US embassy in Libya in flames, ambassador dead

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by Drek

And talking about it isn't politicizing it, it's recognizing the fact that Romney is incapable of handling foreign policy. He shoots first and aims later, with a very clear mission to start shooting at Iran day one he might get in office.

I'd like a level head in the White House, not a pandering hot head who doesn't suss out the truth before he reacts.

^ Yup. Of the many reasons why Romney isn't electable, this may be the biggest one. He's go the Bush/Cheney foreign policy team at the ready and chomping at the bit to rev up the war machine and further bankrupt our nation.

[TonyR]

As a practical matter, this episode shows how useless Romney’s main foreign policy theme has been. According to Romney, Obama “apologizes for” America, and Romney won’t. He tried to shoehorn the embassy attacks into this frame, and it didn’t work for at least two reasons. First, Obama didn’t respond to the attacks by apologizing for anything or sympathizing with the attackers, as Romney’s original statement charged, so it was blatantly false. Romney’s position that the U.S. should never “apologize for” American values is almost beside the point. Would this have made any difference to the people assaulting the embassy in Cairo or the consulate in Benghazi? Would the attacks not have happened if Romney had been conducting his own brand of thoroughly unapologetic activist foreign policy? It seems unlikely.

Romney might have legitimately questioned the security arrangements for the consulate, for example, or he could have made the fair observation that Libya’s new government is very weak and Libya as a whole has serious security problems, but that wouldn’t have translated into the easy and satisfying point-scoring that Romney seems to prefer. It wouldn’t have fit his ready-made scheme of Obama-as-Carter, but it would have spared him of most of the ridicule he’s receiving now. Now instead of portraying Obama as Carter, he has presented himself as the bumbling McCain figure of 2012.

http://www.theamericanconservative.c...-lehman-moment

[TonyR]

Romney’s comments were, to be sure, unusually noxious and indecent. But this is also what happens when campaigns get desperate. Like a gambler who’s already lost too much, they begin taking risks in the hope of making it all back. And then, more often than not, they pay the price.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ets-desperate/

[houghtam]

Here's a pretty good writeup concerning the man who allegedly produced the film. Looks like he's an Egyptian (Coptic) Christian with a history of aliases (including on Nicola Bacily) and bank fraud. He was also on probation and ordered not to use computers or the internet.

Do people still believe this is a free speech issue?

http://news.yahoo.com/california-man...223333645.html

Nakoula, who talked guardedly about his role, pleaded no contest in 2010 to federal bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was also sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and ordered not to use computers or the Internet for five years without approval from his probation officer.

[DBruleU]

If you guys who slam Romney for commenting on these tragedies to score political points voted for Obama in '08...you're a hypocrite.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/barack-obama-used-troop-deaths-to-ding-bush-mccai?fb_action_ids=10152104682320246&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210152104682320246%22%3A17239 2716230680}&action_type_map={%2210152104682320246%22%3A%22og.l ikes%22}&action_ref_map=[]

Barack Obama Used Troop Deaths To Ding Bush, McCain Support For Iraq In 2008

The Obama campaign hit Mitt Romney for using the “tragic death of one of our diplomatic officers in Libya” to “launch a political attack.” On a July 2008 appearance on CNN, then-Senator used the death of U.S. troops in Afghanistan as talking point to ding John McCain and President Bush for their support of the Iraq War.

[DBruleU]

Oh...and let's not forget when "10,000" people died in the tornado in KS. Not a peep then about this slight over estimation.

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by DBruleU

If you guys who slam Romney for commenting on these tragedies to score political points voted for Obama in '08...you're a hypocrite.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/barack-obama-used-troop-deaths-to-ding-bush-mccai?fb_action_ids=10152104682320246&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210152104682320246%22%3A17239 2716230680}&action_type_map={%2210152104682320246%22%3A%22og.l ikes%22}&action_ref_map=[]

Barack Obama Used Troop Deaths To Ding Bush, McCain Support For Iraq In 2008

The Obama campaign hit Mitt Romney for using the “tragic death of one of our diplomatic officers in Libya” to “launch a political attack.” On a July 2008 appearance on CNN, then-Senator used the death of U.S. troops in Afghanistan as talking point to ding John McCain and President Bush for their support of the Iraq War.

What if we're just slamming him for these comments because he made them in haste and they ended up turning out to be flat out wrong and completely stupid, and that they reflect poorly on how he would handle national crises as the sitting President of the United States?

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by DBruleU

If you guys who slam Romney for commenting on these tragedies to score political points voted for Obama in '08...you're a hypocrite.

I can't see the vid at work so I don't know the specifics here, but to me the issue with Romney isn't as much the "political points" as it is the dishonesty. Were Obama's comments dishonest?

[W*GS]

Innocence of Muslims: Mystery of film-maker 'Sam Bacile'

His name is more accurately "Im Becile".

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by DBruleU

If you guys who slam Romney for commenting on these tragedies to score political points voted for Obama in '08...you're a hypocrite.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/barack-obama-used-troop-deaths-to-ding-bush-mccai?fb_action_ids=10152104682320246&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210152104682320246%22%3A17239 2716230680}&action_type_map={%2210152104682320246%22%3A%22og.l ikes%22}&action_ref_map=[]

Barack Obama Used Troop Deaths To Ding Bush, McCain Support For Iraq In 2008

The Obama campaign hit Mitt Romney for using the “tragic death of one of our diplomatic officers in Libya” to “launch a political attack.” On a July 2008 appearance on CNN, then-Senator used the death of U.S. troops in Afghanistan as talking point to ding John McCain and President Bush for their support of the Iraq War.

I didn't vote for Obama, and won't vote for him or Romney, but what is wrong with what he said?

[DBruleU]

Originally Posted by houghtam

What if we're just slamming him for these comments because he made them in haste and they ended up turning out to be flat out wrong and completely stupid, and that they reflect poorly on how he would handle national crises as the sitting President of the United States?

From everything I have been reading in headlines the past day, people are upset at Romney because he came out and made a statement on foreign policy. The media wants the POTUS to dictate the foreign policy statements seeing as foreign policy is one of Obama's last remaining strong points.

[DBruleU]

Originally Posted by Rascal

I didn't vote for Obama, and won't vote for him or Romney, but what is wrong with what he said?

A lot of the narrative is that Romney is using these tragedies to politicize and score points. Fact is...Obama has done the same thing in the past. Let's not pretend Obama is above all this.

[ghwk]

Originally Posted by DBruleU

From everything I have been reading in headlines the past day, people are upset at Romney because he came out and made a statement on foreign policy. The media wants the POTUS to dictate the foreign policy statements seeing as foreign policy is one of Obama's last remaining strong points.

Good Lord we don't need to bash Ronmey, the conservative media is doing it for us! Talk about eating your own. This is proof they really don't like their candidate.

[ghwk]

Originally Posted by DBruleU

A lot of the narrative is that Romney is using these tragedies to politicize and score points. Fact is...Obama has done the same thing in the past. Let's not pretend Obama is above all this.

He may have politicized events but not when a terriorst has killed one of our folks, and he didn't criticze the sitting president during the event.

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by DBruleU

From everything I have been reading in headlines the past day, people are upset at Romney because he came out and made a statement on foreign policy. The media wants the POTUS to dictate the foreign policy statements seeing as foreign policy is one of Obama's last remaining strong points.

Really? Because everything I read yesterday supports just what I said. In fact, Obama's response was all over television yesterday:

“As president, one of the things I’ve learned is you can’t do that -- that, you know, it’s important for you to make sure that the statements that you make are backed up by the facts, and that you’ve thought through the ramifications before you make them,”

Now, today there are several articles making the fact that Romney has no foreign policy experience common knowledge, but only after he opened his mouth and proved it.

And I wouldn't call this the "media".

http://www.azcentral.com/news/politi...g-attacks.html

Romney gets bipartisan scolding for handling of Libya violence

Romney "will find out that first reports from the battlefield are always incorrect," said Richard Armitage, the former deputy Secretary of State under Republican President George W. Bush. "This should be his mantra, so he can speak in a deliberate manner, and not have to repent at his leisure later."

Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman John Kerry, a Massachusetts Democrat, called Romney's statements "about as inappropriate as anything I have ever seen at this kind of moment." The comments show "an insensitivity and lack of judgment about what is happening," he told reporters.

Commentator Peggy Noonan, a former Republican official, told Fox News that Romney wasn't "doing himself any favors" with a response bound to be seen as politically craven.

"When you step forward in the midst of a political environment and start giving statements on something dramatic and violent that has happened, you're always leaving yourself open to accusations that you are trying to exploit things politically," she said on Fox News.

You're the one trying to turn this into a partisan issue. The Romney camp stands alone.

[DBruleU]

Originally Posted by ghwk

He may have politicized events but not when a terriorst has killed one of our folks, and he didn't criticze the sitting president during the event.

Did you even listen to the clip? Clearly criticizes Bush and Mcain as well as uses his time to use the death of troops to criticize.

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by DBruleU

A lot of the narrative is that Romney is using these tragedies to politicize and score points. Fact is...Obama has done the same thing in the past. Let's not pretend Obama is above all this.

I don't see how they are similar. Obamas comments were about a decision that Bush made, which McCain supported, to go to war with Iraq when we should have been going to Afghanistan. That decision resulted in thousands of deaths. The decision had already been made, so it was appropriate to criticize.

Romney immediately went political on this tragedy while events were still unfolding. I would almost be willing to write it off, but for the fact that it illustrates how he, and/or his foreign policy team, are incompetent/amateurish.

And for Romney to state that Obama was symathetic to the attackers is absolutely asinine (see quotes below). Sure there are those in conservative circles who will believe that. I put them in the same category as those liberals who have the same level of hatred for Bush and blame him for 9-11. But the average american, who isn't blinded by hatred, will realize the stupidity of the comments and how unpresidential they are.

I’m outraged by the attacks on American diplomatic missions in Libya and Egypt and by the death of an American consulate worker [sic] in Benghazi. It’s disgraceful that the Obama administration’s first response was not to condemn attacks on our diplomatic missions, but to sympathize with those who waged the attacks.

And I don't know enough of the content of Obama's Greensville overstatement to see its relevance.

[DBruleU]

Originally Posted by houghtam

Really? Because everything I read yesterday supports just what I said. In fact, Obama's response was all over television yesterday:


Now, today there are several articles making the fact that Romney has no foreign policy experience common knowledge, but only after he opened his mouth and proved it.

And I wouldn't call this the "media".

http://www.azcentral.com/news/politi...g-attacks.html

Romney gets bipartisan scolding for handling of Libya violence







You're the one trying to turn this into a partisan issue. The Romney camp stands alone.

Yeah, Obama has never done anything like this.

"The police acted stupidly..."

And I'm always amazed when Romney is hit for not having any foreign policy experience when we elected a guy 4 years ago who had zero experience at doing anything required to be President.

He started out his presidency speaking of closing Gitmo (Fail) and then speaking in Cairo (Turned out to be a fail). Now we have the Muslim Brotherhood in control of Egypt, our closest ally in Israel we have left hanging in the wind, now we have attacks on our sovereign embassy in Cairo and consulate in Libya with pathetic responses such as "We're sorry we offended some Muslim feelings.." paraphrase of course but pretty much what was said.

So Romney issues a response AND takes questions (Most of which were stupid questions asking him why he would make this statement and upstage the POTUS). While in 2004 Kerry attacks Bush over the war but that was all patriotic dissent. POTUS then has his own press conference where he DOESNT take questions at all from the media. Have to make it to Las Vegas for those campaign stops after all.

Obama has been a major fail on FP. We need look no further then this latest F-up and his blatant refusal to meet with Netenyahu because of "time constraints..." but he has time to see Letterman net week.

Weakest President ever.

[DBruleU]

Originally Posted by Rascal

I don't see how they are similar. Obamas comments were about a decision that Bush made, which McCain supported, to go to war with Iraq when we should have been going to Afghanistan. That decision resulted in thousands of deaths. The decision had already been made, so it was appropriate to criticize.

Romney immediately went political on this tragedy while events were still unfolding. I would almost be willing to write it off, but for the fact that it illustrates how he, and/or his foreign policy team, are incompetent/amateurish.

And for Romney to state that Obama was symathetic to the attackers is absolutely asinine (see quotes below). Sure there are those in conservative circles who will believe that. I put them in the same category as those liberals who have the same level of hatred for Bush and blame him for 9-11. But the average american, who isn't blinded by hatred, will realize the stupidity of the comments and how unpresidential they are.



And I don't know enough of the content of Obama's Greensville overstatement to see its relevance.

Did you see the statement from the Embassy in Cairo? The POTUS and State Department own those statements.

When a statement surfaced from the U.S. Embassy in Cairo condemning, "the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims" and "firmly [rejecting] the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others,"

That's what he was referring to.

And yes, the two incidents are different, but the way you use those incidents to score points is not.

For effs sake...the tornado reference is "shooting first and aiming later.."

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by DBruleU

Did you even listen to the clip? Clearly criticizes Bush and Mcain as well as uses his time to use the death of troops to criticize.

As I said previously, and you have so far apparently ignored, it's more an issue of honesty.

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by DBruleU

Did you see the statement from the Embassy in Cairo? The POTUS and State Department own those statements.

When a statement surfaced from the U.S. Embassy in Cairo condemning, "the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims" and "firmly [rejecting] the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others,"

That's what he was referring to.

And yes, the two incidents are different, but the way you use those incidents to score points is not.

I know what he was referring to. I think that statement was issued by diplomats in Cairo who were fearful of the situation and made without clearance from Washington. Which is supported by the fact that the White House later disavowed the statement.

I am not aware of Obama saying anything sympathizing/apologetic as he didn't make that statement you are referencing.

[DenverBrit]

Originally Posted by DBruleU

Yeah, Obama has never done anything like this.

Romney is the one who put his foot in mouth, both sides of the aisle can see it. Deflecting to a false equivalency reeks of 'desperation.'

Politicians make asses of themselves often, but as Romney is an unknown quantity and running for POTUS, his responses to a crisis are rightly scrutinized.

He made a mistake trying to play election politics with this tragedy.

[Garcia Bronco]

Now it's supposedly happening in Yemen today.

[DBruleU]

So Obama now admits that we have lost Egypt as an ally. He admits on Telemundo interview that we can no longer consider Egypt a friend.

At this rate, we will have no allies left in the world when Obama leaves office. This guy is great at foreign policy.

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by DBruleU

Did you see the statement from the Embassy in Cairo? The POTUS and State Department own those statements.

When a statement surfaced from the U.S. Embassy in Cairo condemning, "the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims" and "firmly [rejecting] the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others,"

That's what he was referring to.

And yes, the two incidents are different, but the way you use those incidents to score points is not.

For effs sake...the tornado reference is "shooting first and aiming later.."

You are absolutely correct. Please pay attention to this timeline very closely now.

#1 - At 6:30 am local time on Tuesday, the US Embassy says they "condemn the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims and firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others."

#2 - Protests begin at 11 am local time on Tuesday.

#3 - At 6:30 pm local time on Tuesday, the US Embassy re-tweets "This morning's condemnation (issued before our protests began) still stands. As does our condemnation of unjustified breach of the Embassy."

#4 - At 9:30 pm, Hillary Clinton releases a statement condemning the attack, http://www.nationaljournal.com/natio...libya-20120912

#5 - At 10:15, Romney releases a statement, “I’m outraged by the attacks on American diplomatic missions in Libya and Egypt and by the death of an American consulate worker in Benghazi. It’s disgraceful that the Obama Administration’s first response was not to condemn attacks on our diplomatic missions, but to sympathize with those who waged the attacks.”

Romney's statement is false. IF you are holding to the notion that the embassy represents the Obama administration and what they say is just like if he said it, their first response was to denounce attacks on other people's religion (like many presidents, including Bush just 6 years ago)...BEFORE the protests even started. Their second response was to stand by their statement (denouncing attacks on other people's religion) AND to say that it was wrong for the embassy to be attacked.

Romney doesn't have one leg to stand on in this issue. He's getting blasted by all sides, and rightly so. What he did was stupid, rash, irrational, and a mere shadow of the foreign policy troubles he would cause. Yes, cause.

How you can give the guy who insulted Great Britain and made a farce out of his visit to Israel the benefit of the doubt on such an idiotic and careless statement is beyond me.