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Old 03-27-2012, 12:58 PM   #151
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On paper, yeah. Execution of something that is theoretically so simple is another matter, right?
Well, that is the point. There's no doubt no qb in football ever prepared to the detail level of Manning. It may be that the basics of a Peyton offense are pretty simple. I'm not sure that the link, or the one I put up yesterday that suggested a little more complexity in wr routes, are really correct. I recall shanny's passing offense required some post-snap reads, but I'd defer to Mediator on that.

But consistency of execution is Peyton's calling card. The ball is on the spot where it's supposed to be when it's supposed to be there. There are no surprises.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:05 PM   #152
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Well, that is the point. There's no doubt no qb in football ever prepared to the detail level of Manning. It may be that the basics of a Peyton offense are pretty simple. I'm not sure that the link, or the one I put up yesterday that suggested a little more complexity in wr routes, are really correct. I recall shanny's passing offense required some post-snap reads, but I'd defer to Mediator on that.

But consistency of execution is Peyton's calling card. The ball is on the spot where it's supposed to be when it's supposed to be there. There are no surprises.
Which is why he goes apoplectic when his receivers run the wrong route.

I hope Decker and DT and company understand how hard they are going to be worked.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:08 PM   #153
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Which is why he goes apoplectic when his receivers run the wrong route.

I hope Decker and DT and company understand how hard they are going to be worked.
I think he goes apoplectic (big words, love it) cause he knows he's gonna get his neck slammed.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:10 PM   #154
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I think he goes apoplectic (big words, love it) cause he knows he's gonna get his neck slammed.
I just remember stories of Peyton, Wayne and Harrison going over the timing of routes for hours and hours.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:10 PM   #155
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Wow! Guy takes a day off since the draft is slowing for a bit and i come back to this.

OK, where to start here.

1. It is not a strawman argument, even though you concocted a very simple one in response to my sarcasm. I guess I did not touch a nerve, I must have severed one Your logic is that DEN is so flawed from a personnel position that last years 8-8 record was simply an aberration even with the QB that must not be mentioned!

2. I am not even going to attempt to respond to your second part of your post. It's absurd, and has nothing to do with playing football. I too could set up an unwinnable argument for you, but that's not how life is in reality. I always show both sides and concede what is wrong because I do not get caught up in looking tough or having to be right.

3. Let's talk football:

A. Every team in the NFL has a playoff caliber element to it. To blindly ascribe teams actual ability is ridiculous. DEN was not an especially individually talented team last year, but they played much better than the sum of their parts, especially on defense. That is why team sports are so damn unpredictable. Teams play better or worse than the sum of their parts every week. The best ones simply out play the team across from them more often than not. So, please stop with the drama over talent. Talent means NOTHING without execution on game day. Something DEN proved mightily they COULD do last year.

I seriously do not think the most talented team won the SB last year. Just the best TEAM playing together at the right time. Much like GB last year. Both the past SB winners were barely Playoff participants.

B. INDY was not very talented in the Payton Manning era. And, it more than showed last year without him. What they were was a systems team, which I have already explained. Their OL has been extremely poor and only decent at protecting inside out. They were bottom 2 in run blocking, pass protection, and missed assignments. They are horrific versus what DEN already has with injured and young guys. Add in a QB who gets rid of the ball on time, rarely gets sacked, and takes you out of bad plays pre-snap and they instantly look a lot better and probably perform much better without any improvement themselves. What happens when they get healthy and get another year under their belt as well? I think they will do tremendously better because they will not have to protect as long and can have the presnap advantage instead of disadvantage they had with last years limited scheme.

C. INDY's defense was built to play with a lead and failed miserably when they had to play standard defense. DEN, not only played well when they were straight up with teams, they excelled down the stretch of close games. Imagine what they could do with a 2 score lead? DEN's defense has a lot more bite into them and having an offense that would be close to leading the league in average drive and Points per drive would only make them stronger. Also, not leading the league in 3 and outs and average FP wouldn't hurt them either.

When INDY went to the SB 3 years ago, the defense stepped up for Manning that year. They won 4 games when Manning did not put up 24 points like they were designed to do. It was only When their defensive stars got Hurt in the second half of the SB that they failed. Peyton was undefeated and in the SB with half a defense behind him. That TEAM played much better than their natural talent.

That is my argument, plain and simple. Yes, DEN needs more talented players at key spots. All teams do. However, the good and great teams find ways to win anyway. That was DEN last year. I think they will be better with Manning right off the bat and I think they need to find some Vet FA's to come on board and play like Bunkley did for them last year. There are still plenty of those guys out there and I hope they are not done.

Finally, There is an old Maxim in Consulting. "Never forget the NOW, in order to take advantage of the future. The future is never gauranteed. Only the Present."
Well, that's the key I guess. Like Champ was saying the other day, the rest of the team has to take the bull by the horns and play hard and smart, not stand around watching in awe as Manning plays.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:14 PM   #156
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Well, that's the key I guess. Like Champ was saying the other day, the rest of the team has to take the bull by the horns and play hard and smart, not stand around watching in awe as Manning plays.
I think building a winning NFL team is more of an art than a science. It's not just having somebody filling each position. It's the lockerroom, how many vets, how many rookies, personalities, coaches, trainers...

and then there's luck.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:17 PM   #157
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I just remember stories of Peyton, Wayne and Harrison going over the timing of routes for hours and hours.
Then of course there's this story:


What's Manning's next coach going to get?

"A player who is totally driven to make everyone around him better," Dungy says. "That, to me, is the gist of Peyton Manning.

"One of my last years in Indianapolis (2007), we drafted (Ohio State WR) Anthony Gonzalez in the first round. Well, because of the rules that prevented rookies from fully participating in the offseason program until their colleges had graduation, Anthony couldn't come in until sometime in June. He missed a lot of time.

"But Peyton drove twice a week to Columbus -- about a three-hour drive each way -- to work out with Anthony and get him ready to be our slot receiver. A lot of people don't know that he did that.

"But that's the kind of drive and tenacity that he has. That's what you'll get."


http://content.usatoday.com/communit...drive-memory/1
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:24 PM   #158
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Well, that is the point. There's no doubt no qb in football ever prepared to the detail level of Manning. It may be that the basics of a Peyton offense are pretty simple. I'm not sure that the link, or the one I put up yesterday that suggested a little more complexity in wr routes, are really correct. I recall shanny's passing offense required some post-snap reads, but I'd defer to Mediator on that.

But consistency of execution is Peyton's calling card. The ball is on the spot where it's supposed to be when it's supposed to be there. There are no surprises.
I can see how the basics of calling the play and adjustments at the LOS are relatively simple, as opposed to having a 30 second long play call come in from the sideline that the QB has to repeat verbatim to the huddle.

Calling most of the O at the LOS introduces some problems also. Well, we'll see what the O brain trust comes up with, and how quickly the O gets on the same page as Manning if they do indeed go with the no-huddle "Manning offense".
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:40 PM   #159
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I think building a winning NFL team is more of an art than a science. It's not just having somebody filling each position. It's the lockerroom, how many vets, how many rookies, personalities, coaches, trainers...

and then there's luck.
We'll see what they have this year and next in terms of the team chemistry. This is a very young team, and about to get even younger if they end up keeping most of their draft picks.

They have a strong coaching staff, IMO, so that should help.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:45 PM   #160
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We'll see what they have this year and next in terms of the team chemistry. This is a very young team, and about to get even younger if they end up keeping most of their draft picks.

They have a strong coaching staff, IMO, so that should help.
Fortunately, bringing in a guy like Manning is only going to help, as far as building a team ethos of professionalism, focus and effort. I think Champ and Dawkins bring that to the D already, and we saw that last year. It will be very interesting to see how this young Oline responds to Manning, especially. We're going from a young captain back there who was pretty wild and daring, to an old salt who can handle the ship in any weather (just to beat that metaphor to death).
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:09 PM   #161
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Wow! Guy takes a day off since the draft is slowing for a bit and i come back to this.

OK, where to start here.

1. It is not a strawman argument, even though you concocted a very simple one in response to my sarcasm. I guess I did not touch a nerve, I must have severed one Your logic is that DEN is so flawed from a personnel position that last years 8-8 record was simply an aberration even with the QB that must not be mentioned!

2. I am not even going to attempt to respond to your second part of your post. It's absurd, and has nothing to do with playing football. I too could set up an unwinnable argument for you, but that's not how life is in reality. I always show both sides and concede what is wrong because I do not get caught up in looking tough or having to be right.

3. Let's talk football:

A. Every team in the NFL has a playoff caliber element to it. To blindly ascribe teams actual ability is ridiculous. DEN was not an especially individually talented team last year, but they played much better than the sum of their parts, especially on defense. That is why team sports are so damn unpredictable. Teams play better or worse than the sum of their parts every week. The best ones simply out play the team across from them more often than not. So, please stop with the drama over talent. Talent means NOTHING without execution on game day. Something DEN proved mightily they COULD do last year.

I seriously do not think the most talented team won the SB last year. Just the best TEAM playing together at the right time. Much like GB last year. Both the past SB winners were barely Playoff participants.

B. INDY was not very talented in the Payton Manning era. And, it more than showed last year without him. What they were was a systems team, which I have already explained. Their OL has been extremely poor and only decent at protecting inside out. They were bottom 2 in run blocking, pass protection, and missed assignments. They are horrific versus what DEN already has with injured and young guys. Add in a QB who gets rid of the ball on time, rarely gets sacked, and takes you out of bad plays pre-snap and they instantly look a lot better and probably perform much better without any improvement themselves. What happens when they get healthy and get another year under their belt as well? I think they will do tremendously better because they will not have to protect as long and can have the presnap advantage instead of disadvantage they had with last years limited scheme.

C. INDY's defense was built to play with a lead and failed miserably when they had to play standard defense. DEN, not only played well when they were straight up with teams, they excelled down the stretch of close games. Imagine what they could do with a 2 score lead? DEN's defense has a lot more bite into them and having an offense that would be close to leading the league in average drive and Points per drive would only make them stronger. Also, not leading the league in 3 and outs and average FP wouldn't hurt them either.

When INDY went to the SB 3 years ago, the defense stepped up for Manning that year. They won 4 games when Manning did not put up 24 points like they were designed to do. It was only When their defensive stars got Hurt in the second half of the SB that they failed. Peyton was undefeated and in the SB with half a defense behind him. That TEAM played much better than their natural talent.

That is my argument, plain and simple. Yes, DEN needs more talented players at key spots. All teams do. However, the good and great teams find ways to win anyway. That was DEN last year. I think they will be better with Manning right off the bat and I think they need to find some Vet FA's to come on board and play like Bunkley did for them last year. There are still plenty of those guys out there and I hope they are not done.

Finally, There is an old Maxim in Consulting. "Never forget the NOW, in order to take advantage of the future. The future is never gauranteed. Only the Present."
This is better than pretty much anything I could write.

I really don't think we will win the SB this year, I think if it happens it is in '13 and '14.
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:11 PM   #162
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Fortunately, bringing in a guy like Manning is only going to help, as far as building a team ethos of professionalism, focus and effort. I think Champ and Dawkins bring that to the D already, and we saw that last year. It will be very interesting to see how this young Oline responds to Manning, especially. We're going from a young captain back there who was pretty wild and daring, to an old salt who can handle the ship in any weather (just to beat that metaphor to death).
So it's Captain Queeg vs. Fletcher Christian? Or is it King Agamemnon vs. Achilles?

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Old 03-27-2012, 02:29 PM   #163
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So it's Captain Queeg vs. Fletcher Christian? Or is it King Agamemnon vs. Achilles?
More like Wyatt Earp to Billy the Kid.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:27 AM   #164
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1. It's not like Manning is working with completely new skill players. Tamme knows the Manning offense and will be there in the offseason/camp to work with Dreessen and the others.

2. Stokley was already involved in recruiting Manning to Denver and he's already working out with him. No doubt he's going to be working with Decker/DT to get them up to speed as well and will be brought into camp (what else is he going to do this offseason?).

3. And then there's Jack Del Rio who has had success against Manning in the past and played against him TWICE a year for a decade. He's going to be crucial in exploiting/highlighting every weakeness/deficiency in our WRs/TEs and providing them with a defensive perspective on how they'll be defended.

The only genuine area of concern is the interior in Walton/Beadles and I'm not going to venture how they'll pan out. I remain skeptical but we'll know more once OTAs start off. If someone like Walton is STILL struggling then they can always bring in an experienced safety net in Dan Koppen.

Ultimately, yes, it comes down to execution and you get that by individual players working hard in their preparation. We have a coaching staff that got the entire offense to buy into that approach even while completey changing around the offense midseason with Tebow with the only malcontent in Lloyd being shipped out immediately.

If those same guys can go all out for someone like Tebow who was learning and making mistakes then they'll go the extra distance for a Hall of Fame QB that can get them closer to that championship game.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:32 AM   #165
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I worry about Manning just being as good as he used to be. Some say he lost velocity that last yr he played. Still went off for 4700 but there were whispers his ball not as good. Here is to hoping he will be worth all this!
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Old 03-28-2012, 05:43 AM   #166
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The only genuine area of concern is the interior in Walton/Beadles and I'm not going to venture how they'll pan out. I remain skeptical but we'll know more once OTAs start off.
Is it naive of me to hope that they benefit from the strength and conditioning program, as well as the coaching, that they probably didn't get much of prior to last season?
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Old 03-28-2012, 05:51 AM   #167
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I worry about Manning just being as good as he used to be. Some say he lost velocity that last yr he played. Still went off for 4700 but there were whispers his ball not as good. Here is to hoping he will be worth all this!
The current article from NFL.com suggests that the zip he lost in 2010 was due to his deteriorated pinched nerve, which is exactly why he had the surgery.
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:01 AM   #168
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Is it naive of me to hope that they benefit from the strength and conditioning program, as well as the coaching, that they probably didn't get much of prior to last season?
Strength and conditioning is only part of it.

Beadles doesn't play with proper leverage and technique.
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:53 AM   #169
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The current article from NFL.com suggests that the zip he lost in 2010 was due to his deteriorated pinched nerve, which is exactly why he had the surgery.
Let's hope it works!
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:15 PM   #170
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Part 6 posted today (the seven-step passing game)


http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...offense-part-6
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:21 PM   #171
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Is it naive of me to hope that they benefit from the strength and conditioning program, as well as the coaching, that they probably didn't get much of prior to last season?
You, of course, realize that you have argued against this exact logic for the last 9 months.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:23 PM   #172
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You, of course, realize that you have argued against this exact logic for the last 9 months.
Peyton makes all things new.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:28 PM   #173
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You, of course, realize that you have argued against this exact logic for the last 9 months.
I'm going to assume you're referring to Tebow since I've never argued against this regarding our offensive line which is what is being talked about here. And if I assume correctly there is really no comparison between a QB and an offensive lineman. So no, I have not argued against "this exact logic" for the last 9 months. In fact, again assuming you're talking about Tebow, I never argued that he can't get better. I have, however, argued that he'll probably never be good enough.

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Old 04-17-2012, 12:37 PM   #174
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Strength and conditioning is only part of it.

Beadles doesn't play with proper leverage and technique.
Because he's never had a significant amount of good coaching as a LG.

He played guard one year in college then played tackle the next three. His first year in the league he was being coached by someone out of their depth (who is now back in his comfort zone as a TE coach) while being shuffled about as the injury replacement swing man at bout OT and OG. Last season he got a shortened off-season to work with a new OL coach.

Same for Walton really, though at least Walton hasn't had his position changed multiple times.

Both of these guys have potential for big steps forward with a full off-season of working with Magazu. So does Franklin. Clady could take a big step forward simply by having his first off-season in two years of real strength and conditioning.

Add that Manning will make their lives easier with his reads at the line and will audible into schemes that will limit the amount of time they need to protect and you have a recipe for significant improvement.

DT and Decker also could break out big with Manning. Both have the complete tool box of WR skills with the only possible exception being Decker's lack of elite deep speed and it's not like he's slow. Both appear to be intelligent young men, and if I recall both did well on the wonderlic coming out of college so there is some (slight) corroboration to that. Given enough time to work with Manning they both can likely digest the intricacies of Manning's offense from a WR standpoint. Both will be going into year three as well, a breakout period in most WRs careers.

The big key to me for this offense to be truly elite is an all purpose RB to round out Manning's available options. McGahee is a between the tackles hammer, he doesn't offer home run potential and he doesn't catch the ball well. Moreno is a questionable runner between the tackles but does the secondary things (pass pro, run routes, catch the ball) well. If we could combine them we'd have one complete back. Instead we have none.

That is why, to me, there are two backs in this draft we need to key in on. Doug Martin and Robert Turbin. We need one of the two. Martin is the safer bet but both have a Matt Forte type ceiling and would give Manning an awesome weapon to work with and take the pressure off in short yardage situations.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:01 PM   #175
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Part 6 posted today (the seven-step passing game)


http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...offense-part-6
I don't want a lot of 7 step drops. I like Franklin as a road grader, but peyton has a bad neck.
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