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Old 05-25-2012, 07:58 AM   #276
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I disagree. Having Tebow as a backup means having to change the entire offense to fit your backup should Manning go down. You go from running a pass first-offense to a run-first offense where the quarterback isn't accurate enough to pass. That's a massive shift.
Yeah, because Caleb Hanie is going to step up and start running the no huddle like a pro if Manning goes down right?

No Manning = No Manning offense. We know that the Tebow Cat can be implemented in a week with positive results (we did it last year and immediately went on a win streak). No pass first offense in NFL history could ever do that, simply due to receiver timing.

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Yeah, Hanie's been terrible. I don't disagree. I just don't see that keeping Tebow was a legitimate option for the Broncos, in part because of what he is (and more importantly what he ISN'T) on the football field, in part because his fans are stark raving lunatics.
The second part (his fans) is irrelevant as it pertains to the Denver Broncos Football Club.

The first point is a strawman we've already resolved.

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Frankly, I'd be surprised if Hanie goes into the season at #2.
Replaced by who? Osweiler? That sounds like a great way to completely dick up Osweiler's development by making him use his new throwing motion too early when he still doesn't know the offense or how to read NFL level coverage.

Tebow was the ideal buffer here. The team could have shifted gears on the fly if they lost Manning and used the same strategy that got them into the playoffs last year until Manning was healthy, relying on our D. He's young enough to keep Osweiler off the field while Brock develops fully. You let Tebow play out his contract behind Manning as that buffer and then let him walk with Osweiler fully ready to step in if needed.

Instead if we lose Manning early we probably will start Osweiler before too long, and it will be to the detriment of both Osweiler himself and the long term return this team could have gotten out of him.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:01 AM   #277
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More of this same ****?

Do you ever even try to make legitimate arguments? Do you understand the point of debate? Point v. counter-point rational discussion of an issue? Or do you just view the entire world as your own personal audience to rant your obtuse views on everything at, and when it comes to Tim Tebow this forum is your megaphone of choice?

Sure as **** feels like the later.
My argument: Tim Tebow would be the best fullback in league history -- RIGHT NOW -- if he switched positions.

My argument: The combination of needing to change the offense to a 1920s version and his insane fanbase means having Tebow at backup is not the great thing that you make it out to be.

My argument: That if the Jets were really serious about having Tim be a legitimate backup QB, they wouldn't have him in harm's way blocking on punts.

I don't think he's a legitimate NFL QB. I just don't. That's what's called "an opinion." You think he's destined for greatness, I'd rather not wait around to see if the long shot comes true.

And while Caleb Hanie is nobody's idea of a great backup, he'll do in the short term while the circus moves out of town. What's more, he's actually performed in a throw-first offense. And on top of all that, I don't think Hanie is going to be the number 2 going into the season.

And yeah, I was personally tired of the Tebow circus. Here, in the stadium, in the papers, everywhere, for a guy who quite simply isn't all that good at the position he's chosen to play. He could get better, sure, I just think it's far from a sure thing.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:02 AM   #278
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That's RIGHT! First week of the Tebowcat against the mighty mighty Dolphins.

/yawn

Wake me when the Tebowtards leave.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:03 AM   #279
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You're just completely incapable of having an honest discussion when it involves Tebow.

You spent the last two seasons hating on everything he did, including when he won this team it's first division title and playoff game since Jake Plummer was the QB.

Then after looking like an idiot over all those anti-Tebow rants you frame all that angst that made you look like a whiny b**** as a problem with "Tebow's fans", like anyone who really puts the Broncos first and foremost as a football fan gives a **** what some trailer park Florida pan handle meth cooker thinks about the Denver Broncos.

Now instead of actually discussing the merits of Tebow the FOOTBALL PLAYER you come into threads like this, avoid real football discussion like the black plague, and label other Bronco fans as "Tebow fans" while showing a complete unwillingness to take any rebuttals seriously by discounting everything with "WELL NOW WE GOTS MANNING!" bull****.

Newsflash: A lot of real die hard Broncos fans saw that Tebow has a unique level of very real FOOTBALL TALENT last season. All of those people are real happy to have Manning. None of them SHOULD be happy to have Caleb Hanie backing him up.

It was a dumb football move made by a front office that isn't secure in their own ability to manage this team's image. It has downgraded the quality of this roster in a very real way. Is it something that will ruin a season? Well that depends on how healthy Peyton Manning is. But its a BIG gamble for jack **** payoff.

So grow up and talk real football on a football forum. Stop trying to turn this into a "his fans are bullies!" little school yard sissy fight to hide the axe you've been grinding for the guy since the first day he became a Bronco.
Now that some time has passed I am thinking E&F decided to do right by Tebow. They knew that he was never going to be in our long range plans so they gave the kid the chance to pursue his career as a starting NFL qb. They even accommodated him going to the Jets for a lesser deal than the Jags offered. E&F want a pocket passer and doubted Tebow was ever going to be that QBOTF. Drafting Osweller in the second with a win now plan A clearly shows that direction.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:04 AM   #280
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Now that some time has passed I am thinking E&F decided to do right by Tebow. They knew that he was never going to be in our long range plans so they gave the kid the chance to pursue his career as a starting NFL qb. They even accommodated him going to the Jets for a lesser deal than the Jags offered. E&F want a pocket passer and doubted Tebow was ever going to be that QBOTF. Drafting Osweller in the second with a win now plan A clearly shows that direction.
This.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:06 AM   #281
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I don't think he's a legitimate NFL QB.
And this is an important point that some people are missing. Elway and Fox decided it was the best thing for the organization to bring in a young QB (Osweiler) to groom for the future. It's much easier to do that when you don't already have a guy who wants to be that guy.

Edit to add that baja pretty much beat me to it...
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:15 AM   #282
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My argument: Tim Tebow would be the best fullback in league history -- RIGHT NOW -- if he switched positions.

My argument: The combination of needing to change the offense to a 1920s version and his insane fanbase means having Tebow at backup is not the great thing that you make it out to be.
Again, fan base is irrelevant. No real Broncos fan cares, the FO shouldn't care. No Tebowmaniac as a vote in how the Broncos use him. In other words: Screw 'em.

His different skill set are an inherent part of his value. That throw back style actually WORKED last year, and was especially effective over a short stretch. This in a post-wild cat world so teams had something of a recipe on how to deal with it. That style of offense was also implemented on the fly mid-season. Again, hugely valuable since we can't keep running the Manning offense without Manning. No one could do it in Indy last year with a fully acclimated supporting cast of veterans. It isn't happening here.

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My argument: That if the Jets were really serious about having Tim be a legitimate backup QB, they wouldn't have him in harm's way blocking on punts.
I think the Jets are really serious about doing everything they can to get play makers on the field. Tebow is a play maker. He's also their #2 QB, so much so that they traded the recently signed Drew Stanton (supposed to be their #2) for nothing from the Colts after acquiring Tebow. If they weren't serious I doubt they'd have lined themselves up without a safety net.

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I don't think he's a legitimate NFL QB. I just don't. That's what's called "an opinion." You think he's destined for greatness, I'd rather not wait around to see if the long shot comes true.
1. I think he has potential for greatness. I back it up by pointing out the early success he's had, the very real, very rare skills he shares with other great QBs, and how dominant he can be in the right system (from college).

2. Opinions are like a-holes. Everybody has them. If you want yours to be viewed as anything more than what most a-holes put out back it up with some reasonable arguments.

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And while Caleb Hanie is nobody's idea of a great backup, he'll do in the short term while the circus moves out of town. What's more, he's actually performed in a throw-first offense. And on top of all that, I don't think Hanie is going to be the number 2 going into the season.
By "performed in a throw-first offense" you mean he's got a 41.6 career QB rating, a 50.9% completion rate, and a 3:10 TD to INT ratio.

Meanwhile the guy you say can't pass has a 75.1 career QB rating, 47.3% completion rate, and 17 to 9 TD to INT ratio.

Also, that same guy started three games as a rookie in 2010 in what was still a pass first pro style offense. He had a QB rating then of 82.1, completed 50% of his passes, and had a 5 to 3 TD to INT ratio. This on the second worst team in the league with no running game, horrible defense, and no special teams help.

So when you act like Hanie is a better fit for a pass first offense I'm left to ask what possibly supports that notion.

Further, if Hanie is not the #2 then this organization is taking a massive risk with Osweiler's very fragile development.

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And yeah, I was personally tired of the Tebow circus. Here, in the stadium, in the papers, everywhere, for a guy who quite simply isn't all that good at the position he's chosen to play. He could get better, sure, I just think it's far from a sure thing.
Making decisions based on personal fatigue/dismay with an ancillary element to the decision is how most failure begins.

Tebow's mass appeal should have had zero involvement in the decision, if the Broncos FO really is focused on putting together the best possible team for multiple title runs.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:19 AM   #283
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That's RIGHT! First week of the Tebowcat against the mighty mighty Dolphins.

/yawn

Wake me when the Tebowtards leave.
The Broncos didn't implement the Tebow Cat until after the Lions game. Prior to that point McCoy was still trying to run the same ****ty offense he installed for Orton. Hence why Tebow threw the ball 39 times against the Lions when our OL was getting destroyed every drop back all day long.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:22 AM   #284
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E&F are old school so for better or worse they wanted no part of the Tebow experiment. They are too set in their ways to risk the future of the Broncos on Tebow's potential. A decision we well may live to regret.

I have high hopes for Osweller as our QBOTF
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:22 AM   #285
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I think he has potential for greatness...
It's fine to have that opinion. And who knows, maybe you'll end up being right. But it's apparent that few, if any, organizations in the NFL agree with you based on the lukewarm (at best) interest in him when the Broncos made him available.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:26 AM   #286
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Now that some time has passed I am thinking E&F decided to do right by Tebow. They knew that he was never going to be in our long range plans so they gave the kid the chance to pursue his career as a starting NFL qb. They even accommodated him going to the Jets for a lesser deal than the Jags offered. E&F want a pocket passer and doubted Tebow was ever going to be that QBOTF. Drafting Osweller in the second with a win now plan A clearly shows that direction.
So you're in favor of the front office making bad football moves based around personal preference?

Its as simple as this really:

1. Is Tebow a better backup option than Hanie? Obviously.

2. Does Tebow offer more as a part of the 53 man roster than Hanie, outside of being the #2 QB? Obviously.

3. Is Osweiler even close to ready? Seeings how they're tweaking his throwing mechanics and have already talked about him as a "long term" plan guy I'd say it's a pretty clear no.

So given those three little factoids why would we then let Tebow's style of play make us settle for a #2 who is in every way inferior to Tebow?

Hanie is even a worse pocket passer than Tebow, so regardless of where Tebow's skills may lie and what this org. might prefer he's still a better option, even shoehorned into a bad fit for him.

The beauty of it all is that then we get to have two wildly different young QBs to groom so we've got two bites at the apple when it comes to replacing Manning, not just one. The odds are against Tebow taking a miraculous step forward and becoming a full fledged pocket passer, but he makes us a better team in the interim while we wait for Osweiler to get ready and we hold onto the lottery ticket of him taking that very step forward.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:29 AM   #287
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It's fine to have that opinion. And who knows, maybe you'll end up being right. But it's apparent that few, if any, organizations in the NFL agree with you based on the lukewarm (at best) interest in him when the Broncos made him available.
I'd disagree. I think many view him as someone with potential for greatness, just not a high likelihood of achieving that potential. He's the ultimate boom/bust prospect.

But he's a boom/bust prospect we already paid for and had already found a worthwhile niche that would make the 2012 Broncos a better team. Why sell that for pennies on the dollar if winning really is the top priority?

Also, his pricing on the open market was in no way accurate. The Broncos made it quite clear he was going to get released if no trade was consummated. They had no bargaining power to get the truly best offers from anyone.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:32 AM   #288
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So you're in favor of the front office making bad football moves based around personal preference?

Its as simple as this really:

1. Is Tebow a better backup option than Hanie? Obviously.

2. Does Tebow offer more as a part of the 53 man roster than Hanie, outside of being the #2 QB? Obviously.

3. Is Osweiler even close to ready? Seeings how they're tweaking his throwing mechanics and have already talked about him as a "long term" plan guy I'd say it's a pretty clear no.

So given those three little factoids why would we then let Tebow's style of play make us settle for a #2 who is in every way inferior to Tebow?

Hanie is even a worse pocket passer than Tebow, so regardless of where Tebow's skills may lie and what this org. might prefer he's still a better option, even shoehorned into a bad fit for him.

The beauty of it all is that then we get to have two wildly different young QBs to groom so we've got two bites at the apple when it comes to replacing Manning, not just one. The odds are against Tebow taking a miraculous step forward and becoming a full fledged pocket passer, but he makes us a better team in the interim while we wait for Osweiler to get ready and we hold onto the lottery ticket of him taking that very step forward.
As I said before this move was more about a kindness to Tebow than anything else. You got only so many reps to give your back ups. Reps they did not intend to spend on Tebow so they let him go to a team that is willing to do that. In other words they did right by the guy that gave everything he had as a Bronco.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:33 AM   #289
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A potential for greatness yes, but as a football player or a QB? Not many QBs with potentials for greatness are thrown onto special teams. It's déjà vu. Sanchez is Orton now. Looks great in practice and camp while tebow struggles. Happened the exact same way last summer. Come regular season it will be the same road as the broncos took. 5 or so games in when Sanchez struggles tebow will get the call.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:33 AM   #290
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Drek, I commend you for bringing facts and being able to discuss this issue the way you have. However, you are not going to change the minds in the likes of TEKO, Tony, Baja etc. Allthough it is fun to watch you mop the floor with TEKO on the issue. It is helping to pass the time at work.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:34 AM   #291
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All the b****ing in the world isn't bringing him back to Denver. It doesn't matter if you are right about him being great or if he is out of football in 2 years. He aint retiring a Bronco, so, time to move along.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:36 AM   #292
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Drek, I commend you for bringing facts and being able to discuss this issue the way you have. However, you are not going to change the minds in the likes of TEKO, Tony, Baja etc. Allthough it is fun to watch you mop the floor with TEKO on the issue. It is helping to pass the time at work.
Hey I'm a big Tebow fan that is why I am happy for him that he got traded to a team that will give him a shot at playing QB. I will follow his career with much interest.

Keeping him would not be in his best interest why is that not clear?
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:40 AM   #293
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Keeping him would not be in his best interest why is that not clear?
So now you know what's best for Tebow?
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:41 AM   #294
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Drek, I commend you for bringing facts and being able to discuss this issue the way you have. However, you are not going to change the minds in the likes of TEKO, Tony, Baja etc. Allthough it is fun to watch you mop the floor with TEKO on the issue. It is helping to pass the time at work.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:41 AM   #295
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It's fine to have that opinion. And who knows, maybe you'll end up being right. But it's apparent that few, if any, organizations in the NFL agree with you based on the lukewarm (at best) interest in him when the Broncos made him available.
You do realize that the Manning thing took so long that some teams were at the brink of having to give up on Manning himself.

The Cards literally couldn't wait another day before they would've had to tell him "Thanks but no thanks" because of the need to pay Kolb otherwise.

Point being that by the time Tebow was put on the block, almost all other teams with needs had committed to other options.

In other words, we shopped Tebow at the worst possible time.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:43 AM   #296
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So now you know what's best for Tebow?
I would think almost every tebow fan knows Elway and Fox are NOT best for tebow. Shame you can't see that.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:44 AM   #297
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So now you know what's best for Tebow?
Let's see Tebow on a team that sees him as a potential QBOTF or Tebow on a team because he is a better one year back up than Henie. You tell me what is the best option for Tebow. Not hard to see really.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:46 AM   #298
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I would think almost every tebow fan knows Elway and Fox are NOT best for tebow. Shame you can't see that.
This.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:47 AM   #299
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You do realize that the Manning thing took so long that some teams were at the brink of having to give up on Manning himself.

The Cards literally couldn't wait another day before they would've had to tell him "Thanks but no thanks" because of the need to pay Kolb otherwise.

Point being that by the time Tebow was put on the block, almost all other teams with needs had committed to other options.

In other words, we shopped Tebow at the worst possible time.

So when they were shopping him back at the combine time, teams were already committed to other options?
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:48 AM   #300
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I would think almost every tebow fan knows Elway and Fox are NOT best for tebow. Shame you can't see that.
I think the Tebow debate at this point is really more about whether EF(-x) or Tebow would've been better, long term, for the Broncos.

That question has not yet been answered.
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