Breaking down the AFC West

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Bob's your Information Minister

We'll, they're good against the run, our defense was good against the run, and we had a good defense, two years in a row now.

I'm not sure what the **** your point is. They are good at their jobs. They are not really asked to be pass rushers.

My point is that if you want a one dimensional run stopper, you trade a 5th for him (Bunkley), grab him as a UDFA (Mike Devito), or something like that. You don't draft him with the #3 or #5 pick.

Look at the top 7 run defending 3-4 DEs from last year. 4 of them are also awesome at rushing the passer. Of the 3 that aren't, one was a UDFA and the other 2 are top five picks. Guess who those 2 are.

I guess my point is that 400HZ's assesment of Dorsey and Jackson as busts isn't far from reality.

[KCStud]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

My point is that if you want a one dimensional run stopper, you trade a 5th for him (Bunkley), grab him as a UDFA (Mike Devito), or something like that. You don't draft him with the #3 or #5 pick.

Look at the top 7 run defending 3-4 DEs from last year. 4 of them are also awesome at rushing the passer. Of the 3 that aren't, one was a UDFA and the other 2 are top five picks. Guess who those 2 are.

I guess my point is that 400HZ's assesment of Dorsey and Jackson as busts isn't far from reality.

Pioli didn't draft Dorsey. And I think Allen Bailey is the better than both of them. He's gonna be a great player.

[DBroncos4life]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

My point is that if you want a one dimensional run stopper, you trade a 5th for him (Bunkley), grab him as a UDFA (Mike Devito), or something like that. You don't draft him with the #3 or #5 pick.

Look at the top 7 run defending 3-4 DEs from last year. 4 of them are also awesome at rushing the passer. Of the 3 that aren't, one was a UDFA and the other 2 are top five picks. Guess who those 2 are.

I guess my point is that 400HZ's assesment of Dorsey and Jackson as busts isn't far from reality.

Originally Posted by KCStud

Pioli didn't draft Dorsey. And I think Allen Bailey is the better than both of them. He's gonna be a great player.

what

[boltaneer]

Originally Posted by Raider9175

We shall see< Smiling> . You will find out the hard way what Ron Wolfe knows.(recommended Mckenzie to the Raiders) Reggie MCkenzie knows who can play and who can't. He did a great job adding even more talent to an emerging Wr corps. That position is loaded.

Sure, you can make a case that there's talent there.

It's all unproven though. It's ridiculous to say this is a position of strength until they prove it.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by boltaneer

Sure, you can make a case that there's talent there.

It's all unproven though. It's ridiculous to say this is a position of strength until they prove it.

raiderjoe frankly lives a delusional life..
if they are fast they must be great players..

 

[400HZ]

Originally Posted by Bob's your Information Minister

Uh, Jackson and Dorsey were two of the top ranked DEs against the run last year.

Nice rationalizing. And to be fair, Jackson's advertised ceiling wasn't much higher than where he's at now. At least he'll have a long if totally unspectacular career as a rotational player. Poe on the other hand might get cut during rookie mini camp.

[Raider9175]

Originally Posted by boltaneer

Sure, you can make a case that there's talent there.

It's all unproven though. It's ridiculous to say this is a position of strength until they prove it.

Don't look now but that's another Raider Wr running past the Chargers secondary. C Palmer and Raiders WR corp owned the Chargers secondary. (that was a one dimensional offense)

YEs the Raiders defense was even more brutal than the Chargers D the last game of the season. (why they brought in a new defensive staff)

The fact is with a healthy Raiders running game the Chargers don't win that game. First of all Raiders don't settle for field goals instead of scoring touchdowns. Second It makes it even easier(if that's possible against Chargers secondary that was simply over matched) to get behind a secondary when DMC killing them all day in the running game. Third, with the addition of Wr Juron criner and return of DMC- the Raiders are one of the top red zone teams.

As a Charger fan you shouldn't even open your mouth about the Raiders Wr corp, instead you should worry more about improving that porous secondary.

[Raider9175]

Originally Posted by lonestar

raiderjoe frankly lives a delusional life..
if they are fast they must be great players..

 

Denarius Moore , DHb and Jacoby Ford all might be incredible young but everyone of those widereceiver are proven players. Not to mention emerging big time players that can score from anywhere when ever they touch it.

The Lockout last year had the most effect on one of the fastest players in the game(Jacoby ford- had a variety of leg injuries that can be attributed to no offseason workouts. A healthy J ford in 2011 would have put up some big numbers.


NOw the fact is Juron Criner is going to be pushing those three for playing time. He's that talented and he brings something to table all WCO offense must have. A reliable big WR option with great hands who can get the key cat5ches when you need that first down.( This guy isn't a speed threat by any means but he a physical presence who going to do just as much damage).

Witgh the talent Raiders have on offense I expect this Raider offense to be a top five offense in 2012. Eventually (next season or the year after) this should be the number 1 offense in football. It has that much talent and all the key parts are incredible young.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by KCStud

No it's not half their job. Their first priority is stop the run. Second is to occupy blockers to the OLB's can get sacks.

At least Jackson and Dorsey don't completely suck like Robert Ayers. He can't rush the passer or stop the run.

That's not really true. In 2010, Dorsey was asked to rush the passer more times than Hali was.

Robert Ayers had the same number of sacks (6) last season, in 389 pass rushing snaps, as Dorsey and Jackson have in their entire careers, combined (in 2266 pass rushing snaps). He's also pretty good against the run.

You know how Jackson took time to develop and turn into a somewhat worthwhile player? Same thing with Ayers, only Ayers is a better all around player.

[Play2win]

Originally Posted by vancejohnson82

oh wow....a Raiders fan talking about a high ceiling and speed....

shocking

You know its always a high ceiling, when you dug yourself in a ditch the size of the Grand Canyon.

[Irish Stout]

Originally Posted by KCStud

Pioli didn't draft Dorsey. And I think Allen Bailey is the better than both of them. He's gonna be a great player.

Again, your level of comprehension flabbergasts. So, when you falsely argue that Ayers is a bad player, should we respond: "So?!?! Fox and Elway didn't draft him." No.

Originally Posted by KCStud

No it's not half their job. Their first priority is stop the run. Second is to occupy blockers to the OLB's can get sacks.

At least Jackson and Dorsey don't completely suck like Robert Ayers. He can't rush the passer or stop the run.

Ayers, while not amazing by any stretch, has shown to be a solid defender from the DE position. Which is his natural position and he contributed to many run stops and a few sacks from that position. When McD had him at LB, he was clearly playing from a weak position for him and he struggled mightily.

No one with a decent football IQ would argue that Ayers completely sucks from the DE. He is actually decent from that spot. Not the best, not the worst and probably more solid on pass rush than Jackson and Dorsey combined.

[JLesSPE]

Originally Posted by DBroncos4life

what

I thought Dorsey was drafted in '08 and Pioli was hired in '09.

[barryr]

The division is the Broncos to lose. Only the Chargers are the team that can threaten the Broncos IMO.

Manning needs to stay healthy and the defense needs to improve of course, which I think is a real possibility.

The Chargers have the 2nd best QB in the division, but their defense has had troubles and Turner seems to have more underachieving type teams than anything else.

The Chiefs have accumulated more talent, but let's face it, they are going nowhere with Cassell at QB. He just isn't the QB that really worried anybody. To win more than 8 games, they will need to win many ugly type games and that is hard to do for a full season.

The Raiders have a rookie head coach, who has never been a head coach at any level. They have many holes and Palmer just isn't very good anymore and they have lost some depth as well.

[Irish Stout]

Originally Posted by JLesSPE

I thought Dorsey was drafted in '08 and Pioli was hired in '09.

I think his point of What had more to do with the non-sequitor. But perhaps he knows an internet sports argument rule I am unfamiliar with. Let me check the rule book...

Ok, I found it. Here:

Rule 12.3(a) - Use of Non Sequential Arguments Where Relevance Appears Lacking - Exceptions:

"When arguing the strengths and weaknesses of any team, it is always fair for a homer to point out that certain players were not drafted by the current FO. In such a situation it automatically nullifies any weaknesses of that player and strengthens the homer's argument."

[bronco militia]

Originally Posted by Irish Stout

I think his point of What had more to do with the non-sequitor. But perhaps he knows an internet sports argument rule I am unfamiliar with. Let me check the rule book...

Ok, I found it. Here:

Rule 12.3(a) - Use of Non Sequential Arguments Where Relevance Appears Lacking - Exceptions:

"When arguing the strengths and weaknesses of any team, it is always fair for a homer to point out that certain players were not drafted by the current FO. In such a situation it automatically nullifies any weaknesses of that player and strengthens the homer's argument."

damn it!!

[JLesSPE]

Originally Posted by Irish Stout

I think his point of What had more to do with the non-sequitor. But perhaps he knows an internet sports argument rule I am unfamiliar with. Let me check the rule book...

Ok, I found it. Here:

Rule 12.3(a) - Use of Non Sequential Arguments Where Relevance Appears Lacking - Exceptions:

"When arguing the strengths and weaknesses of any team, it is always fair for a homer to point out that certain players were not drafted by the current FO. In such a situation it automatically nullifies any weaknesses of that player and strengthens the homer's argument."

Gotcha, I totally missed the point. Thanks for pointing that out. Carry on

[Raider9175]

Originally Posted by barryr

The division is the Broncos to lose. Only the Chargers are the team that can threaten the Broncos IMO.

Manning needs to stay healthy and the defense needs to improve of course, which I think is a real possibility.

The Chargers have the 2nd best QB in the division, but their defense has had troubles and Turner seems to have more underachieving type teams than anything else.

The Chiefs have accumulated more talent, but let's face it, they are going nowhere with Cassell at QB. He just isn't the QB that really worried anybody. To win more than 8 games, they will need to win many ugly type games and that is hard to do for a full season.

The Raiders have a rookie head coach, who has never been a head coach at any level. They have many holes and Palmer just isn't very good anymore and they have lost some depth as well.

Only thing the Bronco and the Chargers will be competing for is last place in the Afc West, or which team drafts first.
Neither team has a chance to win the division. It's a two team race between the Chiefs and the Raiders. Both those teams have the two most talent in the division. Not even close.

[barryr]

Originally Posted by Raider9175

Only thing Bronco and Chargers will be competing for is last place in the Afc West or who drafts first.
Neither team has a chance to win the division. It's a two team race between the Chiefs and the Raiders. That whose the two most talented teams are in the division.

Whatever. Neither team has a QB worth a crap nor a good enough defense to carry a weak QB.

[Irish Stout]

Originally Posted by Raider9175

Only thing Bronco and Chargers will be competing for is last place in the Afc West or which team drafts first.
Neither team has a chance to win the division. It's a two team race between the Chiefs and the Raiders. Both those teams have the two most talent in the division.

I've seen Faider Joes like you claiming the same thing for the past 9 years or so. Yawn.

[Kaylore]

Originally Posted by Raider9175

Only thing the Bronco and the Chargers will be competing for is last place in the Afc West, or which team drafts first.
Neither team has a chance to win the division. It's a two team race between the Chiefs and the Raiders. Both those teams have the two most talent in the division. Not even close.

So Raider 9175 is predicting that the Raiders and Chiefs will be potentially winning the division and the Chargers and Broncos will be the two worst teams in the NFL next year.

[Raider9175]

Originally Posted by barryr

Whatever. Neither team has a QB worth a crap nor a good enough defense to carry a weak QB.

Carson Palmer 199 completed 328 attempts 61% completion percentaGE 2,753 YARDS 8.4 average yard per reception.

Now that with him coming off his couch week 7 cold, Never played with the team, Not knowing the plays, The players- chemistry or timing, and didn't have his stud Rb to lean on.. Tell me Genius what QB would have done any better under the same circumstances.

Now C Palmer playing in a more Qb friendly offense, Gets to play with DMC, has a whole off season to get on same page with his Wr corp and his weapons on offense were further upgraded.

This is by far the most explosive weapons C Palmer has ever had on offense. He going to have his best year he ever had in the NFl(there is that much talent on the Raiders offense)


Raiders would have run away from the division if there weapons stayed healthy on offense and that is without a defense. Raiders defense will be alot better in 2012.(better coaching and schemes)

[Raider9175]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

So Raider 9175 is predicting that the Raiders and Chiefs will be potentially winning the division and the Chargers and Broncos will be the two worst teams in the NFL next year.

Where did I say the Chargers and the Broncos would be the worst team in football. Neither team is winning the division. (that what I said) The funny thing is I see a lot of Bronco fans predicting 11 wins next year. Where? In your dreams. I need a good laugh today- tell me the games your winning next season, looking at this schedule.

Week 01
Pittsburgh Steelers
Pittsburgh Steelers
Sun, 09/09 at 6:20 PM MDT
Home:
Sports Authority Field at Mile High

TV: NBC

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 02
Atlanta Falcons
@ Atlanta Falcons
Mon, 09/17 at 6:30 PM MDT
Away:
Georgia Dome

TV: ESPN

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 03
Houston Texans
Houston Texans
Sun, 09/23 at 2:25 PM MDT
Home:
Sports Authority Field at Mile High

TV: CBS

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 04
Oakland Raiders
Oakland Raiders
Sun, 09/30 at 2:05 PM MDT
Home:
Sports Authority Field at Mile High

TV: CBS

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 05
New England Patriots
@ New England Patriots
Sun, 10/07 at 2:25 PM MDT
Away:
Gillette Stadium

TV: CBS

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 06
San Diego Chargers
@ San Diego Chargers
Mon, 10/15 at 6:30 PM MDT
Away:
Qualcomm Stadium

TV: ESPN

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 07
Bye
Week 08
New Orleans Saints
New Orleans Saints
Sun, 10/28 at 6:20 PM MDT
Home:
Sports Authority Field at Mile High

TV: NBC

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 09
Cincinnati Bengals
@ Cincinnati Bengals
Sun, 11/04 at 11:00 AM MST
Away:
Paul Brown Stadium

TV: CBS

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 10
Carolina Panthers
@ Carolina Panthers
Sun, 11/11 at 11:00 AM MST
Away:
Bank of America Stadium

TV: CBS

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 11
San Diego Chargers
San Diego Chargers
Sun, 11/18 at 2:25 PM MST
Home:
Sports Authority Field at Mile High

TV: CBS

WATCH ON DEMAND
Week 12
Kansas City Chiefs
@ Kansas City Chiefs
Sun, 11/25 at 11:00 AM MST
Away:
Arrowhead Stadium

TV: CBS

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 13
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Sun, 12/02 at 2:05 PM MST
Home:
Sports Authority Field at Mile High

TV: FOX

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 14
Oakland Raiders
@ Oakland Raiders
Thu, 12/06 at 6:20 PM MST
Away:
O.co Coliseum

TV: NFL NETWORK

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 15
Baltimore Ravens
@ Baltimore Ravens
Sun, 12/16 at 11:00 AM MST
Away:
M&T Bank Stadium

TV: CBS

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 16
Cleveland Browns
Cleveland Browns
Sun, 12/23 at 2:05 PM MST
Home:
Sports Authority Field at Mile High

TV: CBS

WATCH ON DEMAND

Week 17
Kansas City Chiefs
Kansas City Chiefs
Sun, 12/30 at 2:25 PM MST
Home:
Sports Authority Field at Mile High


I see Bronco record 6-10. That isn't winning the divison.

[Irish Stout]

The 4 easiest to predict as potential losses are Patriots, Ravens and likely one against San Diego and one against the Chiefs. I think there are a lot of question mark games - the Houstons, the Panthers, the Saints, and always division games. However, I think we beat Pittsburgh (we've had their number the last several years in Denver). I think anywhere from 8 to 12 wins is a good possibility. Of course, we know nothing about this team under a new Def. Coordinator and a new QB, so until preseason is over, its extremely hard to narrow down a solid prediction.

Also, in the NFL, predictions are like a-holes, everyones got one and they all smell like **** to everyone else. So I don't expect you to like this Joe, but I can about guarantee your's stinks to me as well.

[JJG]

Originally Posted by KCStud

No it's not half their job. Their first priority is stop the run. Second is to occupy blockers to the OLB's can get sacks.

At least Jackson and Dorsey don't completely suck like Robert Ayers. He can't rush the passer or stop the run.

last season:
Ayers had 2 more sacks than Dorsey and Jackson combined.
Ayers had 1 more forced fumble than Dorsey and Jackson combined.
Ayers had 1 more fumble recovery than Dorsey and Jackson combined.

Ayers averaged .375 and .75 fewer tackles per game than Dorsey and Jackson respectively.

[barryr]

Originally Posted by Raider9175

Carson Palmer 199 completed 328 attempts 61% completion percentaGE 2,753 YARDS 8.4 average yard per reception.

Now that with him coming off his couch week 7 cold, Never played with the team, Not knowing the plays, The players- chemistry or timing, and didn't have his stud Rb to lean on.. Tell me Genius what QB would have done any better under the same circumstances.

Now C Palmer playing in a more Qb friendly offense, Gets to play with DMC, has a whole off season to get on same page with his Wr corp and his weapons on offense were further upgraded.

This is by far the most explosive weapons C Palmer has ever had on offense. He going to have his best year he ever had in the NFl(there is that much talent on the Raiders offense)


Raiders would have run away from the division if there weapons stayed healthy on offense and that is without a defense. Raiders defense will be alot better in 2012.(better coaching and schemes)

He also threw more picks than TD's last year and his former team, Cincy, played much better last year than they did in years with Palmer at QB. Yeah, I'm worried. Manning will love playing against that Raider secondary btw