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Old 06-05-2012, 01:00 PM   #76
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Do they really have that great of stats on that? Because using a gun can just be arming yourself to ward off an intruder, many times you don't have to shoot if intruder unarmed. I'm not sure there are more accidents then there are times a person uses a gun as a tool with success. It's just the accidents get all the press, or the killings etc. No one hears the story about how i heard someone in back yard, got shotgun, turned on light, dude saw shotgun and ran etc etc
No, I don't think his stats are accurate. Here are some counter stats, although I can't vouch for their accuracy, because I haven't checked out all the citations:

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* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2
* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.3
* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.4
* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.5
There are more of the stats at: http://gunowners.org/sk0802.htm

The number of accidental gun deaths is less than 1,000 a year, in the 600 or so range.

Last edited by tnedator; 06-05-2012 at 01:03 PM..
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:12 PM   #77
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Using any quality, modern handgun ammunition, ALL of the duty calibers (9mm, .40, .45) will go through multiple layers of dry wall. There is little if any difference in the penetration of .45 vs. 9mm.

Ironically, while the anti-gun people demonize AR15's, the fact is that most 5.56/.223 bullets will penetrate FAR fewer walls than any handgun, which is actually why a lot of SWAT type agencies have gone to AR15's chambered in 9mm, because it will penetrate walls and still penetrate the bad guy.

Unfortunately, there is no good solution to penetration of walls in the house (or leaving the house) with handguns, short of hitting the bad guy you are defending yourself with.
That's why I said "more likely vs less likely"

I have a Sig516 Patrol and agree 100 percent. The AR-15 just looks like a scarier gun.
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:17 PM   #78
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That's why I said "more likely vs less likely"

I have a Sig516 Patrol and agree 100 percent. The AR-15 just looks like a scarier gun.
Having said that, you use an AR15 to defend yourself in your home and you are probably much more likely to be prosecuted and have the prosecutor talk about how you used the military assault rifle which was overkill.
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:24 PM   #79
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Nope, highly trained professionals and occasionally death dealers protecting you sensitive types from the ravages of the radicals who would do you harm. Enjoy that nap tonight under the blanket of security provided by guys and gals like us, weather you know it, like it, or acknowledge it or not...we know. When you get ruffled, and puffy, and all high on that intellectual/academic horse... it makes us laugh....hard......honestly, it really does.
You've put together a fine group of posts.. this one being the best..

But I'd call them bedwetters your just to kind and sensitive..

liked the comment about "name me a sound that will make your insides turn to water faster than the sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round if you are doing no good. Unmistakable."

could have just said piss or crap your pants.. would have been more graphic.. and probably more accurate..

SOme real good advise I may look into some of your suggestions..
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:32 PM   #80
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Having said that, you use an AR15 to defend yourself in your home and you are probably much more likely to be prosecuted and have the prosecutor talk about how you used the military assault rifle which was overkill.
The home protection mag has ballistic tips staggered with regular rounds. thinking back...I should have gotten the Sig716. That way I could hunt slightly bigger game with it.

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Old 06-05-2012, 01:33 PM   #81
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SIG P229 is an amazing pistol, extremely reliable, very low maintenance and extremely accurate. It was my favourite when I used to do pistol range shooting. I used the 9mm, but you can get it specced to .40 or 357 as well.

For old school badassery, the M1911 .45 is a nice piece with a very long track record.

I only own shotguns, a 12 gauge will take care of all your needs.
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:36 PM   #82
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Dutch, Jay3, and lonestar, thank you for the info! I didn't do a real good job on saying just what I want the guns for. Your answers are helping me split up the different needs of home defense, self-defense, target range, and zombie plinking. ;-)

I looked at shotguns last night, too. The one that caught my eye, thinking of home defense, was a Russian semi-auto 12-gauge, with clips for 5 or 12 shells (Saiga IZ-109). It looks like that could offer up a real "fear of God" moment.

I'm leaning toward going thru the process to get the concealed carry permit, based on what you guys said about the convenience for transport. Would it be fair to think of it like the motorcycle endorsement on my license? I can use it, but I don't necessarily have to use it every day.

For handguns, from what I saw yesterday, I think the 45 would be too big for me. I liked the 22 semi-auto pistol, and I was comfortable with the 357 magnum. I went through two drums with it, once with 38s and once with 357s, and I got a kick out of the "Old West" feel of thumbing the hammer back for each round. I didn't have to, I know, but it felt right. I'd like to get a feel for 9mm and 10mm before deciding between them.

I have a couple close friends who were in Desert Storm, too, and I'll be talking with them about it too. Both of them have concealed carry permits, and they know their stuff.
Frankly once you get your CCL, you will carry about 90% of the time.

Depending on your state laws there are places you can not carry concealed.. but other than those places, you are going to carry once you get the feel and confidence of your weapon..
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:52 PM   #83
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SIG P229 is an amazing pistol, extremely reliable, very low maintenance and extremely accurate. It was my favourite when I used to do pistol range shooting. I used the 9mm, but you can get it specced to .40 or 357 as well.

For old school badassery, the M1911 .45 is a nice piece with a very long track record.

I only own shotguns, a 12 gauge will take care of all your needs.
yea man Sig's are awesome. I have the hots for a p226 stainless elite in .40 but prob. wont pick one up until next year. I mean what is not to love about this:
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:59 PM   #84
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I'd love to know more about that load as even 250 yards is pushing it for the 17.

We have a redtail that follows us out many times. Very effective clean up though.
I'll try to get the info I know he has a scope on both his varmint rifles that cost more than his rifles do.. I shot it and the 22 last christmas and I was good from about 100 yards.. it is a 22 hi performance LR load that has the 17 as the round.. the 17 was more accurate and was easier to feel at home with..

Something he got for his wife for Christmas was the JUDGE 45-410, All I have to say is do not enter their house without permission..
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Old 06-05-2012, 02:03 PM   #85
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Sig makes a nice hand gun(probably the best), but if you're going to get a 1911....get a Kimber. You'll pay...but you'll know where that extra money went.
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Old 06-05-2012, 02:31 PM   #86
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You can narrow it down. The odds are much greater your gun in the house in much more likely to kill your spouse or your child than any intruder. It is not even close. I have two rifles and a pistol myself but none of them are for "Home Protection" They are locked away and unloaded.
That's not narrowed down more -- those numbers include intentional acts of violence between spouses.

And they are also skewed by only counting the killing of an invader. They do not include successful brandishment in all situations that a gun owner might encounter.

It's just a fact -- there are a tiny, tiny number of accidental killings with guns every year. And the vast majority of those involve complete stupidity in the handling or storage of the gun.

So that statement is misleading in that it's designed to make a person feel like they are opening a can of worms they don't control, and inviting a likely fate accidental killing.
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:39 PM   #87
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That's not narrowed down more -- those numbers include intentional acts of violence between spouses.

And they are also skewed by only counting the killing of an invader. They do not include successful brandishment in all situations that a gun owner might encounter.

It's just a fact -- there are a tiny, tiny number of accidental killings with guns every year. And the vast majority of those involve complete stupidity in the handling or storage of the gun.

So that statement is misleading in that it's designed to make a person feel like they are opening a can of worms they don't control, and inviting a likely fate accidental killing.
No, not at all. Most of the gun related deaths are not accidents. They are on purpose. Usually this is an in the moment rage reaction, usually drug or alcohol related. But if there would not have been a gun in the house a homicide would not have been commited.

I'm not saying people should not own guns, but I think everyone needs to look at their situation and their OWN temperment. AND If I had a little kid in the house I would not have a loaded gun oin their for protection. It is too easy for them to get to it. Hell, If I ould have a had a loaded gun in my house me or my wife would probably be dead now.
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:46 PM   #88
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after I bought my .40S&W pistol I was showing it to a friend. I showed him the gun and he got this big silly grin on his face and made a very profound statement that pretty much sums it all up:

guns are cool.
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:40 PM   #89
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No, not at all. Most of the gun related deaths are not accidents. They are on purpose. Usually this is an in the moment rage reaction, usually drug or alcohol related. But if there would not have been a gun in the house a homicide would not have been commited.

I'm not saying people should not own guns, but I think everyone needs to look at their situation and their OWN temperment. AND If I had a little kid in the house I would not have a loaded gun oin their for protection. It is too easy for them to get to it. Hell, If I ould have a had a loaded gun in my house me or my wife would probably be dead now.
SO IYHO they would not have used a kitchen knife, Rock, hammer, scissors or smothered them while they were asleep with paper..

Sorry but just because a firearm (notice I did not say gun, because any one with military training knows the difference between a gun and a firearm) was handy did ot make it a homicide..the indiviual would have found a way to make it happen..

 Lame ass argument if I every saw one.. Always has been always will be..
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:47 PM   #90
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Murder is unpossible without guns.
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Old 06-05-2012, 10:01 PM   #91
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Murder is unpossible without guns.
Never heard of someone getting murdered with a penis..
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Old 06-06-2012, 04:05 AM   #92
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knuckle draggers
ah ? an evolved, soon to become extinct individual.
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Old 06-06-2012, 04:43 AM   #93
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Never heard of someone getting murdered with a penis..
Clearly, you've never seen "A Clockwork Orange"

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Old 06-06-2012, 04:59 AM   #94
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If you're interested in a revolver, a .357 magnum is a very versatile and proven choice. Can shoot several different rounds (true .357, .38 specials and IIRC a couple other less common) with everything from a high powered load to a varmint round. Lots of women I know (mother, sister, a couple girlfriends) are/have been fans of the .357 due to being a good size with decent power.

Also, revolvers are a lot simpler and more reliable -- at least for folks who are only occasional users. Pistols and semi/auto rifles (even most of the really expensive ones) require diligent care to remain reliable whereas a half decent revolver just needs very basic attention. There's a reason cops/marines/etc. have a TV trope of always being shown cleaning and oiling their pistols.

You can either get an "old fashioned" double/single action (i.e. one with a hammer that you can cock manually or not) or some newer designs that have no (external) hammer and are double action only. Taurus (and others probably) make a whole lineup of revolvers like that. The benefit of the Taurus types is more simplicity and quicker action.

There's also small and large frame options. Typically the small frame options are better for people with smaller hands but only have a 5 round capacity while the large frame models have a 6 round capacity. You can also get models with swappable barrels (I have a 2", a 4" and a 6" for mine) for different scenarios (something you can't do with anything but specialty pistols) though that's probably out of your stated price range.

If you're interested in a pistol instead, well you've got some research to do as the available styles are practically innumerable (actions, materials & construction, striker/hammer fired, safety mechanisms, center/rim fire, grip style, etc.). The best advice I have is to check around for a local range that will let you rent/try before you by and try out lots of different types before you buy.
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:29 AM   #95
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If you're interested in a revolver, a .357 magnum is a very versatile and proven choice. Can shoot several different rounds (true .357, .38 specials and IIRC a couple other less common) with everything from a high powered load to a varmint round. Lots of women I know (mother, sister, a couple girlfriends) are/have been fans of the .357 due to being a good size with decent power.

Also, revolvers are a lot simpler and more reliable -- at least for folks who are only occasional users. Pistols and semi/auto rifles (even most of the really expensive ones) require diligent care to remain reliable whereas a half decent revolver just needs very basic attention. There's a reason cops/marines/etc. have a TV trope of always being shown cleaning and oiling their pistols.

You can either get an "old fashioned" double/single action (i.e. one with a hammer that you can cock manually or not) or some newer designs that have no (external) hammer and are double action only. Taurus (and others probably) make a whole lineup of revolvers like that. The benefit of the Taurus types is more simplicity and quicker action.

There's also small and large frame options. Typically the small frame options are better for people with smaller hands but only have a 5 round capacity while the large frame models have a 6 round capacity. You can also get models with swappable barrels (I have a 2", a 4" and a 6" for mine) for different scenarios (something you can't do with anything but specialty pistols) though that's probably out of your stated price range.

If you're interested in a pistol instead, well you've got some research to do as the available styles are practically innumerable (actions, materials & construction, striker/hammer fired, safety mechanisms, center/rim fire, grip style, etc.). The best advice I have is to check around for a local range that will let you rent/try before you by and try out lots of different types before you buy.
It might be a little silly since it is basically playing cowboy, but my Ruger Blackhawk single action .357 is probably my favorite gun. Just carefree shooting fun
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:21 AM   #96
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Never heard of someone getting murdered with a penis..
even one infected with STDs?
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:23 AM   #97
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It might be a little silly since it is basically playing cowboy, but my Ruger Blackhawk single action .357 is probably my favorite gun. Just carefree shooting fun
I have a late '60s Blackhawk I got from my grandpa (he had put 10 rounds through it in its lifetime). I absolutely love that pistol.
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:24 PM   #98
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Already got a Glock .40 s&w and thinking about getting a 12 gauge pump shotgun to go along with it. You know, home defense and all, but not sure yet. Looking around the Mossberg 590A1 looks good, mainly for the increased capacity (8+1), and the ability to use a bayonet (assuming it's legal) (like the capacity more then the bayonet). Not really to excited about the price (think it's MSRP $786).

Anybody got any other suggestions on pump action 12 gauges?

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Old 07-08-2013, 05:41 PM   #99
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Can't go wrong with a Remington 870 HILIFE. They come in everything from 18 inch to 28 inch barrels, finishes, and have a model that hold 8, not sure about 8 plus 1. Also not sure about a bayonet but that isn't even really needed.
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:41 PM   #100
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AR 15 with the BMG 50 cal upper conversion.
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