2012-2013 General NHL Hockey Thread

[BroncoLifer]

I'm embarrassed to admit that until yesterday I didn't realize that Donald Fehr is now the Director of the NHLPA. My hopes for a quick settlement just got a lot dimmer.

[gyldenlove]

Originally Posted by DivineLegion

Not really, half the players in the league have already committed to Russian or Sweedish franchises. If I were a wealthy European who loved hockey I would try and unite the various German, Ukranian, Russian, and Sweedish leagues thereby stealing ALL the talent the NHL had, and putting Gary Bettman to rest. I hate how the NHL goes about their buisness. The sport is growing, it netted its largest profits ever last season, and the owners won't treat the players with an iota of respect. The NHL is shooting its self in the foot on this one.

Most of them will be making a pittance compared to their normal salary, not to mention the loss of sponsorship revenue due to lost tv exposure.

Guys like Nash and Thornton are both making around 7 mill a year in the NHL, they will be making less than 1 mill each in Switzerland if they play the whole season.

The money and infrastructure to create 1 big league is simply not in place, the entire foundation of the league would be players most of whom would have to return to the NHL once the lockout is over.

[Tombstone RJ]

The NHL expanded way too quickly the last 20 years or so and that is squarely on the owners. Before the last CBA the players were making way more money than the small market teams could realistically afford and the players capitulated. Contracts leveled out or shrunk. Then certain teams (owners again) started skirting the CBA by doing assinine contracts like the contracts where a team signs a player for $100m and 15 years or some such crap.

Meh, it's like the owners are too stupid to realize that they have a great product, but a very limited market (comparatively speaking to the NFL, NBA, MLB). What they have to do is shrink the league, get rid of some teams (Phoenix? Atlanta? the Florida teams? really?) and maximize the product (less players, but better player, get rid of the Eurotrash) and let the game get really popular again in the cities that have the teams.

Really, how hard is this crap?

[gyldenlove]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

The NHL expanded way too quickly the last 20 years or so and that is squarely on the owners. Before the last CBA the players were making way more money than the small market teams could realistically afford and the players capitulated. Contracts leveled out or shrunk. Then certain teams (owners again) started skirting the CBA by doing assinine contracts like the contracts where a team signs a player for $100m and 15 years or some such crap.

Meh, it's like the owners are too stupid to realize that they have a great product, but a very limited market (comparatively speaking to the NFL, NBA, MLB). What they have to do is shrink the league, get rid of some teams (Phoenix? Atlanta? the Florida teams? really?) and maximize the product (less players, but better player, get rid of the Eurotrash) and let the game get really popular again in the cities that have the teams.

Really, how hard is this crap?

[sarcasm]
Yes, clearly we need to get rid of guys like Malkin, Kovalchuk, Karlson, Lundquist, Rinne, the Sedin's, Datsyuk and Kopitar - they bring nothing to the league at all and just dilute the product. Lets get rid of Atlanta, they have had a team for far too long, we could move it to a real hockey market in Canada.

[/sarcasm]

[DivineLegion]

Originally Posted by gyldenlove

Most of them will be making a pittance compared to their normal salary, not to mention the loss of sponsorship revenue due to lost tv exposure.

Guys like Nash and Thornton are both making around 7 mill a year in the NHL, they will be making less than 1 mill each in Switzerland if they play the whole season.

The money and infrastructure to create 1 big league is simply not in place, the entire foundation of the league would be players most of whom would have to return to the NHL once the lockout is over.

I thought some of the Russian leagues paid pretty well. At least a European league would generate more interest on an all inclusive base. The NHLs obsession with southern markets is ridiculous. Two teams in Florida? 06' cup finals I was at the RBC center for the first Edmonton game, and after Edmonton scored I heard a guy behind me scream " kill em dead"; that's southern Hockey fans. The overall fan base has grown exceptionally well in Raleigh, but it's still a struggling market. Peter Karmanos and Jim Rutheford had a self imposed cap 10 million below the cap until this year, because the Canes couldn't afford to be competitive in the free agent market. At least you could find a base of Hockey interested markets in Europe, and build off of what is already in place. So far every NHL game played in Europe has been sold out. Finland, Germany, Russia, Sweeden, Switzerland, and The Chech Republic are all primed for the foundation of a Eurocentric hockey league.

[gyldenlove]

Originally Posted by DivineLegion

I thought some of the Russian leagues paid pretty well. At least a European league would generate more interest on an all inclusive base. The NHLs obsession with southern markets is ridiculous. Two teams in Florida? 06' cup finals I was at the RBC center for the first Edmonton game, and after Edmonton scored I heard a guy behind me scream " kill em dead"; that's southern Hockey fans. The overall fan base has grown exceptionally well in Raleigh, but it's still a struggling market. Peter Karmanos and Jim Rutheford had a self imposed cap 10 million below the cap until this year, because the Canes couldn't afford to be competitive in the free agent market. At least you could find a base of Hockey interested markets in Europe, and build off of what is already in place. So far every NHL game played in Europe has been sold out. Finland, Germany, Russia, Sweeden, Switzerland, and The Chech Republic are all primed for the foundation of a Eurocentric hockey league.

The Russian league pays stars pretty well because they pay no taxes and have very low expenses comparatively, but it is largely a money pit driven by Russian oil tycoons.

There is no infrastructure in terms of TV deals or even TV markets that would allow for a pan European league, the strength of the North American market is that 1 TV deal can cover everything - if you created a league with say 4 Swedish, 2 Finnish, 3 German, 2 Czech and 5 Russian teams you would need at least 5 national TV deals and with them sponsorships, you would need to sell the league to other nations including Denmark, Slovakia, Latvia, Switzerland and Norway as well.

I agree that the focus on getting into large TV markets in Florida, California, Phoenix, Dallas, Atlanta have really created a tiered situation and looking at the attendence problems of teams like the Islanders, Coyotes and Panthers really shows how important it is to catch up those small markets.

The NHL really needs to revamp the revenue sharing model, right now the big teams like Toronto, Vancouver, Chicago, Detroit and Montreal are knee deep in cash while the small market teams, even the successful ones like Nashville are really struggling and taking losses. The idea of the last CBA was to create competitive balance to increase the value of the small market teams and it has worked, Carolina, Tampa Bay and Anaheim have taken home championships and the overall value of the league has inreased a lot including some sweet new TV deals. The next step has to be to share revenue to solidify the league - right now Phoenix, Dallas, New Jersey and last year Atlanta and fairly recently Tampa Bay have been in ownership limbo.

The owners have tried to redefine hockey revenue in a way that would allow the big market teams to push profit into those streams which would reduce the salary cap and the players compensation - Donald Fehr didn't go for it and has instead been pushing revenue sharing like the models used in NFL and NBA.

[DENVERDUI55]

Shouldn't this be in the other sports forum?

[Beantown Bronco]

Originally Posted by gyldenlove

[sarcasm]
Yes, clearly we need to get rid of guys like Malkin, Kovalchuk, Karlson, Lundquist, Rinne, the Sedin's, Datsyuk and Kopitar - they bring nothing to the league at all and just dilute the product.

Seriously. The Bruins would be without their #1 and #2 defenders in Chara and Seidenberg. Not to mention their starting goalie (Rask) and #1 center (Krejci). But let's just get rid of all those scrub Europeans.....

[Beantown Bronco]

Originally Posted by DENVERDUI55

Shouldn't this be in the other sports forum?

Walk away.

[gyldenlove]

Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco

Seriously. The Bruins would be without their #1 and #2 defenders in Chara and Seidenberg. Not to mention their starting goalie (Rask) and #1 center (Krejci). But let's just get rid of all those scrub Europeans.....

The Red Wings would be without 3 of the top 6 D including the number 1, and at least half of the forwards including the top 4 - not to mention one of the 3 greatest defensemen to ever play the game would never have worn that jersey and would never have won 7 Norris trophies, 1 Conn Smythe, 4 Stanley cups...

I feel like we can dismiss the idea as nonsense.

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by gyldenlove

[sarcasm]
Yes, clearly we need to get rid of guys like Malkin, Kovalchuk, Karlson, Lundquist, Rinne, the Sedin's, Datsyuk and Kopitar - they bring nothing to the league at all and just dilute the product. Lets get rid of Atlanta, they have had a team for far too long, we could move it to a real hockey market in Canada.

[/sarcasm]

I'm not saying there aren't great Euro players because obviously there are. However, I think if the league got rid of some teams it would purge some of the Euro guys out (some Americans, some Canadians too) and keep the best. The expansion of the Euro players has coincided with the expansion of the NHL.

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by DivineLegion

I thought some of the Russian leagues paid pretty well. At least a European league would generate more interest on an all inclusive base. The NHLs obsession with southern markets is ridiculous. Two teams in Florida? 06' cup finals I was at the RBC center for the first Edmonton game, and after Edmonton scored I heard a guy behind me scream " kill em dead"; that's southern Hockey fans. The overall fan base has grown exceptionally well in Raleigh, but it's still a struggling market. Peter Karmanos and Jim Rutheford had a self imposed cap 10 million below the cap until this year, because the Canes couldn't afford to be competitive in the free agent market. At least you could find a base of Hockey interested markets in Europe, and build off of what is already in place. So far every NHL game played in Europe has been sold out. Finland, Germany, Russia, Sweeden, Switzerland, and The Chech Republic are all primed for the foundation of a Eurocentric hockey league.

It'd be pretty cool if the NHL could do the Stanely Cup finals and then have that team go to play the equivolent Euro team for a World Cup finals or something like that. Shorten the overal NHL season to allow for this.

epic.

[DivineLegion]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

It'd be pretty cool if the NHL could do the Stanely Cup finals and then have that team go to play the equivolent Euro team for a World Cup finals or something like that. Shorten the overal NHL season to allow for this.

epic.

There's an idea, and right in line with what I was proposing. Glen made a good point about unanimous TV deals, but a cross function world hockey federation playing for a world cup, or chaplains leagueesque title would be sweet.

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by DivineLegion

There's an idea, and right in line with what I was proposing. Glen made a good point about unanimous TV deals, but a cross function world hockey federation playing for a world cup, or chaplains leagueesque title would be sweet.

Yah, I can see an equivolent NHL Euro league where professional teams are planted in cities that love hockey and have ownership that would build teams based on Euro players (hell, they could bring in Canadians and Americans if they wanted to pay those guys too) but overall these teams are made up of European talent. They have their season, the NHL North America has it's season. Each league has their own championship (called the Stanley Cup in North America) and the winners go and play one final for the World Cup or the NHL Cup or whatever you want to call it.

[chadta]

Originally Posted by gyldenlove

The NHL really needs to revamp the revenue sharing model, right now the big teams like Toronto, Vancouver, Chicago, Detroit and Montreal are knee deep in cash while the small market teams, even the successful ones like Nashville are really struggling and taking losses. The idea of the last CBA was to create competitive balance to increase the value of the small market teams and it has worked, Carolina, Tampa Bay and Anaheim have taken home championships and the overall value of the league has inreased a lot including some sweet new TV deals. The next step has to be to share revenue to solidify the league - right now Phoenix, Dallas, New Jersey and last year Atlanta and fairly recently Tampa Bay have been in ownership limbo.

The owners have tried to redefine hockey revenue in a way that would allow the big market teams to push profit into those streams which would reduce the salary cap and the players compensation - Donald Fehr didn't go for it and has instead been pushing revenue sharing like the models used in NFL and NBA.

Really ?

in toronto you have to have a ticket left to you in a will to get it, parking at the arena costs more than the combo deal in phoenix that gets you 2 tickets, 2 hotdogs, 2 ball caps, 2 beers, a flag, and permission to drop the opening faceoff, and you think they should just give that money away to share with the other teams ?

If they are going to split all the money evenly, they should have league wide pricing, so tickets in toronto that now cost $400.00 each, would be the same price as the tickets that now cost $29.99 in phoenix, probably somewhere around the $150 mark seems fair, what do you think that would do to demand in these markets that never should have been ?

http://www.ranker.com/list/nhl-teams-values-2012/w1z1k

Leafs operating income of 82 million is almost as much as the #2 and #3 teams combined, no wonder they dont want a team in hamilton, or another team in toronto. But why hasnt the league made it happen ?

only 12 teams had a positive operating income last year, 6 of them were Canadian. Why are we trying to sell hockey to people that watch cars make left turns all day ?

The only Canadian team that didnt make money was the winnipeg, and the arena they have is way to small, they never should have gotten a team. I dont see how losing 5 million in winnipeg is any better than losing 5 million in atlanta. Expand the rink, or fold them too.

We miss another year of hockey to try and save teams for people that dont care about the game, and its stupid, fold the teams, and give us our gameback.

[gyldenlove]

Originally Posted by chadta

Really ?

in toronto you have to have a ticket left to you in a will to get it, parking at the arena costs more than the combo deal in phoenix that gets you 2 tickets, 2 hotdogs, 2 ball caps, 2 beers, a flag, and permission to drop the opening faceoff, and you think they should just give that money away to share with the other teams ?

If they are going to split all the money evenly, they should have league wide pricing, so tickets in toronto that now cost $400.00 each, would be the same price as the tickets that now cost $29.99 in phoenix, probably somewhere around the $150 mark seems fair, what do you think that would do to demand in these markets that never should have been ?

http://www.ranker.com/list/nhl-teams-values-2012/w1z1k

Leafs operating income of 82 million is almost as much as the #2 and #3 teams combined, no wonder they dont want a team in hamilton, or another team in toronto. But why hasnt the league made it happen ?

only 12 teams had a positive operating income last year, 6 of them were Canadian. Why are we trying to sell hockey to people that watch cars make left turns all day ?

The only Canadian team that didnt make money was the winnipeg, and the arena they have is way to small, they never should have gotten a team. I dont see how losing 5 million in winnipeg is any better than losing 5 million in atlanta. Expand the rink, or fold them too.

We miss another year of hockey to try and save teams for people that dont care about the game, and its stupid, fold the teams, and give us our gameback.

With more revenue sharing, I would propose starting at sharing evenly the first 38% of all revenue independent of source there would be less incentive for the teams that sell out like Montreal and Toronto to squeeze the prices since part of the money they would make would be shipped off to the south.

The reason so many teams are bleeding money is because of teams like Toronto and Montreal, a team like Nashville can operate at around 38 million dollars in player expenses and break even, but thanks to the high revenue of the original 6 they are not allowed to pay any less than 55 million - that drives up salaries of mediocre players and forces mid- and small-market teams to spend beyond their means.

The NFL has strong revenue sharing, and they are sharing a much larger pie with even bigger differences betweens the haves and have-nots.

[chadta]

Originally Posted by gyldenlove

With more revenue sharing, I would propose starting at sharing evenly the first 38% of all revenue independent of source there would be less incentive for the teams that sell out like Montreal and Toronto to squeeze the prices since part of the money they would make would be shipped off to the south.

Sure, I would agree with that.

Originally Posted by gyldenlove

The reason so many teams are bleeding money is because of teams like Toronto and Montreal, a team like Nashville can operate at around 38 million dollars in player expenses and break even, but thanks to the high revenue of the original 6 they are not allowed to pay any less than 55 million - that drives up salaries of mediocre players and forces mid- and small-market teams to spend beyond their means.

I agree, sort of, get rid of the cap floor, get rid of average cap hit, make it so that contracts must be same value at the start and the end, and dont let teams bury bad contracts in the minors. I have often wondered if the cap floor wasnt a way to make sure poor teams failed.

Originally Posted by gyldenlove

The NFL has strong revenue sharing, and they are sharing a much larger pie with even bigger differences betweens the haves and have-nots.

They really arent tho, you cant compare the 2, the NFL started sharing gate revenue in the 60s, they also only play 8 home games. They also get almost 50% of the money as a league from TV contracts. Its alot easier to share money that comes into the league and not to each team.

I asked on a hockey board what the financial situation would look like if we applied the NFL model to the NHL, 40% of gate to visitor, but that info just isnt readily available, it would penalize detroit, for being in a division with nashville and colmubus, what about the south eastern division, carolina, florida and tampa, who gains there ? so now you have to change the schedule. it starts to get real confusing.

[24champ]

Things are progressing. It looks like there is a chance the lockout ends soon.

Pensions and the cap number, are a couple sticking points both sides are far apart on.

Meanwhile NHL clubs are quietly planning training camp schedules.

[bronco militia]

if they are not back by the Superbowl, then hello NBA.


Hopefully the nugggets have fired Bernie Bickerstaff by now.

[SoCalBronco]

Pension issues and 2nd year cap will prolly take one more week to resolve. The two buyout proposal from the league will really benefit the large market teams.....IMO unfairly. Limit it to one buyout per team.

[Lestat]

the cap floor while somewhat unfair to smaller market teams is in place to avoid squatting owners who are only interested in owning the team and using it to make money while never truly improving the product.
or in layman's terms, it's to avoid those ****ers like Jeffrey Loria of the Miami Marlins.

the real problem is owners refusing to divvy up the pie in a fair manner amongst each other and then dishing out ridiculous contracts that shouldn't be on the table to begin with. they scream cost control and then wiggle through rules to go beyond what they themselves asked for and than demand better cost control measures only to do the same damn thing all over.
they wanted to stop the bad contracts so they put in the salary cap, well once the cap was in place they wanted a way to sign key guys so they started dishing out crazy 12+ year deals and now get pissed when they get stuck with them.

[Lestat]

Originally Posted by gyldenlove

Bettman knows the only weapon he has is time - the players will be wanting their salary before the owners (most of the owners) will default on their loans.

Bettman is too concerned with crushing the NHLPA to put the good of the league and it's fans into consideration.
he thought if he pushed the NHLPA they'd cave like they did last time when they missed the season and bent over for the owners.

that's one of the reason Fehr was made head of the NHLPA.
because he is too prideful to ever lay down to the NHL and will push for a really fair deal for the players.

[Beantown Bronco]

Originally Posted by Lestat

the cap floor while somewhat unfair to smaller market teams is in place to avoid squatting owners who are only interested in owning the team and using it to make money while never truly improving the product.
or in layman's terms, it's to avoid those ****ers like Jeffrey Loria of the Miami Marlins.

This is where I say: let the market work. Don't penalize 15-20 other small market owners for the bad acts of 1 or 2 owners. Do away with the cap floor and if the owners are THAT bad and aren't doing anything beside collecting money, the fans will stop going and there will be no profit. They'll be forced to keep losing money or they'll sell the team to someone who IS interested in doing it the right way and the problem will solve itself.

[RedskinBronco]

How does bettman survive 3 lockouts. I'd like to know of one CEO who has survived that situation.

Fire his ass you monkeys

[Beantown Bronco]

Originally Posted by RedskinBronco

How does bettman survive 3 lockouts. I'd like to know of one CEO who has survived that situation.

Fire his ass you monkeys

Ummmm, because he's doing EXACTLY what his employers (the owners) want him to do and ordered him to do. This was never HIS choice.