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Old 05-27-2012, 03:51 AM   #301
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It's not JV's fault this team can't score any runs....he's picked up right where he left off last year.
...which makes you wonder why "wins" was ever such an important stat for a pitcher. It would be interesting to go back through the years and look at who won the Cy Young award vs who should have won. Wins had such a big impact on that for so long.
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:23 AM   #302
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Baseball is such a ****ty sport.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:41 AM   #303
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...which makes you wonder why "wins" was ever such an important stat for a pitcher. It would be interesting to go back through the years and look at who won the Cy Young award vs who should have won. Wins had such a big impact on that for so long.
Because pitchers weren't any good unless they pitched well enough to earn their team a victory, remember?
Its fascinating how things have changed, and SO quickly by the way.
Just look at 2005, with Bartolo Colon winning the AL CY.
21-8 record looks amazing, but a 3.48 ERA, WHIP 1.159, only 157 K's in 200+ innings worked.
Johan Santana finished 3rd that year in voting going 16-7, 2.87 ERA, WHIP of .971, and 238 K's in 231 innings pitched.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:21 PM   #304
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...which makes you wonder why "wins" was ever such an important stat for a pitcher. It would be interesting to go back through the years and look at who won the Cy Young award vs who should have won. Wins had such a big impact on that for so long.
Wins had long since been an important pitching stat before teams became so stacked that they could carry a pitcher to victory consistently without the pitcher's help. There is still some correlation between wins and overall pitching performance, although it is not nearly as big a correlation as it used to be. Also the Cy Young award, like any other individual award, is often weighted to players who play on better teams, i.e. those who generally have more wins.

These are the factors which make wins an important stat (albeit overrated) to this day. Not saying I agree with it, but that's a lot of the reasoning right there.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:29 PM   #305
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Old 05-27-2012, 02:06 PM   #306
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Wins had long since been an important pitching stat before teams became so stacked that they could carry a pitcher to victory consistently without the pitcher's help. There is still some correlation between wins and overall pitching performance, although it is not nearly as big a correlation as it used to be. Also the Cy Young award, like any other individual award, is often weighted to players who play on better teams, i.e. those who generally have more wins.

These are the factors which make wins an important stat (albeit overrated) to this day. Not saying I agree with it, but that's a lot of the reasoning right there.
Well teams were stacked in the 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s...and then it started again in the 90s.

Im not saying it should only be about the ERA, or whatever. If a pitcher has a 9-0 lead, he will be more likely to throw it over the plate. But that's usually not the case and things like ERA is a much better guage for how someone pitched than wins.

But like I said, MLB goes way back in terms of having stacked teams.

Most likely what it is, is that a "win" is a statistic that sportswriters in a place like NYC started pushing. What's confusing is how it was so heavily emphasized for so long. I'm not really a sabermetrician and I have always questioned the validity of relying on this, so heavily, as a way to judge pitchers.
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Old 05-27-2012, 02:11 PM   #307
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Because pitchers weren't any good unless they pitched well enough to earn their team a victory, remember?
Its fascinating how things have changed, and SO quickly by the way.
Just look at 2005, with Bartolo Colon winning the AL CY.
21-8 record looks amazing, but a 3.48 ERA, WHIP 1.159, only 157 K's in 200+ innings worked.
Johan Santana finished 3rd that year in voting going 16-7, 2.87 ERA, WHIP of .971, and 238 K's in 231 innings pitched.
In 1987, Nolan Ryan led the NL in ERA (2.76), strike outs (270), hits:9 IP, and Ks:BB. His record that year was 8-16, so, of course, he didn't win the Cy Young that year. He finished 5th. Wins were THAT important in the voting.

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Old 05-27-2012, 02:44 PM   #308
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Well teams were stacked in the 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s...and then it started again in the 90s.

Im not saying it should only be about the ERA, or whatever. If a pitcher has a 9-0 lead, he will be more likely to throw it over the plate. But that's usually not the case and things like ERA is a much better guage for how someone pitched than wins.

But like I said, MLB goes way back in terms of having stacked teams.

Most likely what it is, is that a "win" is a statistic that sportswriters in a place like NYC started pushing. What's confusing is how it was so heavily emphasized for so long. I'm not really a sabermetrician and I have always questioned the validity of relying on this, so heavily, as a way to judge pitchers.
You don't have to be a sabermetrician to think that wins are overrated. The problem is, by the time the Cy Young award was even being handed out, you're working against 75 years of history. Back as early as baseball existed, wins was the easiest thing for someone to identify with. The game has changed a lot since then, as clearly has the analysis. Nowadays you've got people arguing other things than wins for the award, and their influence is far greater than before. However it still comes down to there being the philosophy that the best players on the best teams should get consideration (who are likely going to have more wins), much like the MVP or any other award.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:20 PM   #309
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You don't have to be a sabermetrician to think that wins are overrated. The problem is, by the time the Cy Young award was even being handed out, you're working against 75 years of history. Back as early as baseball existed, wins was the easiest thing for someone to identify with. The game has changed a lot since then, as clearly has the analysis. Nowadays you've got people arguing other things than wins for the award, and their influence is far greater than before. However it still comes down to there being the philosophy that the best players on the best teams should get consideration (who are likely going to have more wins), much like the MVP or any other award.
It's a moot point now. The voters have gotten wiser. Felix Hernandez won the AL Cy Young in 2011 with 13 wins. Who ever thought we would see that?

While wins shouldn't be the overriding factor, they should matter in the voting. As long as MLB differentiates teams by W-L records, victories are important. 20 wins in today's age of 6-7 inning starts is no easy task.

Some stat nerds like Voros McCracken are so extreme they feel pitchers can only control Ks, BBs and HR allowed. It's almost like fantasy baseball has taken over real baseball.

I think metrics are important in evaluating true performance of pitchers and making decisions on long-term contracts that involve 100 million contracts.

But **** any dominant starting pitcher who can't even win 10 games. That guy has no business the Cy Young. I don't even care what the excuse is. It's a team sport.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:37 PM   #310
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Tigers get a much needed sweep of the Twins this weekend.

Miggy goes yard in the 9th inning today to put the Tigers ahead today for a 4-3 win.

I wouldn't trade his bat for anyone else in the league.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:40 PM   #311
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I realize that is a bold statement with the way Josh Hamilton is raking, but he usually gets hurt and misses a bunch of games every year, while Miggy is usually good for 157 to 160 games a year.
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:04 PM   #312
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Quintin Berry has given the team a nice spark and adds some much needed speed.
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Old 05-28-2012, 04:08 PM   #313
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You don't have to be a sabermetrician to think that wins are overrated. The problem is, by the time the Cy Young award was even being handed out, you're working against 75 years of history. Back as early as baseball existed, wins was the easiest thing for someone to identify with. The game has changed a lot since then, as clearly has the analysis. Nowadays you've got people arguing other things than wins for the award, and their influence is far greater than before. However it still comes down to there being the philosophy that the best players on the best teams should get consideration (who are likely going to have more wins), much like the MVP or any other award.
While we're at it, slugging % has been vastly underrated as a stat, while batting average has been overrated. It's kind of dumb that they rely on a stat that doesn't differentiate a HR from a single. When compared to slugging %, batting average kind of becomes a stat that's more about "avoiding making an out". But if you're going to go that route, you might as well include walks and reaching by error.
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Old 05-28-2012, 04:22 PM   #314
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Felix Doubront is becoming a very good pitcher. Now I understand why John Farrell said he had top of rotation stuff.

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Old 05-28-2012, 04:46 PM   #315
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While we're at it, slugging % has been vastly underrated as a stat, while batting average has been overrated. It's kind of dumb that they rely on a stat that doesn't differentiate a HR from a single. When compared to slugging %, batting average kind of becomes a stat that's more about "avoiding making an out". But if you're going to go that route, you might as well include walks and reaching by error.
For sure, and OBP is a much more telling stat than AVG as well, measuring how often you get on base, more or less. OPS (OBP + SLG) is a good measure of offense, as is the Runs Created stat.

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, average is what we were left with. My guess is back in the latter third of the 19th century, when the game was played everywhere and everyone was on a team, it was easier for people to keep track of. Baseball is interesting in a way because of its constant comparison back to its past, and for nearly 50 years, no one hit more than like 10 home runs a year.

There are tons of useless (or I should say misleading) stats in baseball, a lot of them like batting average and wins are holdovers from ancient baseball history, IMO. But some of the recent stats are pointless, too. Saves, for example.
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Old 05-28-2012, 04:46 PM   #316
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Chris ****ing Sale...15 K's...Go Sox!
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Old 05-28-2012, 08:51 PM   #317
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I think the Dodgers need to get Oswalt. Harang just isn't getting it done early this season and Bills just doesn't want to be a good pitcher.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/0...oy-oswalt.html
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:27 AM   #318
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Baseball is such a ****ty sport.
You mean the Blast Trumbo had tonight to beat the Yankees 9 to 8 in the bottom of the 9th? Yeah, such **** and absolutely no drama. 7 in a row! Hope Weaver is A OK. Came out of the 1st with back problems.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:36 AM   #319
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You mean the Blast Trumbo had tonight to beat the Yankees 9 to 8 in the bottom of the 9th? Yeah, such **** and absolutely no drama. 7 in a row! Hope Weaver is A OK. Came out of the 1st with back problems.
People who think baseball is a ****ty sport are too stupid to understand how it's not.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:47 AM   #320
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For sure, and OBP is a much more telling stat than AVG as well, measuring how often you get on base, more or less. OPS (OBP + SLG) is a good measure of offense, as is the Runs Created stat.

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, average is what we were left with. My guess is back in the latter third of the 19th century, when the game was played everywhere and everyone was on a team, it was easier for people to keep track of. Baseball is interesting in a way because of its constant comparison back to its past, and for nearly 50 years, no one hit more than like 10 home runs a year.

There are tons of useless (or I should say misleading) stats in baseball, a lot of them like batting average and wins are holdovers from ancient baseball history, IMO. But some of the recent stats are pointless, too. Saves, for example.
Saves always gives makes me wonder why 3 runs indicated a save. A pitcher can come into a game with a 4-1 lead, give up back to back homeruns, and then three straight ground ball outs and he gets a save. A closer should be able to protect a 3 run lead in the 9th 99% of the time.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:25 AM   #321
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I think the Dodgers need to get Oswalt.
If the Phillies get bad news on Halladay (seeing a doc today for his sore shoulder) I'd expect them to get involved for Oswalt. And I'm surprised the Yankees aren't being mentioned although I know they've been disinterested in him before because of his recurring back issues.
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Old 05-29-2012, 08:07 AM   #322
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If the Phillies get bad news on Halladay (seeing a doc today for his sore shoulder) I'd expect them to get involved for Oswalt. And I'm surprised the Yankees aren't being mentioned although I know they've been disinterested in him before because of his recurring back issues.
I don't think he wants to pitch there or with the dodgers. His lists of teams he wants to pitch for seems weak to me. If he picks Philly he isn't concerned with winning a championship
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:54 AM   #323
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I don't think he wants to pitch there or with the dodgers. His lists of teams he wants to pitch for seems weak to me. If he picks Philly he isn't concerned with winning a championship
ESPN reports that any team would have to outbid the Rangers. Oswalt didn't have a very good year for a team stacked with great players.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:56 AM   #324
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Chris ****ing Sale...15 K's...Go Sox!
Did you see Paulie's last at bat? He was able to get a hit to extend his now 14 game hitting streak! Very exciting year so far for the WS! I hope it holds through to the WS!

I admit to being a fair weather baseball fan but the Sox have held my attention so far this year.

Plus yesterday Tom (Wimpy) Paciorek was back in the booth with Ken (Hawk) Harrelson. My favorite baseball announcing team ever. If you have the chance catch the rest of this series with the Rays.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:47 PM   #325
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The White Sox success confounds me right now. I honestly don't think they will really make a strong push for the playoffs, unless their pitching "stablizes" and they get consistency from throughout their lineup.
Just a glance, but there looks to be ZERO depth for the Sox, exactly one guy on the bench hitting .200 or better and ironically its right at .200.

Then again, that whole division is a big crapshoot.
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