Meet Paul Ryan

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by Obushma

Get back to me when you've answered why one of Obama's idols, Frank Marshell Davis, doesn't make him a Commie. Because the argument you're using as to why Ryan is an Objectivist, is the same argument i'm using saying Obama must be a Commie.

I'm not sure why you're so hung up on this equivalence, to the extent it is one, other than it being part of a continued effort to obfuscate. I'm sure Obama was influenced by those "idols" you mention, just as Ryan was influenced by Rand. He's admitted as much, and you've been shown the quotes! On top if it, I provided you multiple articles explaining it. And yet you continue to deny and spin. I'm not sure why this is so important to you.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Obushma

Sharing has noting to do w/ Individualism vs Collectivism. Maybe this video can shed some light on the differences between the two for you?

Simple enough. Unfortunately, it does not answer by what medium is property gained? Let's put it this way: All property (and life itself, for that matter) is a gift. From whom, or what, I don't want to get into. But an individual comes into this world and has life. He didn't create it, but he has it. So, he gets liberty (at least that's our American philosophy). Why? Because he has life, he gets liberty.

Now, property comes into it and messes everything up. All property is derived from the Earth. Nobody made it. It was just there: Animal, mineral, plant, land, water etc. etc. So, who gets what? And how much do they get? Who gets to select who gets what? The one? The few? The many? Governments? Individuals? And what about value? Is he who works for his property worth as much as he whose property earns him more property? And once you decide who gets what, do they get to keep it? How do they protect it? Can they pass it on to their descendants? How much? All of it? Should it be taxed? How do we solve disputes over property? Can one end up with so much property that others are being deprived of property? Then what do we do?

See? **** gets complex. There are no easy answers or magic bullets or utopias.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by BroncoInferno

Obushma's simply invoking the time-honored "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

True.

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Simple enough. Unfortunately, it does not answer by what medium is property gained? Let's put it this way: All property (and life itself, for that matter) is a gift. From whom, or what, I don't want to get into. But an individual comes into this world and has life. He didn't create it, but he has it. So, he gets liberty (at least that's our American philosophy). Why? Because he has life, he gets liberty.

Now, property comes into it and messes everything up. All property is derived from the Earth. Nobody made it. It was just there: Animal, mineral, plant, land, water etc. etc. So, who gets what? And how much do they get? Who gets to select who gets what? The one? The few? The many? Governments? Individuals? And what about value? Is he who works for his property worth as much as he whose property earns him more property? And once you decide who gets what, do they get to keep it? How do they protect it? Can they pass it on to their descendants? How much? All of it? Should it be taxed? How do we solve disputes over property? Can one end up with so much property that others are being deprived of property? Then what do we do?

See? **** gets complex. There are no easy answers or magic bullets or utopias.

I don't have all those fancy animations, but I can do the same thing with Selfishness vs. Selflessness, and how stupid an argument it is.

Imagine a bunch of blue stick figures moving around the screen to some nice music.

Selfishness...

Can't. Be. Better. Than. Selflessness.

If you give everything you have, and everything you are...

(a hand comes and takes all of the stick figure away to another stick figure, but the head remains)

You still will always have... YOURSELF!

(dramatic part of the music)

but...

(the hand then moves over to the other stick figure and take him and all his nice things away)

If you are only looking out for yourself...

You can take everything away from someone else.

(more dramatic music)

Objectivism is crap.

[BroncoBeavis]

All this Rand and Paul talk gets confusing. Although it never occurred to me until now that Rand (Paul) was probably named after her. Not sure how I never put that together.

[Requiem]

CAuse ur Dumb

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Tax breaks. Many companies like the oil industry, the drug industry come to mind. They get tax incentives and loopholes to encourage oil exploration in countries and regions of the world they have to spend a ton to do business in. In the case of drug makers its an incentive to keep looking for new drugs.

You're either horribly misinformed or simply being dishonest if you really believe those companies NEED subsidies to accomplish any of the things you just described. On the contrary, those companies are sitting on cash surpluses so huge they literally can't find enough ways to spend the money.

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

100 billion in welfare = we get nothing for it but free loaders and graft. A culture of people who don't want to work, or think they can't, or just spend 2 yrs on it before they go back to work. It's abused and i fail to see LABF what you think I get out of those people getting welfare. I can easily see what I get out out of the corp subsidies. Airports, gas in my car, drugs to cure cancer etc etc.

Same Rush Limbaugh propaganda, different day.

Fact is, people who game or abuse the system represent only an extremely small percentage of people who are helped by those programs.

You obviously have no clue about the plight of people less fortunate than yourself, i.e., people who really need those programs, and don't give a sh*t.

For the rest of us, there's this thing called a "social conscience."

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

You're either horribly misinformed or simply being dishonest if you really believe those companies NEED subsidies to accomplish any of the things you just described. On the contrary, those companies are sitting on cash surpluses so huge they literally can't find enough ways to spend the money.





Same Rush Limbaugh propaganda, different day.

Fact is, people who game or abuse the system represent only an extremely small percentage of people who are helped by those programs.

You obviously have no clue about the plight of people less fortunate than yourself, i.e., people who really need those programs, and don't give a sh*t.

For the rest of us, there's this thing called a "social conscience."

We ought to simply start using the gun control argument for every one of these stupid notions these guys bring up.

Every time someone with a bunch of guns kills someone, the gun nuts come in and say "OH SO YOUR GONNA TAKE AWAY OUR GUNS BECAUSE OF ONE LONE IDIOT?"

Now here's our turn.

OH SO YOUR GONNA TAKE AWAY WELFARE FOR MILLIONS BECAUSE OF A FEW LAZY PEOPLE?

[cutthemdown]

I don't really think 100 or so billion is outrageous for welfare. I can understand the need for a safety net. My point is that big oil and big pharm do more for our society, then people on welfare. So 150 billion a yr or so in incentives doesn't seem to bad.

LABF you have to understand that if they took them away our oil companies lose the ability to compete with foreign oil firms. Especially China state run oil.

We all know a true free market free from govt manipulation isn't feasible.

Just like money to farmers for drought. Many of the farmers helped are big time rich. But the govt wants the industry robust because its important to the country.

Haven't read up much on Obamas subsidy idea for that, and what larger piece of legislation its attached to. But i don't hear you mad he want to give them money.

Don't let your blind hate for thinking oil companies are evil blind you to the fact we want them to have huge cash reserves. It puts them in a good position to create jobs and compete with foreign firms whose govt are also helping them, and sometimes even the ones running the show. In Africa for instance our oil companies would not be able to compete without this help from our govt.

Are you going to say the oil companies have not created jobs. I think we all know that is not true. The oil companies are employing? Some say almost 10 million with 150 thousand new oil jobs in 2011. I looked for numbers and I figured why post ones from the oil industry you will just say they are lying. So whatever believe if if you want but I personally know a lot of people that work at the refineries in So Calif, cousins telling me Wyoming has jobs, they are working oil fields. And a bunch of electricians i know went to is it N Dakota? whichever Dakota blowing up for oil to work.

So not only oil jobs, but many other jobs that support oil. Hell its safe to say without big oil the economy would be in friggin shambles.

Complain about all the tax on gas, it wouldn't be that bad if it wasn't for that.

[cutthemdown]

I have a big social conscious. I just played a free event with my band for a kids charity on my pier in my city. Check out my avatar there it is poser. I believe that we the people are the best when it comes to helping others. Once again the private sector better at something then the govt.

Stop thinking that because someone doesn't believe in a culture of welfare, or the govt trying to do everything, that I have no heart or don't care.

I have proven over and over in my life that i do have a heart and I do care. When there is someone on the Mane and we are doing an effort to help them I pitch in. Almost every time unless I am broke. When Crazy got sent on a vacation I sent in my contribution. When people ask my band to play for free for charity I talk them into it and we charge 1200-2500 an event now LABF, and we get it.

So I don't want to hear that I am some person that doesn't care if people suffer. I try and help. Hell my band played MLK park for their celebration this summer LABF, all black area and they love us, and we love them. I love my city and my country and I do what I can in the community. We just have different opinions on govt. Stop thinking that means you are better then me as a person.

[Jetmeck]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

I don't really think 100 or so billion is outrageous for welfare. I can understand the need for a safety net. My point is that big oil and big pharm do more for our society, then people on welfare. So 150 billion a yr or so in incentives doesn't seem to bad.

absurd non sense....the most profitable companies on the planet don't need corporate welfare.

in other threads you rail against welfare for poor people.............

This is basically proving why anything you post is probably not worth reading.............in short you are a joke.

Don't blame me for pointing out the obvious........you posted that
ass backwards logic that poor people need healthcare and foood less than rich, filthy rich corporations need tax breaks.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

I don't really think 100 or so billion is outrageous for welfare. I can understand the need for a safety net. My point is that big oil and big pharm do more for our society, then people on welfare. So 150 billion a yr or so in incentives doesn't seem to bad.

What a ridiculous (and morally bankrupt) argument.

You're comparing the people in society who need the most help to the people who need the least.

In any event, it's all about opportunity and keeping the playing field level.

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

LABF you have to understand that if they took them away our oil companies lose the ability to compete with foreign oil firms. Especially China state run oil.
.

That's complete and utter horsesh*t.

Did you not hear what I just said?

Those companies are sitting on cash surpluses so enormous they literally can't find enough ways to spend the money.

[cutthemdown]

No LABF I can't hear you. All the BS coming out your mouth when you talk garbles everything.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

No LABF I can't hear you. All the BS coming out your mouth when you talk garbles everything.

I'll take that as a "no, I can't deny what you said in your last post."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

[cutthemdown]

Figures people calling out my character don't want to talk about what you personally do for other people or your community. They want to talk about what your govt can do for you. They claim we are the ones who forget what Lincoln was about, but are any of you anywhere near what JFK talked about?

No you just want your govt to do every little thing.

Remember liberals ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

[Drek]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

I have a big social conscious. I just played a free event with my band for a kids charity on my pier in my city. Check out my avatar there it is poser. I believe that we the people are the best when it comes to helping others. Once again the private sector better at something then the govt.

Stop thinking that because someone doesn't believe in a culture of welfare, or the govt trying to do everything, that I have no heart or don't care.

I have proven over and over in my life that i do have a heart and I do care. When there is someone on the Mane and we are doing an effort to help them I pitch in. Almost every time unless I am broke. When Crazy got sent on a vacation I sent in my contribution. When people ask my band to play for free for charity I talk them into it and we charge 1200-2500 an event now LABF, and we get it.

So I don't want to hear that I am some person that doesn't care if people suffer. I try and help. Hell my band played MLK park for their celebration this summer LABF, all black area and they love us, and we love them. I love my city and my country and I do what I can in the community. We just have different opinions on govt. Stop thinking that means you are better then me as a person.

What about the communities that are just poor across the board and doesn't have someone around to give charity?

Or the starving family who suffers in silence and no one notices?

What you're saying is that if you need help you've got to be willing to beg others for it, or you can screw off. Hell of a social concience you've got there.

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Figures people calling out my character don't want to talk about what you personally do for other people or your community. They want to talk about what your govt can do for you. They claim we are the ones who forget what Lincoln was about, but are any of you anywhere near what JFK talked about?

No you just want your govt to do every little thing.

Remember liberals ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

So charitable work is a competition now?

Tell you what, I do landscaping at an orphanage, donate to a Native American school that helps to postpone the destruction of an entire culture, donate to local animal shelters, and volunteer to pick up trash on street sides.

I do that after spending 50-60 hours a week (at a minimum) preventing people from getting cancer by delineating and cleaning up hazardous waste.

So some people around do actually live the "what you can do for your country" mindset.

[TonyR]

Gallup: public reaction to the Ryan pick "among the least positive" that "Gallup has recorded in recent elections."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/156545/Re...gn=syndication

[peacepipe]

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/20...ew.php?ref=fpb

aparrently ryan isn't ready for primetime. what's worse,he's being interviewed on FIX news. he was tripping over himself trying to not answer the question. if this what he's like,he'll get pummeled in the VP debate.

[Rohirrim]

I haven't heard any of the media question whether Ryan is prepared to be one step away from the presidency. He's had a very undistinguished career in Washington and zero foreign policy experience. His entire notoriety is based on the budget plan he came up with, and now he and Romney are running away from that plan. So what's the point?

[peacepipe]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

I haven't heard any of the media question whether Ryan is prepared to be one step away from the presidency. He's had a very undistinguished career in Washington and zero foreign policy experience. His entire notoriety is based on the budget plan he came up with, and now he and Romney are running away from that plan. So what's the point?

you would think after yrs of running for office,where he was questioned repeatedly on bain/taxes, that romney would've been prepared to answer question on those issues. as we've all seen he wasn't ready. now ryan who as you point out is famous for his budget bill,is running from it. you would think,assuming you're running a competent campaign,that you would be prepared for the scrutiny of picking ryan. you would think that they would have tried to look ahead & be prepared for it. it seems like romney is being impulsive & not looking ahead on the decisions he makes.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by peacepipe

you would think after yrs of running for office,where he was questioned repeatedly on bain/taxes, that romney would've been prepared to answer question on those issues. as we've all seen he wasn't ready. now ryan who as you point out is famous for his budget bill,is running from it. you would think,assuming you're running a competent campaign,that you would be prepared for the scrutiny of picking ryan. you would think that they would have tried to look ahead & be prepared for it. it seems like romney is being impulsive & not looking ahead on the decisions he makes.

I'm convinced that the only reason Romney picked Ryan is money. Ryan is the biggest tea party fund raiser out there, connected to the Koch Bros. and all the rest. He has access to a $400 million dollar funding stream, by most media reckoning. Romney couldn't resist that smell of money.

[peacepipe]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

I'm convinced that the only reason Romney picked Ryan is money. Ryan is the biggest tea party fund raiser out there, connected to the Koch Bros. and all the rest. He has access to a $400 million dollar funding stream, by most media reckoning. Romney couldn't resist that smell of money.

makes sense, the ryan pick doesn't get you any points with independents,women,latinos/hispanics. he at best makes wisconsin a possible toss up state & he'll likely lose florida as a result.

[Jetmeck]

Originally Posted by peacepipe

makes sense, the ryan pick doesn't get you any points with independents,women,latinos/hispanics. he at best makes wisconsin a possible toss up state & he'll likely lose florida as a result.

well exactly his major selling point is he supposedly a "fiscal conservative" until you look at his vote for everything in the Bush
era that put us in debt and he wants to kill off medicare to pay for that debt and to finance more tax cuts for the rich.

his so called one positive thing is actually a huge mistake..........just another Romney mistake.....so what's new ?