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Old 06-13-2012, 02:02 PM   #376
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BTW....you see that Bad News Bears inning by Detroit last night?

Someone said it best....3 of our 4 infielders look like they should be bouncers, not infielders.

It sucks because Miggy is a much better fielding first baseman than Prince....but Prince would scoff at playing DH.
I didn't, but I can only imagine what happened, complete with Benny Hill's theme song playing in the background.

I honestly don't put a whole lot of thought into fielding one way or the other, though. I don't get too down on poor fielders or too excited about great ones, because ultimately, the game is about getting runs across the plate. The difference in potential runs given up between a .990 and say a .950 fielder has much much less impact on a team than the difference between a .320 hitter and a .280 hitter. To illustrate the point, I'll use extremes. Which team would win more games: 9 Brandon Inges or 9 Miguel Cabreras?

The way to win consistently, IMO, is to make sure your best 9 players are in the lineup, regardless of where they play. My dad and brother and I were talking yesterday, and they were discussing what to do with Quintin Berry now that Jackson is back. Their suggestion was to trade one of them for a hitting second baseman. I said screw that, Berry's got more range than Jackson, put in in center and move Jackson to second base. He's proven he can hit, so getting rid of them would be stupid. Find a way to get them both on the field without sacrificing Boesch or Young's bats...that's the only way to do it, IMO.
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Old 06-13-2012, 02:10 PM   #377
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I didn't, but I can only imagine what happened, complete with Benny Hill's theme song playing in the background.

I honestly don't put a whole lot of thought into fielding one way or the other, though. I don't get too down on poor fielders or too excited about great ones, because ultimately, the game is about getting runs across the plate. The difference in potential runs given up between a .990 and say a .950 fielder has much much less impact on a team than the difference between a .320 hitter and a .280 hitter. To illustrate the point, I'll use extremes. Which team would win more games: 9 Brandon Inges or 9 Miguel Cabreras?

The way to win consistently, IMO, is to make sure your best 9 players are in the lineup, regardless of where they play. My dad and brother and I were talking yesterday, and they were discussing what to do with Quintin Berry now that Jackson is back. Their suggestion was to trade one of them for a hitting second baseman. I said screw that, Berry's got more range than Jackson, put in in center and move Jackson to second base. He's proven he can hit, so getting rid of them would be stupid. Find a way to get them both on the field without sacrificing Boesch or Young's bats...that's the only way to do it, IMO.
You're way wrong buddy.
Fielding is pretty fricken important, and that is a HUGE dropoff, which would result in a lot more runs scored for the opponent.
Basically you're saying to me the Mariners would have won more games if they had Cabrera at 3B instead of Beltre during those years. I say false.

Lol at saying a player can just change positions like that without sacrificing for the team. Not alone the errors, but more hits will probably be given up. Which leads to more runs.

I mean, basically, its the equivalent of saying, in football, just throw guys out there, it doesn't matter, focus on offense and scoring points. I'd rather have a RB who will be able to get 1,300 yards opposed to a RB who will get 1,000 yards while sacrificing spending money on defense to upgrade the pathetic LB/DT corp.
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Old 06-13-2012, 10:25 PM   #378
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Perfect game thrown and 14K's by San Fransisco Giant pitcher Matt Cain. Told my brother after the 3rd inning that it was going to be a special night for Matt.

Congrats.
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:08 AM   #379
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You're way wrong buddy.
Fielding is pretty fricken important, and that is a HUGE dropoff, which would result in a lot more runs scored for the opponent.
Basically you're saying to me the Mariners would have won more games if they had Cabrera at 3B instead of Beltre during those years. I say false.

Lol at saying a player can just change positions like that without sacrificing for the team. Not alone the errors, but more hits will probably be given up. Which leads to more runs.
Fielding is waaaaaay huge in baseball and Houghtan has lost some baseball IQ points if he thinks otherwise. Ask the Red Sox a few years ago when they were one of the worst fielding teams in baseball even though they had a potent offense. They couldn't do much without the fielding. Give a team 4 outs in an inning while that error has a guy in scoring position and you have a potential loss. Great plays make that extra out worthy for a pitcher to be able to go that extra inning with a lower pitch count. IT IS HUGE!!!!
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:26 AM   #380
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You're way wrong buddy.
Fielding is pretty fricken important, and that is a HUGE dropoff, which would result in a lot more runs scored for the opponent.
Basically you're saying to me the Mariners would have won more games if they had Cabrera at 3B instead of Beltre during those years. I say false.

Lol at saying a player can just change positions like that without sacrificing for the team. Not alone the errors, but more hits will probably be given up. Which leads to more runs.

I mean, basically, its the equivalent of saying, in football, just throw guys out there, it doesn't matter, focus on offense and scoring points. I'd rather have a RB who will be able to get 1,300 yards opposed to a RB who will get 1,000 yards while sacrificing spending money on defense to upgrade the pathetic LB/DT corp.
It's not as big a difference as you think. Look at Austin Jackson. Centerfielder for the Detroit Tigers. Last year, he had a .992 fielding percentage. He also had 390 chances. If we replace him with a .950 fielding percentage player, his total number of putouts only decreases by 13 over the course of a 162 game season. And I'm not talking about putting Prince Fielder out in CF, I'm talking about getting the best hitter that can actually play that position at a reasonable level. I don't think you're going to get that many more hits over the course of a season against someone that can at least cover the ground needed for said position.

On the other hand, let's look at the number of Runs Created for Jackson (90), and say, the #10 player in Runs Created last year: Curtis Granderson (121). That's a difference of 31 runs over the course of a season. That is not to mention that players with higher Runs Created also tend to generate more walks. I also realize the Runs Created statistic is not an absolute, but then again, neither is fielding percentage. This is obviously not an apples to apples comparison.

Let's even try to get a little closer to an apples to apples comparison, considering this started with a couple of us Tigers fans bemoaning the play of our defense. Miguel Cabrera replaced Brandon Inge at 3B. No, I'm not going to be the dumbass and go "NURRRR let's compare last season's numbers", since Inge finished below the Mendoza line last season, but let's do this: let's compare Inge's best season as a hitter with Cabrera's worst season as a hitter. Then let's compare Inge's best season fielding at 3B with Cabrera's worst season fielding at 3B. Just for fun. Let's see what happens.

In 2006, Brandon Inge hit .253 with 27 HR and 83 RBI. He had 77 Runs Created that year.

Let's at least be a little bit fair and not use Cabrera's rookie season. His worst non-rookie season was his 2nd year, when he hit .294 with 33 HR and 112 RBI. He had 112 Runs Created.

Inge's best year fielding was 2010. He had a fielding percentage of .977 on 395 chances. That is 10 Errors.

Miguel Cabrera's worst year fielding at 3B was 2007. He posted a fielding percentage of .941 on 389 chances. 23 Errors for Cabrera.

So here we are talking about a difference of 13 Errors, vs. a difference of 35 Runs Created. Even if you say Inge can get to that many more balls hit his way, you're still seeing a deficit there.

Again, these numbers are not absolute, but you can definitely see the direction I'm going. It's certainly not "way wrong".
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:09 AM   #381
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Perfect game thrown and 14K's by San Fransisco Giant pitcher Matt Cain. Told my brother after the 3rd inning that it was going to be a special night for Matt.

Congrats.
Earlier in the day he and Dustin Johnson were driving golf balls from home plate into the cove. He should do that everytime before a game. Good thing they didn't have Sandoval in there at 3rd on that last play. That ball would've ate him up.
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:27 AM   #382
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In regards to the fielding argument, I think it's more important than houghtam's opinion.

You can't take only fielding percentage and errors into account.

A lummox in the field who is too slow to react to hit balls and doesn't get to them isn't factored into that equation....it simply goes as a hit for the batter because the fielder didn't get to the ball and thus it's not counted as an error.

Also not being factored into the fielding equation is arm strength and accuracy, which is not included in fielding percentage. Hitters will take extra bases on hits and score more runs if they know an outfielder has a weak arm and is not much of a threat to gun them down. Guys will take an extra base all day on a Johnny Damon....but when someone like Jeff Francoeur guns someone down, they will think twice about taking extra bases. You could argue that Jeff Francoeur might only gun down a handful of guys a year....but it's not simply how many he throws out, but also the number of times he deters someone else from trying.

I agree to an extent that when it comes down to it, you need to score runs, but you also need to stop runs from being scored.

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Old 06-14-2012, 08:38 AM   #383
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Perfect game thrown and 14K's by San Fransisco Giant pitcher Matt Cain. Told my brother after the 3rd inning that it was going to be a special night for Matt.

Congrats.
That was an awesome pitching performance.

Gregor Blanco saved the perfect game with a spectacular catch in the 7th inning.
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:39 AM   #384
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^^ You ask Angels fans if having Jim Edmonds or Darin Erstad made a difference in the field diving for balls while Garrett Anderson dove for maybe 5 balls in his career. Those become hits and not errors with Anderson while the other 2 get outs that would have been hits. Ask a pitcher if fielding counts towards their success.
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:50 AM   #385
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Oh, this gem from our thread in 2011.....

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Trumbo didn't deserve the #2 voting in the ROY. Hosmer in less games had a better line than him.
He doesn't hit for average.
He doesn't get on base, a horrible .291 OBP. Thats dreadful.
He strikes out a ton.
I mean, if you think Trumbo is going to become a perennial player and count on him to be in the lineup for years to come, think again. I'd almost guarantee he's at best a backup in 2 years.
Nothing like putting down a rookie in his first season. How do you like his numbers now?
201 AB, 68 hits, 28 runs, 15 doubles, 14 HRs, 39 RBIs, .328 AVR, .385 OBP, .620 slugging, 1.07 OPS. Downside is his KOs at 48.

Trumbo will be making someone else a backup. Wells won't have a position once he gets back in July.
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Old 06-14-2012, 11:05 AM   #386
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Oh, this gem from our thread in 2011.....



Nothing like putting down a rookie in his first season. How do you like his numbers now?
201 AB, 68 hits, 28 runs, 15 doubles, 14 HRs, 39 RBIs, .328 AVR, .385 OBP, .620 slugging, 1.07 OPS. Downside is his KOs at 48.

Trumbo will be making someone else a backup. Wells won't have a position once he gets back in July.
I love Trumbo. I will always root against him, but it's definitely fun watching him play. Plus he's on my fantasy team
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Old 06-14-2012, 01:19 PM   #387
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Awesome perfect game last night! Go Giants!
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:23 PM   #388
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I'm hoping the Tigers might be getting back on track a little bit.

They have taken 2 out 3 games in the last 2 road series against the Reds and Cubs.

Austin Jackson came off the DL and continued kicking ass this year. When that dude is hitting at the top of the lineup, the offense is a lot more potent. I want to see him and Quintin Berry both playing at the same time, as they give the Tigers some needed speed and are both very good outfielders.

Justin Verlander had a nice start today: 8 innings 5 hits 2 ERs 0 BB 8 Ks.
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:32 PM   #389
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I'm hoping the Tigers might be getting back on track a little bit.

They have taken 2 out 3 games in the last 2 road series against the Reds and Cubs.

Austin Jackson came off the DL and continued kicking ass this year. When that dude is hitting at the top of the lineup, the offense is a lot more potent. I want to see him and Quintin Berry both playing at the same time, as they give the Tigers some needed speed and are both very good outfielders.

Justin Verlander had a nice start today: 8 innings 5 hits 2 ERs 0 BB 8 Ks.
Problem is I don't think you can force either Young or Boesch out of their positions. Neither will DH full-time. I'm telling you man, Berry is boobies in center. Let's move Jackson to second. Would the defensive gap between him and Santiago/Raburn/whoever be bigger than the offensive gap between him and Santiago/Raburn/whoever? I think so.
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:50 AM   #390
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MY GOD JUST STOP.

You can not just move a guy who was a CF all his career to play second base, just like that.
Not only the errors, but misplacing grounders that result in hits, whatever.

Also, why are you so high on Boesch and Young? Posting an OPS below .700 for both of them.
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:02 AM   #391
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MY GOD JUST STOP.

You can not just move a guy who was a CF all his career to play second base, just like that.
Not only the errors, but misplacing grounders that result in hits, whatever.

Also, why are you so high on Boesch and Young? Posting an OPS below .700 for both of them.
Yeah if you look at this year only. Boesch posted a .799 last season (his second in the majors) and is 27 years old. He is a promising power hitting lefty, and you'd be stupid to get rid of him. Young has a career .750 OPS, and is only 26. Young might end up going, since he's eligible for FA in 2013, but the Tigers went out and got him for two promising players last year...I would be shocked if they let him go.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:17 PM   #392
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OAKLAND, Calif. -- Manny Ramirez is a free agent again after he asked the Oakland Athletics to release him and the team granted his request on Friday.

"The A's treated me amazingly during all this time, but sadly didn't have space for me and this is something I can't control," Ramirez told ESPNDeportes.com's Enrique Rojas by phone. "I'm going home to continue my training hoping to get the chance to play again. I'll be waiting for that call and if God believes (playing) is the best for me, then it'll happen. If not, I'll understand.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:17 PM   #393
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It looked like he was playing decently enough in Triple-A after serving his 50 games suspension:

Ramirez signed a minor league deal with Oakland on Feb. 20, and hit .302 with 14 RBIs in 17 games with Triple-A Sacramento. He served a 50-game suspension for violating Major League Baseball's drug policy last year, but remained in the minors when the ban ended on his 40th birthday on May 30.

The dreadlocked slugger was expected to make approximately $500,000 if he was added to Oakland's big league roster.
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Old 06-16-2012, 12:45 PM   #394
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Andy Pettitte is pitching pretty damn good for being 40 years old and coming off a one year retirement.

2.77 ERA and 46K/12 BB in 48.2 innings of work.

If Pettitte takes the bump every 5th day and pitches like that all year, it would be huge for the Yankees.
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:09 PM   #395
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Yanks sweep the Nats. Nobody playing better baseball right now.
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Old 06-17-2012, 03:39 PM   #396
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Tigers take 2 out of 3 from the Rox to win their 3rd straight series.

Nice 5-0 win today. Max Scherzer mowed down the Rox lineup.

8 innings 7 hits 0 ER 0 BB 12 Ks.

Quintin Berry keeps impressing and looks like he will stick around for a while....5 more hits in today's game.
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:22 AM   #397
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Yeah if you look at this year only. Boesch posted a .799 last season (his second in the majors) and is 27 years old. He is a promising power hitting lefty, and you'd be stupid to get rid of him. Young has a career .750 OPS, and is only 26. Young might end up going, since he's eligible for FA in 2013, but the Tigers went out and got him for two promising players last year...I would be shocked if they let him go.
Baseball is very much "what have you done for me lately?"
Two years ago Ubaldo Jimenez was a Cy Young candidate and filthy. Now, he isn't anywhere close to that pitcher again.

Boesch is good to keep for now, he is cheap, and an average bat in the lineup. I don't know about being a promising power hitter. I mean Rockie fans were saying the same thing about Brad Hawpe, and Hawpe spiraled down so fast.

Delmon Young is going to be gone likely, and he seems like a high unknown really. Guy has one good year, and a bunch of solid seasons, and then dipped a lot last year and this year. If he doesn't up his production this year, I question if the Tigers bring him back.
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Old 06-18-2012, 07:12 AM   #398
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In my opinion, Delmon Young's future with the Tigers is yet to be determined.

I think a lot rides on what he does from this point on the rest of the season....as well as how good some of the other Detroit OFs perform the rest of the season.
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:51 AM   #399
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In my opinion, Delmon Young's future with the Tigers is yet to be determined.

I think a lot rides on what he does from this point on the rest of the season....as well as how good some of the other Detroit OFs perform the rest of the season.
It is an unknown, and he may want a somewhat pricey contract even though the past two years(2011 and 2012) have been somewhat average at best. I really don't think 2010 season from him is what to assume/expect.
I mean, if he stays healthy and can hit 10-15 homeruns, maybe a few years up to 20, and get back to hitting in the .290 range, he'd be a solid bat in the lineup.
But, seeing as how he rarely walks, if he's hitting near .260 with that pop, not worth the price he might want.

If he picks it up the rest of the season, I could see him getting a 5 year, $50+ million contract. If he doesn't, probably a 3 year, $27 million contract.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:06 AM   #400
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I don't see Delmon getting a 5/50 deal....not with his inconsistency and off field issues.

It will probably be a deal in the three year range, as nobody will want to commit to him any longer than that.

Here is what he has been paid the last 3 years:

2010 $2,600,000
2011 $5,380,000
2012 $6,750,000

Seeing that and taking into account his production (outside of 2010), I think 3 years and $27 million dollars might actually be on the high end of things.

I think if Detroit or another team offered him a 3 year deal for $21 million to $27 million dollars, he would be wise to jump all over it.
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