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Old 06-05-2012, 10:40 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
Gun advice: Statistics show that it is far more likley your handgun will be used to shoot someone you know and love than any intruder that comes into your house.
Bad statistics. Your wording "and love" is misleading, because those numbers include intentional shootings of those who are acquainted or related. The vast majority of crimes in this country take place between people who "know" each other (and domestic crimes are a huge part of it). That statistic is often worded falsely to make it seem like it's referring to the accidental shooting of a kid or something.

And, when you include brandishment of the weapon in self-defense (not just shooting a perpetrator), it goes through the roof the other way.

You are much more likely to use a gun in defense of yourself than you are to accidentally shoot someone you know. (In other words, if you exclude intentional shootings and crimes, and include defensive uses of the gun other than actually putting a bullet in someone, it's a blowout in favor of gun ownership). And most importantly, these risks are something you have some control over -- you are a person, not a statistic. Your choices can affect your destiny.

Other handy tips for people -- whenever you hear a statistic about "children" and guns, they are including "children" up until the age of 18, and not pointing out that the numbers are hugely made up of gang-related criminal shootings of teenage boys. Also, they have been caught red-handed before counting "children" up to the age of 21.

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Old 06-05-2012, 10:47 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Butterscotch Stallion View Post
I decided the gun you need within ten seconds.
It's the same gun I bought.

history buff? likes pistols?

1911. this is really a no-brainer.
A 1911 .45 is too much gun for some people.
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Old 06-05-2012, 10:49 AM   #53
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.357 Sig, definitely.
this is specialized round and increases TCO.
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Old 06-05-2012, 10:50 AM   #54
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Also way too soft on punch (I know this from experience, after shooting a F'er in the shoulder with a 9mm that he shrugged off like it was nothing. I started carrying my 44 Mag S&W, no more problems (Desert Storm I). I'd go with the Glock 10mm (40 cal, and what I'm using now), or a 45 semi (still hard to beat, but rounds cost more). If you hit 'em, you'd like to know they are out of the fight ( ie shoulder shot = no arm). You cannot be sure of that with a nine. The 10mm is a great compromise between the muzzel velocity of a 9mm, and the punch of a .45.
I've got a Springfield Amory XDM .40S&W and I went with this for a few reasons. One is the safety features (there's several that are vary nice like have two safeties, one on the grip and one on the trigger so both have to be compressed before the gun will fire) then the ability to feel the firing pin when it's charged and also feeling a slight bulge in the chamber when a round is loaded in the chamber. Again, lot's of good safety features for a beginner. The pistol also comes with a case, 2 magazines, a speed loader, a lock and a holster, so you get alot for the money.

Then it's a 16+1 so lot's of magazine capacity. The other really, really nice thing about a .40 is that it feels like shooting a 9mm, that is, the kick is extremely reasonable while the punch of the bullet is much better than the 9mm.

The other thing about the .40S&W pistol, cheap and easily available ammo which you should be able to buy anywhere.

Anyhow, my $0.02 cents on the subject.
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Old 06-05-2012, 10:53 AM   #55
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Would like a Xdm 45 when I save up the funds.

Yep, that's my pistol but in .40S&W, all black. But same basic package.
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Old 06-05-2012, 10:59 AM   #56
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45 acp is my favorite. Easy to shoot, plenty powerful. I carry a glock 36 which is a subcompact 6+1 for self defense. That gun gets a little rowdy especially when shooting +p rounds, but I'm a big dude so it doesn't bother me. I'd really like to get my hands on a .460 or .500 mag revolver for the hell of it. Anyone ever shoot one of those?
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:16 AM   #57
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Also way too soft on punch (I know this from experience, after shooting a F'er in the shoulder with a 9mm that he shrugged off like it was nothing. I started carrying my 44 Mag S&W, no more problems (Desert Storm I). I'd go with the Glock 10mm (40 cal, and what I'm using now), or a 45 semi (still hard to beat, but rounds cost more). If you hit 'em, you'd like to know they are out of the fight ( ie shoulder shot = no arm). You cannot be sure of that with a nine. The 10mm is a great compromise between the muzzel velocity of a 9mm, and the punch of a .45.
10 mm ammo is expensive and 45 is on the higher end with a lot more recoil that a novice shouldn't start with. It's not so much the caliber but the shot placement. Shoulder is not a vital and anyone would keep going shot with a handgun there. Get the 9mm good practice and cheap and later you can pick up a larger gun to carry.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:20 AM   #58
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Nope, highly trained professionals and occasionally death dealers protecting you sensitive types from the ravages of the radicals who would do you harm. Enjoy that nap tonight under the blanket of security provided by guys and gals like us, weather you know it, like it, or acknowledge it or not...we know. When you get ruffled, and puffy, and all high on that intellectual/academic horse... it makes us laugh....hard......honestly, it really does.
Thank you, sir. Hit that nail right on the head. Great post.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:23 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco View Post
A 1911 .45 is too much gun for some people.
Actually, because of the weight of 1911's, and the low velocity of the .45, in most cases the perceived recoil is lighter than .40s, and some would even argue 9mm, but I disagree. .40s tend to be snappier, with more muzzle flip. This is aided by the fact that in the majority of cases the .40 is in a much lighter gun than the .45 (I say most, because you can get a light Glock/M&P/Etc. in .45, but with the 1911, you are aided by the weight of the gun).
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:28 AM   #60
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Nope, highly trained professionals and occasionally death dealers protecting you sensitive types from the ravages of the radicals who would do you harm. Enjoy that nap tonight under the blanket of security provided by guys and gals like us, weather you know it, like it, or acknowledge it or not...we know. When you get ruffled, and puffy, and all high on that intellectual/academic horse... it makes us laugh....hard......honestly, it really does.
I was just messin with ya'll.
Never meant it to seem that I don't appreciate military service.
Can't say that Ive ever been ruffled or puffy though.

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Old 06-05-2012, 11:37 AM   #61
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Nope, highly trained professionals and occasionally death dealers protecting you sensitive types from the ravages of the radicals who would do you harm. Enjoy that nap tonight under the blanket of security provided by guys and gals like us, weather you know it, like it, or acknowledge it or not...we know. When you get ruffled, and puffy, and all high on that intellectual/academic horse... it makes us laugh....hard......honestly, it really does.
Agreed.

"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:38 AM   #62
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If it is a pistol you want and can only spend between 600 and 800, Ruger is really hard to beat. They finally came out with a 1911 style 45. If you want a great target pistol that would double as a home defender or conceal carry, for the price the fire power is hard to beat. They run around 800 i believe, but it is hard to argue against a shotgun as the best home defender. I personally like a Remington 870, relatively cheap and very reliable. I have an AR15 and an AK47, and if you want to go that route, spend a little more for a good AR, you will not be disapointed. You can do so much with that platform from furniture to different calibers, it is hard to not find something you will love. Research is your best friend when it comes to guns as their are so many options.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:46 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by DENVERDUI55 View Post
10 mm ammo is expensive and 45 is on the higher end with a lot more recoil that a novice shouldn't start with. It's not so much the caliber but the shot placement. Shoulder is not a vital and anyone would keep going shot with a handgun there. Get the 9mm good practice and cheap and later you can pick up a larger gun to carry.
My friend has a Kimber .45, real expensive, real nice. Kicks like a mule. I do not reccommend a .45 for a first time buyer or a woman.

I'm considering buying a Glock 10mm but the ammo baby, it's over the top expensive. However, the gun has stopping power, and it comes with a high capacity magazine so that's nice.

.40S&W is just a real nice option and ammo is reasonable. However, if someone does want to go with a 9mm then I'd get a semi-auto with a steel frame that can take the stronger rounds (+P & ++P). The thing about a 9mm is cheap ammo, accuracy is good, fun to shoot and can shoot all day long. I've got a friend who has a glock 9mm with a 30 round magazine. Good times!
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:49 AM   #64
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Most folks do not just target shoot, have a brother that uses a 22 and a 17 for hunting varmints on his ranch.. he loads the 17 with a LR high power 22 shell that has the 17 as the slug.. he is hitting ground squirrels at in excess of 300 yard.
The crows follow him when he goes out in the hunting truck.

 
I'd love to know more about that load as even 250 yards is pushing it for the 17.

We have a redtail that follows us out many times. Very effective clean up though.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:58 AM   #65
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Bad statistics. Your wording "and love" is misleading, because those numbers include intentional shootings of those who are acquainted or related. The vast majority of crimes in this country take place between people who "know" each other (and domestic crimes are a huge part of it). That statistic is often worded falsely to make it seem like it's referring to the accidental shooting of a kid or something.

And, when you include brandishment of the weapon in self-defense (not just shooting a perpetrator), it goes through the roof the other way.

You are much more likely to use a gun in defense of yourself than you are to accidentally shoot someone you know. (In other words, if you exclude intentional shootings and crimes, and include defensive uses of the gun other than actually putting a bullet in someone, it's a blowout in favor of gun ownership). And most importantly, these risks are something you have some control over -- you are a person, not a statistic. Your choices can affect your destiny.

Other handy tips for people -- whenever you hear a statistic about "children" and guns, they are including "children" up until the age of 18, and not pointing out that the numbers are hugely made up of gang-related criminal shootings of teenage boys. Also, they have been caught red-handed before counting "children" up to the age of 21.
You can narrow it down. The odds are much greater your gun in the house in much more likely to kill your spouse or your child than any intruder. It is not even close. I have two rifles and a pistol myself but none of them are for "Home Protection" They are locked away and unloaded.
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:04 PM   #66
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Actually, because of the weight of 1911's, and the low velocity of the .45, in most cases the perceived recoil is lighter than .40s, and some would even argue 9mm, but I disagree. .40s tend to be snappier, with more muzzle flip. This is aided by the fact that in the majority of cases the .40 is in a much lighter gun than the .45 (I say most, because you can get a light Glock/M&P/Etc. in .45, but with the 1911, you are aided by the weight of the gun).
Absolutely. It's a better shoot than a .40. that's why I have one. The problem with the .45 from home defense perspective is it will most likely go through drywall and hit someone in another room you didn't intend to hit. A .40 is less likely to do that. Also there is a saftey issue with the 1911 in that if you want to keep a round chambered you'll have to either keep it cocked with the thumb saftey or de-cock it by pulling the trigger with the thumb on the hammer. Which I don't think is a comfortable situation.
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:12 PM   #67
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Col. Nathan R. Jessep: Walk softly and carry an armored tank division, I always say.


http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm

Personally I think that a 3.5" 12 ga with 0 or 00 will stop anyone whether their on the other side of the door or inside. Just DO be sure of your target. The Benelli line has recoil reduction models.

The Glock is an excellent platform, easy to use and clean, simple and reliable. My Glock 21 is equipped with a flashlight/laser pointer, I highly recommend that option; see what you're shooting at and the flash strobe is very effective in blinding a human to give you time to locate and fire accurately. Thirteen rounds in a magazine and multiple magazines which are easy to load into the firearm. Hollow point rounds will expand greatly and provide an extreme shock to vital organs. The .45 ACP is a seriously loud round...any bad guys are going to know that this isn't a wimpy round coming their way.

I highly recommend that you become a skilled shooter and well aware of your weapon and your capabilities before you think about conceal carry.
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:13 PM   #68
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ok I will bite on the caliber war. I own:
glock 17 9mm
H&K USP compact .40
Sig p220 ST .45
Remington 870 12 gauge
an AK and a few others.


Since this is your first gun I would vote 9mm. Mostly because ammo is cheaper and you are going to want to practice as much as you can. Shot placement is the key no matter what major caliber in a handgun. That said when I carry I dont carry my 9mm and choose the .40 and .45. I have been shooting since I was a child and 100% confident I am going to hit what I am aiming at no matter which of my platforms I am carrying at the time.

The reason I recommended the FN's FNX (perfered) is because you are left handed, gun has a decocker, and they have a safety. Also its in your price range. As much as I love my Glock I cant recommend it to a new gun owner for the simple fact it does not have a safety. Same thing with my p220. I am not saying they are bad guns far from it, I am saying the features dont lend themselves to new gun owners. Feel free to flame me here but I dont care and stand by my opinions. Sig, Glock, S&W, H&K, FN, and Ruger make wonderful guns. As I read in another post stay away from Taurus and kel-tec.

The real question is: Is the main duty for this gun home defense or range gun. If you are serious about the HD thing skip handguns and go get a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500 or 590. Done. If you want a range gun get a good solid 9mm shoot the piss out of it and enjoy.
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:17 PM   #69
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Absolutely. It's a better shoot than a .40. that's why I have one. The problem with the .45 from home defense perspective is it will most likely go through drywall and hit someone in another room you didn't intend to hit. A .40 is less likely to do that. Also there is a saftey issue with the 1911 in that if you want to keep a round chambered you'll have to either keep it cocked with the thumb saftey or de-cock it by pulling the trigger with the thumb on the hammer. Which I don't think is a comfortable situation.
Using any quality, modern handgun ammunition, ALL of the duty calibers (9mm, .40, .45) will go through multiple layers of dry wall. There is little if any difference in the penetration of .45 vs. 9mm.

Ironically, while the anti-gun people demonize AR15's, the fact is that most 5.56/.223 bullets will penetrate FAR fewer walls than any handgun, which is actually why a lot of SWAT type agencies have gone to AR15's chambered in 9mm, because it will penetrate walls and still penetrate the bad guy.

Unfortunately, there is no good solution to penetration of walls in the house (or leaving the house) with handguns, short of hitting the bad guy you are defending yourself with.
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:23 PM   #70
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ok I will bite on the caliber war. I own:
glock 17 9mm
H&K USP compact .40
Sig p220 ST .45
Remington 870 12 gauge
an AK and a few others.


Since this is your first gun I would vote 9mm. Mostly because ammo is cheaper and you are going to want to practice as much as you can. Shot placement is the key no matter what major caliber in a handgun. That said when I carry I dont carry my 9mm and choose the .40 and .45. I have been shooting since I was a child and 100% confident I am going to hit what I am aiming at no matter which of my platforms I am carrying at the time.

The reason I recommended the FN's FNX (perfered) is because you are left handed, gun has a decocker, and they have a safety. Also its in your price range. As much as I love my Glock I cant recommend it to a new gun owner for the simple fact it does not have a safety. Same thing with my p220. I am not saying they are bad guns far from it, I am saying the features dont lend themselves to new gun owners. Feel free to flame me here but I dont care and stand by my opinions. Sig, Glock, S&W, H&K, FN, and Ruger make wonderful guns. As I read in another post stay away from Taurus and kel-tec.

The real question is: Is the main duty for this gun home defense or range gun. If you are serious about the HD thing skip handguns and go get a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500 or 590. Done. If you want a range gun get a good solid 9mm shoot the piss out of it and enjoy.
I'm mixed on the safety thing. I think in many ways people learning with a DAO is the best choice, because the must learn that you never put your finger on the trigger unless you want it to go bang. A number of people in here have recommended revolvers, which are double action and don't have safeties -- but, granted the trigger pull on revolvers is typically quite a bit higher than on Glocks.

A lot depends on how much you are going to practice and train for your eventual use of a gun in self defense. There have been far too many cases of people pulling on the trigger in vain, not knowing why the gun didn't go bang, and it was because with the adrenaline pumping in that critical moment, they didn't take the safety off. Because they didn't train enough, to have that safety come off after the gun cleared the holster and rotated forward. Using a gun with a safety, especially the 1911 platform, requires a lot more practice to ensure that when your life depends on it you will be able to defend yourself.

While I love shooting 1911's on the range, I have standardized on DAO's for self defense guns.
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:23 PM   #71
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oh and a couple other things. I would stay away from 1911's. They are awesome guns and was even thinking of getting the magnum research 1911 earlier this year just they are not "simple" guns. My simple I mean they are not the easiest of firearms to take down and clean. I would say a 1911 would not be the best starter firearm and they can tend to be pretty expensive as well. Plus .45 ammo is freaking expensive as well so a range trip for 100 rounds is going to cost you 40-45$ vs 20-25 for 9mm.

Guns are like potato chips you cant have just one.
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:25 PM   #72
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I'm mixed on the safety thing. I think in many ways people learning with a DAO is the best choice, because the must learn that you never put your finger on the trigger unless you want it to go bang. A number of people in here have recommended revolvers, which are double action and don't have safeties -- but, granted the trigger pull on revolvers is typically quite a bit higher than on Glocks.

A lot depends on how much you are going to practice and train for your eventual use of a gun in self defense. There have been far too many cases of people pulling on the trigger in vain, not knowing why the gun didn't go bang, and it was because with the adrenaline pumping in that critical moment, they didn't take the safety off. Because they didn't train enough, to have that safety come off after the gun cleared the holster and rotated forward. Using a gun with a safety, especially the 1911 platform, requires a lot more practice to ensure that when your life depends on it you will be able to defend yourself.

While I love shooting 1911's on the range, I have standardized on DAO's for self defense guns.

yep I hear you. All I know is I cc my H&K, OC my p220 and if someone breaks in my house I am grabbing the 870.
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:27 PM   #73
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.357 ruger blackhawk ..... any occasion.

.45 llama subcompact 10rnds. good for concealment but a cheap gun. I needed slide and trigger work to have it not stove.
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:54 PM   #74
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You can narrow it down. The odds are much greater your gun in the house in much more likely to kill your spouse or your child than any intruder. It is not even close. I have two rifles and a pistol myself but none of them are for "Home Protection" They are locked away and unloaded.
Do they really have that great of stats on that? Because using a gun can just be arming yourself to ward off an intruder, many times you don't have to shoot if intruder unarmed. I'm not sure there are more accidents then there are times a person uses a gun as a tool with success. It's just the accidents get all the press, or the killings etc. No one hears the story about how i heard someone in back yard, got shotgun, turned on light, dude saw shotgun and ran etc etc
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:57 PM   #75
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yep I hear you. All I know is I cc my H&K, OC my p220 and if someone breaks in my house I am grabbing the 870.
No OC around here, but I CC a PM9 or M&P 40c (almost always the .40), but am seriously thinking about switching to an M&P 9c. The simple fact is that good 9mm ammo does as well as .40 in testing and OIS reports, and in the compact pistol the 9mm both has more rounds and if I am honest, I will shoot it better -- or more accurately, faster, in terms of getting back on target. On top of that, 9mm is quite a bit cheaper to practice with and the NUMBER one factor in self defense is speed and accuracy, which only comes from training (courses) and practice.

Essentially, the same logic that's resulting in a lot of the police departments that moved to .40s now in the process of moving back to 9mm's.
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