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Old 06-24-2012, 03:55 PM   #151
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You know, when I first looked at the link before I made my first reply in this thread, I saw that too. Then I got to thinking and knew that it couldn't be right, so I did a little more research and found out the link was wrong or just failed to include all of his numbers. But me, unlike you, used my head first instead of jumping out and just sounding like an idiot in this thread.

Admit you were dumb, stupid and fooled by the link and just move on with your pathetic life. Geez.
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Old 06-24-2012, 03:56 PM   #152
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He rushed the passer as well as any sack-specialist in the league and his run-stuffing was impeccable. IIRC, PFF's rating system had him ranked highest last year. That is with a broken hand and the usual rookie fatigue, mind you. A healthy Von Miler is quite clearly one of the best linebackers in the entire league and arguably the best. Anybody who has watched him play should know that already.
Pride is many an mans/girls (since we did not know for sure which) down fall.
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Old 06-24-2012, 07:12 PM   #153
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He rushed the passer as well as any sack-specialist in the league and his run-stuffing was impeccable. IIRC, PFF's rating system had him ranked highest last year. That is with a broken hand and the usual rookie fatigue, mind you. A healthy Von Miler is quite clearly one of the best linebackers in the entire league and arguably the best. Anybody who has watched him play should know that already.
He's not better than DeMarcus Ware right now, no matter how you try to spin it. Ware is the best OLB in the league by far.
On top of Ware, how can you say he's better than Terrell Suggs or LaMarr Woodley?

And idk if you are just specifying LB's who are sack specialist, but if it's simply pass rushers, than Von is not as good of a pass rusher as Jared Allen.
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Old 06-24-2012, 09:58 PM   #154
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He's not better than DeMarcus Ware right now, no matter how you try to spin it. Ware is the best OLB in the league by far.
On top of Ware, how can you say he's better than Terrell Suggs or LaMarr Woodley?

And idk if you are just specifying LB's who are sack specialist, but if it's simply pass rushers, than Von is not as good of a pass rusher as Jared Allen.


just one more GAFF for studly..

Code:
Active
# 	Name 	Pos. 	Ht. 	Wt. 	Age 	Exp. 	College
69 	Allen, Jared 	DE 	6-6 	270	30	9 	Idaho State
an old adage might apply here
" Better to be thought a fool,
than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt!"
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:05 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by KCStud View Post
He's not better than DeMarcus Ware right now, no matter how you try to spin it. Ware is the best OLB in the league by far.
On top of Ware, how can you say he's better than Terrell Suggs or LaMarr Woodley?

And idk if you are just specifying LB's who are sack specialist, but if it's simply pass rushers, than Von is not as good of a pass rusher as Jared Allen.
Jared Allen is a defensive end!Of course he won't have as many sacks, genius. And so what if he won't get as many sacks as Jared Allen. Dangit! We may have to settle for sacks in the teens! You showed us!

And Demarcus ware plays DE in a 3-4. But just for fun, here are some stats from Miller and Ware's last year:

Ware: 19.5 sacks, 26 tackles for a loss, 2 passes defended 2 forced fumbles

Miller: 11.5 sacks, 21 tackles for a loss, 4 passes defended 2 forced fumbles.

Miller missed a game due to injury, played four games with a cast on one hand, plays OLB in a 4-3, not a 3-4, so he drops back more and, oh yeah, he was a FREAKING ROOKIE.

So saying our rookie isn't as good as two of the best players at their position, both of which are looking at probable HOF careers isn't really much smack talk - especially when he's already pretty close.

Really, what's your point KC? You keep moving the goal posts. First it was Miller wasn't that good, then it was your stupid linebacker was better, then it was DT is better than LT, then it was Miller isn't as good as Allen and Ware.

I think you're afraid to admit that Von Miller is awesome.

Pretending he isn't won't make him go away, Sheepstud.

Last edited by Kaylore; 06-24-2012 at 10:09 PM..
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:13 PM   #156
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Jared Allen is a defensive end!Of course he won't have as many sacks, genius. And so what if he won't get as many sacks as Jared Allen. Dangit! We may have to settle for sacks in the teens! You showed us!

And Demarcus ware plays DE in a 3-4. But just for fun, here are some stats from Miller and Ware's last year:

Ware: 19.5 sacks, 26 tackles for a loss, 2 passes defended 2 forced fumbles

Miller: 11.5 sacks, 21 tackles for a loss, 4 passes defended 2 forced fumbles.

Miller missed a game due to injury, played four games with a cast on one hand, plays OLB in a 4-3, not a 3-4, so he drops back more and, oh yeah, he was a FREAKING ROOKIE.

So saying our rookie isn't as good as two of the best players at their position, both of which are looking at probable HOF careers isn't really much smack talk - especially when he's already pretty close.

Really, what's your point KC? You keep moving the goal posts. First it was Miller wasn't that good, then it was your stupid linebacker was better, then it was DT is better than LT, then it was Miller isn't as good as Allen and Ware.

I think you're afraid to admit that Von Miller is awesome.

Pretending he isn't won't make him go away, Sheepstud.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:13 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Kaylore View Post
Jared Allen is a defensive end!Of course he won't have as many sacks, genius. And so what if he won't get as many sacks as Jared Allen. Dangit! We may have to settle for sacks in the teens! You showed us!

And Demarcus ware plays DE in a 3-4. But just for fun, here are some stats from Miller and Ware's last year:

Ware: 19.5 sacks, 26 tackles for a loss, 2 passes defended 2 forced fumbles

Miller: 11.5 sacks, 21 tackles for a loss, 4 passes defended 2 forced fumbles.

Miller missed a game due to injury, played four games with a cast on one hand, plays OLB in a 4-3, not a 3-4, so he drops back more and, oh yeah, he was a FREAKING ROOKIE.

So saying our rookie isn't as good as two of the best players at their position, both of which are looking at probable HOF careers isn't really much smack talk - especially when he's already pretty close.

Really, what's your point KC? You keep moving the goal posts. First it was Miller wasn't that good, then it was your stupid linebacker was better, then it was DT is better than LT, then it was Miller isn't as good as Allen and Ware.

I think you're afraid to admit that Von Miller is awesome.

Pretending he isn't won't make him go away, Sheepstud.
I see you just flew by my post without reading or comprehending it, as usual. If you actually read the post, you'd see that I said made the distinction between a LB and a pure pass rusher. The poster made the assumption Von was the best pure pass rusher, which is false.

If you read any of the post, I clarified more than once that right now Von is not the best OLB in the league, because he isn't. Is he good? Yeah of course he is, but is he the BEST in the NFL? NO.
And last year Tamba was more of a force overall than Von. He was just as good of a run stopper and he got more pressure on QB's than Von. So again, right now Tamba deserves to be ahead of Von until Von goes out and proves otherwise.

And I love that this board makes excuses for Von. Yes he was hurt. That's how the game goes.
KC lost a ton of their key players to injury last year and would have won the division with those missing players, but ya know what Gaylore? THAT'S HOW IT GOES.

And I'm pretty sure a broken hand wasn't the reason Von got beat up in the run game by McCluster. There were several times Von wasn't in the right position to make a play or took a bad angle. I saw it multiple times. McCluster beat Von so many times that Von tried tripping him because he couldn't stop him.

The point of this post is that people saying that last year or even right now, Von is NOT the best LB in the league. He's not the best pure pass rusher in the league. He isn't the best 3-4 OLB in the league. And saying he is THE best in the NFL is pure homerism.

Oh and btw. Jared Allen is better than Von as a pass rusher and in coverage. That's just how good Allen is. And he's a DE.

Last edited by KCStud; 06-25-2012 at 12:19 AM..
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:28 AM   #158
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Tamba Hali's rush-defense has been mediocre/average with a spike in improvement last season -- don't say he is "just as good of a run-stopper" because he flat out is not. Hali is another hybrid player and a guy who depends on burst as he is a slow player if asked to race (4.9/40); he is not going to be as good roaming against the run as a guy who flies about the field with the speed of a cornerback.

Von Miller did not miss a single tackle last year. Per PFF, whose calculation you can take or leave, he was the highest rated defensive player in the league. Why? Because he can make tackles look like tools, stuff running lanes, and roam to track down the ball with ease. His ability to both pass rush and stop the run is what puts him up for debate as the best. Ware, Allen, et al, are not exactly the best of comparisons, at least with not first taking into consideration these guys often play at the line in the DE position. Miller's competition comes from Suggs, Matthews, etc. I think he blows the one-dimensional Matthews out of the water; with Suggs there is debate. With Hali... Hali is a great player, but Miller's impeccable run defense and range on the field clearly makes him a better linebacker in my opinion.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:32 AM   #159
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Jared Allen is a defensive end!Of course he won't have as many sacks, genius. And so what if he won't get as many sacks as Jared Allen. Dangit! We may have to settle for sacks in the teens! You showed us!

And Demarcus ware plays DE in a 3-4. But just for fun, here are some stats from Miller and Ware's last year:

Ware: 19.5 sacks, 26 tackles for a loss, 2 passes defended 2 forced fumbles

Miller: 11.5 sacks, 21 tackles for a loss, 4 passes defended 2 forced fumbles.

Miller missed a game due to injury, played four games with a cast on one hand, plays OLB in a 4-3, not a 3-4, so he drops back more and, oh yeah, he was a FREAKING ROOKIE.

So saying our rookie isn't as good as two of the best players at their position, both of which are looking at probable HOF careers isn't really much smack talk - especially when he's already pretty close.

Really, what's your point KC? You keep moving the goal posts. First it was Miller wasn't that good, then it was your stupid linebacker was better, then it was DT is better than LT, then it was Miller isn't as good as Allen and Ware.

I think you're afraid to admit that Von Miller is awesome.

Pretending he isn't won't make him go away, Sheepstud.
This all started out that Miller isn't the best LB in his draft class. Aldon Smith, Kerrigan , and the KC LB . He just keeps deflecting all while getting sodimized in arguments.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:05 AM   #160
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I see you just flew by my post without reading or comprehending it, as usual. If you actually read the post, you'd see that I said made the distinction between a LB and a pure pass rusher. The poster made the assumption Von was the best pure pass rusher, which is false.

If you read any of the post, I clarified more than once that right now Von is not the best OLB in the league, because he isn't. Is he good? Yeah of course he is, but is he the BEST in the NFL? NO.
And last year Tamba was more of a force overall than Von. He was just as good of a run stopper and he got more pressure on QB's than Von. So again, right now Tamba deserves to be ahead of Von until Von goes out and proves otherwise.

And I love that this board makes excuses for Von. Yes he was hurt. That's how the game goes.
KC lost a ton of their key players to injury last year and would have won the division with those missing players, but ya know what Gaylore? THAT'S HOW IT GOES.

And I'm pretty sure a broken hand wasn't the reason Von got beat up in the run game by McCluster. There were several times Von wasn't in the right position to make a play or took a bad angle. I saw it multiple times. McCluster beat Von so many times that Von tried tripping him because he couldn't stop him.

The point of this post is that people saying that last year or even right now, Von is NOT the best LB in the league. He's not the best pure pass rusher in the league. He isn't the best 3-4 OLB in the league. And saying he is THE best in the NFL is pure homerism.

Oh and btw. Jared Allen is better than Von as a pass rusher and in coverage. That's just how good Allen is. And he's a DE.
This is a good post. Even a blind squirrel......
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:15 AM   #161
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I see you just flew by my post without reading or comprehending it, as usual. If you actually read the post, you'd see that I said made the distinction between a LB and a pure pass rusher. The poster made the assumption Von was the best pure pass rusher, which is false.

If you read any of the post, I clarified more than once that right now Von is not the best OLB in the league, because he isn't. Is he good? Yeah of course he is, but is he the BEST in the NFL? NO.
And last year Tamba was more of a force overall than Von. He was just as good of a run stopper and he got more pressure on QB's than Von. So again, right now Tamba deserves to be ahead of Von until Von goes out and proves otherwise.

And I love that this board makes excuses for Von. Yes he was hurt. That's how the game goes.
KC lost a ton of their key players to injury last year and would have won the division with those missing players, but ya know what Gaylore? THAT'S HOW IT GOES.

And I'm pretty sure a broken hand wasn't the reason Von got beat up in the run game by McCluster. There were several times Von wasn't in the right position to make a play or took a bad angle. I saw it multiple times. McCluster beat Von so many times that Von tried tripping him because he couldn't stop him.

The point of this post is that people saying that last year or even right now, Von is NOT the best LB in the league. He's not the best pure pass rusher in the league. He isn't the best 3-4 OLB in the league. And saying he is THE best in the NFL is pure homerism.

Oh and btw. Jared Allen is better than Von as a pass rusher and in coverage. That's just how good Allen is. And he's a DE.
First, Jared Allen isn't as good in coverage as Von Miller. He just isn't. All his deflections are swat downs at the LOS. That isn't "coverage."

Second, the point of mentioning injuries is that he finished second team all-pro with near identical stats missing a game and playing four with a broken hand. Do you hear anyone here saying that Jamal Charles sucks because he didn't put up good numbers for the 2011 season? We could, and then use your crap argument that "no excuses! Injuries happen so That's how the game goes. THAT'S HOW IT GOES!" Someone the point that a rookie with a bad hand putting up godly numbers suggests he could actually have played much better is totally over your head.

Finally, your original point was that Von Miller wasn't the best OLB in the draft and then you tried to argue the Chiefs player was. He is not. Is Von the best OLB in the league? He wasn't last year. But he was pretty close and with a full offseason, and working hand, and no longer being rookie, he very well could be at this moment.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:46 PM   #162
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First, Jared Allen isn't as good in coverage as Von Miller. He just isn't. All his deflections are swat downs at the LOS. That isn't "coverage."

Second, the point of mentioning injuries is that he finished second team all-pro with near identical stats missing a game and playing four with a broken hand. Do you hear anyone here saying that Jamal Charles sucks because he didn't put up good numbers for the 2011 season? We could, and then use your crap argument that "no excuses! Injuries happen so That's how the game goes. THAT'S HOW IT GOES!" Someone the point that a rookie with a bad hand putting up godly numbers suggests he could actually have played much better is totally over your head.

Finally, your original point was that Von Miller wasn't the best OLB in the draft and then you tried to argue the Chiefs player was. He is not. Is Von the best OLB in the league? He wasn't last year. But he was pretty close and with a full offseason, and working hand, and no longer being rookie, he very well could be at this moment.
Yes, he is. Has Von made INT's? Nope. Allen has made plays in coverage. He even had double-digit passes defended in back-to-back seasons. Want proof? Here ya go...(even some nice commentary)



And to the JC question, yes there are people who say JC sucks (ahem Jetmeck/BRob), but we all know JC isn't a fluke. He's proven it ever since he stepped on the field.

And yes I do believe that Justin Houston can be just as good as Von Miller in the future. Last year Von was the most NFL ready defender in the draft, but that doesn't mean he's going to develop into the best. Von is the best right now, but I can easily see Houston being a similar player. Houston missed a portion of training camp and had no offseason either.
Houston has similar speed to Von. He's very fast off the edge. Von is better in coverage, but Houston is the better run defender. It took awhile for Houston to get adjusted to the NFL and Romeo brought him along slowly. In the 2nd half of the year Houston started every game and was a man out there.

I think Houston will be a double digit sack LB next year who can play the run extremely well and be decent in coverage (barring injury).
So our 3rd round pick looks to be similar to your #2 overall pick. Congrats
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:02 PM   #163
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Run defense ratings by PFF:

Hali: +6.9
Dumervil: +7.3
Houston: +7.4
Miller: +22.9
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:14 PM   #164
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Run defense ratings by PFF:

Hali: +6.9
Dumervil: +7.3
Houston: +7.4
Miller: +22.9
Ruh-roh!

Sheepstud looks stupid again! Jared Allen catching a swing pass doesn't mean he is good in coverage.

And let's revisit this thread since KCStud has declared Houston superior to Von Miller and "will show us all" next season.
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:25 PM   #165
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Houston isn't just "not as good" in coverage, he's pretty terrible:

Houston: -7.6
Hali: 0.0
Dumervil: +2.0
Miller: +5.3
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:50 PM   #166
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Yes, he is. Has Von made INT's? Nope. Allen has made plays in coverage. He even had double-digit passes defended in back-to-back seasons. Want proof? Here ya go...(even some nice commentary)



And to the JC question, yes there are people who say JC sucks (ahem Jetmeck/BRob), but we all know JC isn't a fluke. He's proven it ever since he stepped on the field.

And yes I do believe that Justin Houston can be just as good as Von Miller in the future. Last year Von was the most NFL ready defender in the draft, but that doesn't mean he's going to develop into the best. Von is the best right now, but I can easily see Houston being a similar player. Houston missed a portion of training camp and had no offseason either.
Houston has similar speed to Von. He's very fast off the edge. Von is better in coverage, but Houston is the better run defender. It took awhile for Houston to get adjusted to the NFL and Romeo brought him along slowly. In the 2nd half of the year Houston started every game and was a man out there.

I think Houston will be a double digit sack LB next year who can play the run extremely well and be decent in coverage (barring injury).
So our 3rd round pick looks to be similar to your #2 overall pick. Congrats
Miller doesnt need all the excuses you afforded Houston. Poor boy.

Von Miller is much faster than Houston.

Jared Allen is a 43 RDE and your comparing his coverage abilities based on tipped passes to Von Miller? What an idiot.

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Old 06-25-2012, 02:40 PM   #167
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For the record folks, Houston was looking like a man by the end of the season. KCStud may be reaching a little, but he might be a top half of the league LBer by seasons end and ascending. His numbers reflect an average. His average does not show his improvement. He started pretty bad.

However Miller was top 10 his 1st snap. I gotta say I love everything about the guy. If he's not the real deal, Ill be real surprized. Not just on the field either. I think this guy will be running the defense next season. He might even replace what you lost in Dawkins locker room presence. The Chief I think of when I think in comparison is Eric Berry. Berry was top 3 from his 1st snap.

Von Miller is on that level KCStud.
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:51 PM   #168
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I cried a little inside when Kansas City took Berry.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:20 PM   #169
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For the record folks, Houston was looking like a man by the end of the season. KCStud may be reaching a little, but he might be a top half of the league LBer by seasons end and ascending. His numbers reflect an average. His average does not show his improvement. He started pretty bad.

However Miller was top 10 his 1st snap. I gotta say I love everything about the guy. If he's not the real deal, Ill be real surprized. Not just on the field either. I think this guy will be running the defense next season. He might even replace what you lost in Dawkins locker room presence. The Chief I think of when I think in comparison is Eric Berry. Berry was top 3 from his 1st snap.

Von Miller is on that level KCStud.
I'm not sure Berry was top 3 from his first snap. He gave up 7 TDs in coverage he was responsible for in 2010. That was tied for most in the league with Tyvon Branch and Alan Ball. He did pick off 4 which is good, but it doesn't really compare with Polamalu (0 TDs, 7 Ints), Reed (4 TDs, 8 Ints), Sensabaugh (1 TD, 5 Ints), or even Earl Thomas (3 TDs, 5 Ints)

I'm not saying he won't be an excellent player, but I'm not sure he was really top 3 from the very beginning.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:51 PM   #170
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For the record folks, Houston was looking like a man by the end of the season. KCStud may be reaching a little, but he might be a top half of the league LBer by seasons end and ascending. His numbers reflect an average. His average does not show his improvement. He started pretty bad.

However Miller was top 10 his 1st snap. I gotta say I love everything about the guy. If he's not the real deal, Ill be real surprized. Not just on the field either. I think this guy will be running the defense next season. He might even replace what you lost in Dawkins locker room presence. The Chief I think of when I think in comparison is Eric Berry. Berry was top 3 from his 1st snap.

Von Miller is on that level KCStud.
Reaching a little?

you are the master of understatement..

he has a man crush on all things chefs .. since Jared used to be a chef he should know tha he never played anything but DE, occasionally he would drop into coverage but it was from a hand in the dirt DE spot..

As for his other ravings he sounds like a very young kid that does not know anything but chefs, madden and maybe some FF.. all of which is fantasy land level football..

and calling your self stud also sounds like a dreamer.. probably never ever been laid..
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:06 PM   #171
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I always thought 'KCStud' referred to his earring.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:30 PM   #172
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I'm not sure Berry was top 3 from his first snap. He gave up 7 TDs in coverage he was responsible for in 2010. That was tied for most in the league with Tyvon Branch and Alan Ball. He did pick off 4 which is good, but it doesn't really compare with Polamalu (0 TDs, 7 Ints), Reed (4 TDs, 8 Ints), Sensabaugh (1 TD, 5 Ints), or even Earl Thomas (3 TDs, 5 Ints)

I'm not saying he won't be an excellent player, but I'm not sure he was really top 3 from the very beginning.
DB stats!? Really?

Your statistics dont tell the story. Where do Vons stats place him?

If your going to debate football with me, you must be able to form an opinion watching football. You cant have it told to you by the media, or make it up as you go. Ive been around wayyy too long for that. Anyone watching Berry saw a few rookie hiccups in the beginning. Then blow someone up 5 yards deep in the backfield on thevnext play. Just like Von, he dont have the best in the league stats, but best in the league play.
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:30 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by MagicHef View Post
Run defense ratings by PFF:

Hali: +6.9
Dumervil: +7.3
Houston: +7.4
Miller: +22.9
I love cherry picking stats! Houston struggled in the first half of the season and then came on in the 2nd half.

Houston's rookie season was a tale of two halves. Perfectly good article explaining it.

http://arrowheadaddict.com/2012/06/1...rd-big-season/

So what kind of season might Houston have in 2012? Chances are he could be even better than he was from Week 10 on of last season. But what if he was just equally as good? What would his numbers look like?
In 2011,Houston finished the year with six sacks, three QB hits, 13 QB hurries, three batted passes, 45 tackles and 32 stops.*
*The official NFL numbers credit Houston for a few more tackles. They also credit him with -.5 a sack. We’re using PFF numbers here because we believe them to be more accurate. PFF doesn’t give out 1/2 sacks. If two players get there at the same time, they both get credit for a sack.
His grades from PFF were as follows:

Overall: +6.8, Run D: +7.4, Pass Coverage: -7.6

If we take his numbers from Week 10 on, average them out and project them for an entire season, they look like this.

12 sacks
4 QB hits
22 QB hurries
58 tackles
50 stops
+33.4 overall grade

How does that +33.4 overall grade stack up against all 3-4 OLB from 2011?
It would be good for #3 in the entire NFL behind only Cameron Wake (+43.5) and Aldon Smith (+36.4) and ahead of players like Demarcus Ware (+32.6) and even Tamba Hali (+31.4).


The 50 stops?

Yeah, that’d be the best in the NFL. The stops are really important because those are plays basically blown up by Houston.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:04 AM   #174
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Excuse me, but taking a hot streak and stretching it across an entire season is idiotic given what we're actually discussing here. There are so many players with which that can be done, no? So why do it? There was a period of weeks in which Miller was the most dominant defensive player in the league. You don't see anyone stretching that period out to pull magic tricks out of their ass. What boggles my mind is that you sarcastically call someone out for cherry picking stats -- when they had taken the sum total -- and then turn around and not only cherry pick, but just start making estimates and prognostications as if nobody would notice.
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:39 AM   #175
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If we take his numbers from Week 10 on, average them out and project them for an entire season, they look like this.
And.... done.
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