they are being smart by getting out on the runway and calling in a bogus malfunction all that does is cost the airline even more money PAYING full fare at the other airlines to get their passengers to their destinations..

real smart getting 300 bucks for a ticket and then turning around and paying 800 to put them on CO Dl or UA.. or they wind up paying the customers for their inconvenience by putting them up in a hotel and buying them meals plus up to 800 for them not getting to their destination on time..

Or even better yet setting out on the runway and not allowing passengers to deplane.. that gets them government fines.. BIG ONES..

These morons just do not get it that the Bankruptcy judge can do anything to contracts the unions have ZERO power..

IIRC there is a federal law about preventing airline unions from striking so the employees are screwed..

Again AA is losing millions daily in advanced bookings and frankly they need every buck they can scrape together to get out of bankruptcy..

US air is just waiting to pick over the bone and that airline is the last one you want to own you..

last time I heard they still do not have a working relationship between teh two uninons that cover the Flight attendants one for the old America west folks the other for the US air folks this has to be going on since 2004..

So if I understand you, the outcome occurring here is Lose Lose and it is the unions fault right?

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by ghwk

So if I understand you, the outcome occurring here is Lose Lose and it is the unions fault right?

mostly..the unions past threats of strikes forced the hands of management to cave into their demands..

when other airline and for that matter companies were able to go through bankruptcy and lower their costs the UNIONs (read employees) blocked AA from getting their costs down..

with the threat of more and more work disruptions like what is going on now with the pilots..

the unions forced AA into bankruptcy to be able to compete with the other majors who had already cut costs..

Now although they are denying it is a work action set up by the union (read Pilots) it is now maybe even crippling AA for money needed to get out of Bankruptcy by these childish acts.. This is prime time for folks booking holiday travel and all the press about the late, cancelled flights as well as reports of lack of maintenance of their planes is sending people to the other airlines and forcing AA to trim even more flights than they would because of the work action..

Which will lead to even more layoffs IIRC 4400 so far up to perhaps as many as 10,000.

which of course just leads to more unemployment and jobs lost in the private sector as suppliers to AA and those folks that AA employees do spend their money at are forced to cut staff also..


the short version is the UNION gave the Pilots false hope that the Judge would not void their contract.. and therefore they did not set down with AA and make concessions that would have stopped all this nonsense..

now for the most part the Judge will be making Managements decisions for them on a new contract.. and every time that has happened it has been brutal..

I have lots of friends locally at AA, but some of the employees arrogance has cost them jobs.. Their blind faith that the unions will force the big bad CEO to cave may just be the death nell of AA as most know it today..

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by lonestar

the unions forced AA into bankruptcy to be able to compete with the other majors who had already cut costs..

Sure it wasn't you know, a poor business model and execution?

The burden to prove it was the unions' fault lays squarely on your shoulders.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by houghtam

Sure it wasn't you know, a poor business model and execution?

The burden to prove it was the unions' fault lays squarely on your shoulders.

sure it was a poor business model but it was based on lousy union contracts as well.. it was also based on what the other airlines pre-bankruptcies models..

and therefore completely out of date..

Not sure how much you know about the airline industry but since deregulation happens decades ago it is highly competitive with income streams..
one airline reduces fares, most otehrs match it.. I saw as many as seven changes in basic fares a few years back..

the airline years ago literally would call each other and tell the competition that they were changing fares Mostly before the age of big time computing..

the Feds put a stop to the calls ..

now they do not have to as all the fares loaded in each of their systems for distribution go through a clearing house. ARC so travel agents, GDS Global distributing Systems and the biggie online scheme such as expedia can see their fares..

all the airlines have computers that watch these types of changes and they have the ability to match them with in minutes..

all they need to do so is a decision maker to hit the button..

therefore the only real thing that management has control of are labor costs and supplier contracts.. for food, rents and planes, etc. While fuel is their biggest cost and well not much the can do about that..

Although Delta has just bought a shut down refinery in PA and has just reopened it to make jet fuel to their own standards while selling off the other refined products to conoco IIRC, they think this will save them $500,000,000.00 a year..

AA has had their hands tied for year and has gotten concession years ago from most of the union contracts they were not enough to save them..Their fleet is one of the oldest, however IIRC US Air fleet is older..

bad business model sure but labor costs are the second biggest expense for an airline after fuel.. When that is out of whack and LOCKED in to contracts the only place to go it to a JUDGE which they did everyone in the industry knew it was coming and frankly everyone was surprised they held off as long as they did.. they were trying to get new contracts with unions..

hope that helps..

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by houghtam

Sure it wasn't you know, a poor business model and execution?

The burden to prove it was the unions' fault lays squarely on your shoulders.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

[elsid13]

As a manager I know you to have to manage both labor and capital costs if you want to be successful. To blame labor as sole reason for failure is weak ass excuse, it's poor management and leadership result in the problems with AA, but I am sure executives don't want to take responsibility because there goes their bonuses.

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by elsid13

As a manager I know you to have to manage both labor and capital costs if you want to be successful. To blame labor as sole reason for failure is weak ass excuse, it's poor management and leadership result in the problems with AA, but I am sure executives don't want to take responsibility because there goes their bonuses.

As a manager, I've also had unions working for me before. It is not easy and can be frustrating, but a contract is a contract. I honored the terms of the contract while in management, and I voiced my displeasure to the management for trying to break the union unethically.

Contract's a contract. You break it, your word is forfeit.

[lonestar]

American Ready To Resume Talks With Pilots
September 25, 2012


The union representing pilots at American Airlines said the airline wants to resume talks, indicating the company's intent in resolving a stalemate with the association.

Bruce Hicks, a spokesman for American, confirmed the carrier had told the pilots' union in writing that it was ready to restart talks to try to reach a contract agreement.

lets hope they accomplish something..

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348575535.html

[kappys]

Originally Posted by lonestar

sure it was a poor business model but it was based on lousy union contracts as well.. it was also based on what the other airlines pre-bankruptcies models..

and therefore completely out of date..

Not sure how much you know about the airline industry but since deregulation happens decades ago it is highly competitive with income streams..
one airline reduces fares, most otehrs match it.. I saw as many as seven changes in basic fares a few years back..

the airline years ago literally would call each other and tell the competition that they were changing fares Mostly before the age of big time computing..

the Feds put a stop to the calls ..

now they do not have to as all the fares loaded in each of their systems for distribution go through a clearing house. ARC so travel agents, GDS Global distributing Systems and the biggie online scheme such as expedia can see their fares..

all the airlines have computers that watch these types of changes and they have the ability to match them with in minutes..

all they need to do so is a decision maker to hit the button..

therefore the only real thing that management has control of are labor costs and supplier contracts.. for food, rents and planes, etc. While fuel is their biggest cost and well not much the can do about that..

Although Delta has just bought a shut down refinery in PA and has just reopened it to make jet fuel to their own standards while selling off the other refined products to conoco IIRC, they think this will save them $500,000,000.00 a year..

AA has had their hands tied for year and has gotten concession years ago from most of the union contracts they were not enough to save them..Their fleet is one of the oldest, however IIRC US Air fleet is older..

bad business model sure but labor costs are the second biggest expense for an airline after fuel.. When that is out of whack and LOCKED in to contracts the only place to go it to a JUDGE which they did everyone in the industry knew it was coming and frankly everyone was surprised they held off as long as they did.. they were trying to get new contracts with unions..

hope that helps..

Poor business model based on cheap fuel and business flights.

Airlines are stuck because they can't really raise their prices much - if they do people stop traveling. Business travel is becoming more and more optional in a lot fields thanks to some of the teleconferencing options that are out there now.

The unions have no real choice here - if AA goes bankrupt then they get nothing anyways. Still I feel its always a shame that unions and their benefits get slashed in these sorts of negociations but there is usually little or no limitation of executive pay/compensation as part of the legal arrangements.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by kappys

Poor business model based on cheap fuel and business flights.

Airlines are stuck because they can't really raise their prices much - if they do people stop traveling. Business travel is becoming more and more optional in a lot fields thanks to some of the teleconferencing options that are out there now.

The unions have no real choice here - if AA goes bankrupt then they get nothing anyways. Still I feel its always a shame that unions and their benefits get slashed in these sorts of negociations but there is usually little or no limitation of executive pay/compensation as part of the legal arrangements.

I agree that some of the execs make way more than they are worth, but then most of their compensation they make is in stock options and benifits..

it is not actual money..

Unfortunately YEARS ago at most union shops and the airlines are no different wages got skewed and workers got used to the lifestyle..

Flight attendants making 70K a year and only actually working 40 hours a month or less.. and that was not including the benefits, or a auto worker making as much or more for putting a bumper on.. just a couple of examples of over the top salaries now they are unable to pay these wages as YOU said competition came in with much lower wages SWA as an example when they first started had brand new planes that required a lot less maintenance and gas was cheap and employees none had any seniority and while they had some pension benefits being offered the actual payouts on those were 20 years down the line.. they offered 19 dollar fares.

the other airlines in those same markets had to match them.. all the while paying sky high benefits and wages..

mostly the same thing happened to the auto industry.. with imports..

Americans got fat and lazy with high wages and we did not plan long term..

Now most of the companies understand that they have to look at long term and the employees are caught up in it..

got an appointment may expand on this later..

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by lonestar

I agree that some of the execs make way more than they are worth, but then most of their compensation they make is in stock options and benifits(sic)...

it is not actual money..

L0L!



You can't make this sh*t up!

[lonestar]

blah blah blah..

I'm guessing STILL absolutely nothing of value you to say