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Old 03-26-2012, 07:51 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by 55CrushEm View Post
The ultimate goal MUST be to win at least one Superbowl with this guy....or else it WILL be a failure.
That's every team's ultimate goal every single year. And I suppose years after the fact, this is how seasons are judged.

But as a fan, do people really think there's much difference between the fans of the Superbowl winning team and the Superbowl losing team? I always think back to the Pats/Giants Superbowl from 07. Giants win in the final seconds.

Did Giants fans have a better season than the Pats fans? I don't think so. Pats fans saw their team win every game. And they were in the entire Superbowl, only losing right at the very end. It was an awesome season.

What extras do the Giants fans get? I suppose the evening of the Superbowl that partied some more. They get to tell people at work how awesome it is for a few days around the water cooler. But the truth is, it is fleeting. A week after the Superbowl, it's over. Football is over.

So I suppose years from now, Broncos pundits will look back at the Manning era and judge it by the rings it produced. But as a fan, it's time to enjoy it right now, and let history write its own story.

Manning has 1 Superbowl ring. I suppose that means he has 13 failed seasons. But I have watched every one of those seasons, and none of them ever felt like a failure during the season to me. (well, maybe 2 of them did!)
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:56 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by jerseyguy4 View Post
That's every team's ultimate goal every single year. And I suppose years after the fact, this is how seasons are judged.

But as a fan, do people really think there's much difference between the fans of the Superbowl winning team and the Superbowl losing team? I always think back to the Pats/Giants Superbowl from 07. Giants win in the final seconds.

Did Giants fans have a better season than the Pats fans? I don't think so. Pats fans saw their team win every game. And they were in the entire Superbowl, only losing right at the very end. It was an awesome season.

What extras do the Giants fans get? I suppose the evening of the Superbowl that partied some more. They get to tell people at work how awesome it is for a few days around the water cooler. But the truth is, it is fleeting. A week after the Superbowl, it's over. Football is over.

So I suppose years from now, Broncos pundits will look back at the Manning era and judge it by the rings it produced. But as a fan, it's time to enjoy it right now, and let history write its own story.

Manning has 1 Superbowl ring. I suppose that means he has 13 failed seasons. But I have watched every one of those seasons, and none of them ever felt like a failure during the season to me. (well, maybe 2 of them did!)
I hear everything you're saying. But the point is we were/are one of the youngest teams in the NFL....and we were ALREADY A PLAYOFF TEAM. So to go out and get Manning, who yes, instantly makes our offense FAR FAR better......

....it still has to pay off in a Superbowl.....precisely BECAUSE we were ALREADY on the up-and-up, young, playoff team, etc.....

Again, if you think that if 5 years go by WITHOUT a Lombardi.....that signing Manning will be viewed as "successful".....I simply disagree. I believe this move MUST payoff in a championship.

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Old 03-26-2012, 08:00 AM   #128
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I was here hoping for the second installment. I'm interested in the take on how both Manning and the recievers read the defenses, because I'm betting that there are post-huddle reads on what the routes branch out as.

Like this, but I thought the first installment on IAOFM was nicely done

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/20...ay-levels.html
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:03 AM   #129
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I hear everything you're saying. But the point is we were/are one of the youngest teams in the NFL....and we were ALREADY A PLAYOFF TEAM. So to go out and get Manning, who yes, instantly makes our offense FAR FAR better......

....it still has to pay off in a Superbowl.....precisely BECAUSE we were ALREADY on the up-and-up, young, playoff team, etc.....

Again, if you think if 5 years go by WITHOUT a Lombardi.....that signing Manning will be viewed as "successful".....I simply disagree. I believe this move MUST payoff in a championship.
I think winning the AFC will be enough. Manning and Bowlen (and EFX) want to win it, but for us fans .... we didn't beat Pitt, and the zebras pretty much gave that one to the AFC.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:03 AM   #130
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Nice find Bendog
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:01 PM   #131
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yours is the classic response i'd expect on the OM. setup a strawman and refute it. ignore the actual post.

let's try again. forget Tebow for a moment.

was the 2010 team a playoff caliber team?
was the 2011 team a playoff caliber team with Orton?

if you answered "yes" to either of those questions, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

is the 2012 team essentially the same team that Orton played with, only with Manning in his place?

if you answered "no" to this question, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

if you get to this point, then please explain to me how Manning and Manning alone suddenly elevates a really bad team (4-12 and then 1-4) all the way to SB contender status. if your answer is "everybody will play better, because you know, it's Peyton Manning and he's AWESOME and he releases the ball in 200 microseconds", then again, this conversation is over and you're a dumbass.

if you think you can explain how Manning by himself makes an OL that struggled with pass blocking last year (both with and without Tebow) and with young, inexperienced receivers (of which one has left for Sandy Eggo) that have never worked with Manning before, then please do.

also, how do we fill the holes on the defense? through the draft? we have deficiencies at DT (2 of them) and LB (1 or 2 of them depending how you feel about DJ Williams) and CB.

somehow, this FO needs to fill 3 or 4 holes this year with guys who we can rely on for the next 2-3 years. that's assuming we won't be competing for a SB in 2012. then next year, they have to do the same... fill 3 or 4 more holes so that come 2013, we are really a SB contender.

can you show me any offseason where we drafted 3 or 4 guys who became solid, established starters in their 1st or 2nd seasons in the league?
Wow! Guy takes a day off since the draft is slowing for a bit and i come back to this.

OK, where to start here.

1. It is not a strawman argument, even though you concocted a very simple one in response to my sarcasm. I guess I did not touch a nerve, I must have severed one Your logic is that DEN is so flawed from a personnel position that last years 8-8 record was simply an aberration even with the QB that must not be mentioned!

2. I am not even going to attempt to respond to your second part of your post. It's absurd, and has nothing to do with playing football. I too could set up an unwinnable argument for you, but that's not how life is in reality. I always show both sides and concede what is wrong because I do not get caught up in looking tough or having to be right.

3. Let's talk football:

A. Every team in the NFL has a playoff caliber element to it. To blindly ascribe teams actual ability is ridiculous. DEN was not an especially individually talented team last year, but they played much better than the sum of their parts, especially on defense. That is why team sports are so damn unpredictable. Teams play better or worse than the sum of their parts every week. The best ones simply out play the team across from them more often than not. So, please stop with the drama over talent. Talent means NOTHING without execution on game day. Something DEN proved mightily they COULD do last year.

I seriously do not think the most talented team won the SB last year. Just the best TEAM playing together at the right time. Much like GB last year. Both the past SB winners were barely Playoff participants.

B. INDY was not very talented in the Payton Manning era. And, it more than showed last year without him. What they were was a systems team, which I have already explained. Their OL has been extremely poor and only decent at protecting inside out. They were bottom 2 in run blocking, pass protection, and missed assignments. They are horrific versus what DEN already has with injured and young guys. Add in a QB who gets rid of the ball on time, rarely gets sacked, and takes you out of bad plays pre-snap and they instantly look a lot better and probably perform much better without any improvement themselves. What happens when they get healthy and get another year under their belt as well? I think they will do tremendously better because they will not have to protect as long and can have the presnap advantage instead of disadvantage they had with last years limited scheme.

C. INDY's defense was built to play with a lead and failed miserably when they had to play standard defense. DEN, not only played well when they were straight up with teams, they excelled down the stretch of close games. Imagine what they could do with a 2 score lead? DEN's defense has a lot more bite into them and having an offense that would be close to leading the league in average drive and Points per drive would only make them stronger. Also, not leading the league in 3 and outs and average FP wouldn't hurt them either.

When INDY went to the SB 3 years ago, the defense stepped up for Manning that year. They won 4 games when Manning did not put up 24 points like they were designed to do. It was only When their defensive stars got Hurt in the second half of the SB that they failed. Peyton was undefeated and in the SB with half a defense behind him. That TEAM played much better than their natural talent.

That is my argument, plain and simple. Yes, DEN needs more talented players at key spots. All teams do. However, the good and great teams find ways to win anyway. That was DEN last year. I think they will be better with Manning right off the bat and I think they need to find some Vet FA's to come on board and play like Bunkley did for them last year. There are still plenty of those guys out there and I hope they are not done.

Finally, There is an old Maxim in Consulting. "Never forget the NOW, in order to take advantage of the future. The future is never gauranteed. Only the Present."
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:10 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Mediator12 View Post
Wow! Guy takes a day off since the draft is slowing for a bit and i come back to this.

OK, where to start here.

1. It is not a strawman argument, even though you concocted a very simple one in response to my sarcasm. I guess I did not touch a nerve, I must have severed one Your logic is that DEN is so flawed from a personnel position that last years 8-8 record was simply an aberration even with the QB that must not be mentioned!

2. I am not even going to attempt to respond to your second part of your post. It's absurd, and has nothing to do with playing football. I too could set up an unwinnable argument for you, but that's not how life is in reality. I always show both sides and concede what is wrong because I do not get caught up in looking tough or having to be right.

3. Let's talk football:

A. Every team in the NFL has a playoff caliber element to it. To blindly ascribe teams actual ability is ridiculous. DEN was not an especially individually talented team last year, but they played much better than the sum of their parts, especially on defense. That is why team sports are so damn unpredictable. Teams play better or worse than the sum of their parts every week. The best ones simply out play the team across from them more often than not. So, please stop with the drama over talent. Talent means NOTHING without execution on game day. Something DEN proved mightily they COULD do last year.

I seriously do not think the most talented team won the SB last year. Just the best TEAM playing together at the right time. Much like GB last year. Both the past SB winners were barely Playoff participants.

B. INDY was not very talented in the Payton Manning era. And, it more than showed last year without him. What they were was a systems team, which I have already explained. Their OL has been extremely poor and only decent at protecting inside out. They were bottom 2 in run blocking, pass protection, and missed assignments. They are horrific versus what DEN already has with injured and young guys. Add in a QB who gets rid of the ball on time, rarely gets sacked, and takes you out of bad plays pre-snap and they instantly look a lot better and probably perform much better without any improvement themselves. What happens when they get healthy and get another year under their belt as well? I think they will do tremendously better because they will not have to protect as long and can have the presnap advantage instead of disadvantage they had with last years limited scheme.

C. INDY's defense was built to play with a lead and failed miserably when they had to play standard defense. DEN, not only played well when they were straight up with teams, they excelled down the stretch of close games. Imagine what they could do with a 2 score lead? DEN's defense has a lot more bite into them and having an offense that would be close to leading the league in average drive and Points per drive would only make them stronger. Also, not leading the league in 3 and outs and average FP wouldn't hurt them either.

When INDY went to the SB 3 years ago, the defense stepped up for Manning that year. They won 4 games when Manning did not put up 24 points like they were designed to do. It was only When their defensive stars got Hurt in the second half of the SB that they failed. Peyton was undefeated and in the SB with half a defense behind him. That TEAM played much better than their natural talent.

That is my argument, plain and simple. Yes, DEN needs more talented players at key spots. All teams do. However, the good and great teams find ways to win anyway. That was DEN last year. I think they will be better with Manning right off the bat and I think they need to find some Vet FA's to come on board and play like Bunkley did for them last year. There are still plenty of those guys out there and I hope they are not done.

Finally, There is an old Maxim in Consulting. "Never forget the NOW, in order to take advantage of the future. The future is never gauranteed. Only the Present."
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:36 PM   #133
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Getting a solid DT into the mix with that #25 pick will work wonders as well. Get a guy like Cox who I'm betting can play the 3 technique right out of the gate (I'm guessing we're going to a rush heavy defense). Play with the lead, get the TOs, and beat up the QB. Simple formula.
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:39 PM   #134
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Wow! Guy takes a day off since the draft is slowing for a bit and i come back to this.

OK, where to start here.

1. It is not a strawman argument, even though you concocted a very simple one in response to my sarcasm. I guess I did not touch a nerve, I must have severed one Your logic is that DEN is so flawed from a personnel position that last years 8-8 record was simply an aberration even with the QB that must not be mentioned!

2. I am not even going to attempt to respond to your second part of your post. It's absurd, and has nothing to do with playing football. I too could set up an unwinnable argument for you, but that's not how life is in reality. I always show both sides and concede what is wrong because I do not get caught up in looking tough or having to be right.

3. Let's talk football:

A. Every team in the NFL has a playoff caliber element to it. To blindly ascribe teams actual ability is ridiculous. DEN was not an especially individually talented team last year, but they played much better than the sum of their parts, especially on defense. That is why team sports are so damn unpredictable. Teams play better or worse than the sum of their parts every week. The best ones simply out play the team across from them more often than not. So, please stop with the drama over talent. Talent means NOTHING without execution on game day. Something DEN proved mightily they COULD do last year.

I seriously do not think the most talented team won the SB last year. Just the best TEAM playing together at the right time. Much like GB last year. Both the past SB winners were barely Playoff participants.

B. INDY was not very talented in the Payton Manning era. And, it more than showed last year without him. What they were was a systems team, which I have already explained. Their OL has been extremely poor and only decent at protecting inside out. They were bottom 2 in run blocking, pass protection, and missed assignments. They are horrific versus what DEN already has with injured and young guys. Add in a QB who gets rid of the ball on time, rarely gets sacked, and takes you out of bad plays pre-snap and they instantly look a lot better and probably perform much better without any improvement themselves. What happens when they get healthy and get another year under their belt as well? I think they will do tremendously better because they will not have to protect as long and can have the presnap advantage instead of disadvantage they had with last years limited scheme.

C. INDY's defense was built to play with a lead and failed miserably when they had to play standard defense. DEN, not only played well when they were straight up with teams, they excelled down the stretch of close games. Imagine what they could do with a 2 score lead? DEN's defense has a lot more bite into them and having an offense that would be close to leading the league in average drive and Points per drive would only make them stronger. Also, not leading the league in 3 and outs and average FP wouldn't hurt them either.

When INDY went to the SB 3 years ago, the defense stepped up for Manning that year. They won 4 games when Manning did not put up 24 points like they were designed to do. It was only When their defensive stars got Hurt in the second half of the SB that they failed. Peyton was undefeated and in the SB with half a defense behind him. That TEAM played much better than their natural talent.

That is my argument, plain and simple. Yes, DEN needs more talented players at key spots. All teams do. However, the good and great teams find ways to win anyway. That was DEN last year. I think they will be better with Manning right off the bat and I think they need to find some Vet FA's to come on board and play like Bunkley did for them last year. There are still plenty of those guys out there and I hope they are not done.

Finally, There is an old Maxim in Consulting. "Never forget the NOW, in order to take advantage of the future. The future is never gauranteed. Only the Present."
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:43 PM   #135
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Getting a solid DT into the mix with that #25 pick will work wonders as well. Get a guy like Cox who I'm betting can play the 3 technique right out of the gate (I'm guessing we're going to a rush heavy defense). Play with the lead, get the TOs, and beat up the QB. Simple formula.
DT's almost always suck their first season or two. Drafting a DT does not fix our defense for this season. Not even remotely.
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:59 PM   #136
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DT's almost always suck their first season or two. Drafting a DT does not fix our defense for this season. Not even remotely.
You've got to be the most negative person on this board. Sure, even a good DT out of college is going to have a growth curve to become a complete player, but that doesn't mean he can't come in and make an impact. Suck? Give the doom and gloom **** a rest.
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:11 PM   #137
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You've got to be the most negative person on this board. Sure, even a good DT out of college is going to have a growth curve to become a complete player, but that doesn't mean he can't come in and make an impact. Suck? Give the doom and gloom **** a rest.
In the last two seasons rookie DTs have had impacts on the DLine. This guy is a hating clown.
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:12 PM   #138
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Wow! Guy takes a day off since the draft is slowing for a bit and i come back to this.

OK, where to start here.

1. It is not a strawman argument, even though you concocted a very simple one in response to my sarcasm. I guess I did not touch a nerve, I must have severed one Your logic is that DEN is so flawed from a personnel position that last years 8-8 record was simply an aberration even with the QB that must not be mentioned!

2. I am not even going to attempt to respond to your second part of your post. It's absurd, and has nothing to do with playing football. I too could set up an unwinnable argument for you, but that's not how life is in reality. I always show both sides and concede what is wrong because I do not get caught up in looking tough or having to be right.

3. Let's talk football:

A. Every team in the NFL has a playoff caliber element to it. To blindly ascribe teams actual ability is ridiculous. DEN was not an especially individually talented team last year, but they played much better than the sum of their parts, especially on defense. That is why team sports are so damn unpredictable. Teams play better or worse than the sum of their parts every week. The best ones simply out play the team across from them more often than not. So, please stop with the drama over talent. Talent means NOTHING without execution on game day. Something DEN proved mightily they COULD do last year.

I seriously do not think the most talented team won the SB last year. Just the best TEAM playing together at the right time. Much like GB last year. Both the past SB winners were barely Playoff participants.

B. INDY was not very talented in the Payton Manning era. And, it more than showed last year without him. What they were was a systems team, which I have already explained. Their OL has been extremely poor and only decent at protecting inside out. They were bottom 2 in run blocking, pass protection, and missed assignments. They are horrific versus what DEN already has with injured and young guys. Add in a QB who gets rid of the ball on time, rarely gets sacked, and takes you out of bad plays pre-snap and they instantly look a lot better and probably perform much better without any improvement themselves. What happens when they get healthy and get another year under their belt as well? I think they will do tremendously better because they will not have to protect as long and can have the presnap advantage instead of disadvantage they had with last years limited scheme.

C. INDY's defense was built to play with a lead and failed miserably when they had to play standard defense. DEN, not only played well when they were straight up with teams, they excelled down the stretch of close games. Imagine what they could do with a 2 score lead? DEN's defense has a lot more bite into them and having an offense that would be close to leading the league in average drive and Points per drive would only make them stronger. Also, not leading the league in 3 and outs and average FP wouldn't hurt them either.

When INDY went to the SB 3 years ago, the defense stepped up for Manning that year. They won 4 games when Manning did not put up 24 points like they were designed to do. It was only When their defensive stars got Hurt in the second half of the SB that they failed. Peyton was undefeated and in the SB with half a defense behind him. That TEAM played much better than their natural talent.

That is my argument, plain and simple. Yes, DEN needs more talented players at key spots. All teams do. However, the good and great teams find ways to win anyway. That was DEN last year. I think they will be better with Manning right off the bat and I think they need to find some Vet FA's to come on board and play like Bunkley did for them last year. There are still plenty of those guys out there and I hope they are not done.

Finally, There is an old Maxim in Consulting. "Never forget the NOW, in order to take advantage of the future. The future is never gauranteed. Only the Present."
Owned you won't be hearing from Mr Galt I bet.
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:21 PM   #139
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Great post Med, as usual.
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Old 03-27-2012, 09:55 AM   #140
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Part 2.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...offense-part-2
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Old 03-27-2012, 11:41 AM   #141
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And the thread died? lol
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Old 03-27-2012, 11:59 AM   #142
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And the thread died? lol
I thought people would be interested in this football stuff. Apparently not. Maybe too simple for the hard core football junkies, and too complicated for everybody else? Most likely people just didn't bother to read it at all...
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:13 PM   #143
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I thought it interesting in that there didn't seem to be many post-snap reads that the qb and wr were required to by in synergy (God damn I love using that word in football!) with each other. Rather, it appeared to be pretty simple stuff, albiet Tebow will take years before he might even be able to do the simplist stuff. Take two tightends, and split em both into slots. If the OLB go with them, run the ball. If they don't, either should be open on an out route, with the recievers running the corners off by deep routes.

The slot guy has the nickle back by the shorthairs because he had no inside nor outside help. Stokely just reads with side the nickle cheats, and takes a route the other way, and Peyton lays it in.

If the corners and safeties show cover two, there's an open spot deep outside, and the running back is an easy throw in the slot. If it's man, the nickleback is in a tough spot.

Like the article said, it didn't even get to reading the safties, and that's actually the first place the qb looks when he comes to the line. It'll be interesting to see how this defelops. The link I put up yesterday about how a Manning offense has branches off routes also seemed to me to imply the basic concept was pretty simple. And that sucess was more about Peyton making consistent reads and putting the ball on the spot where the reciever knew it'd be. Consistency.
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:14 PM   #144
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Anyway, thanks for a football post.
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:37 PM   #145
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Good football post. I can't wait for the season. This would of failed miserably last year.
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:42 PM   #146
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Good football post. I can't wait for the season. This would of failed miserably last year.
With either one of those two. Though, before the whole Tim saga began, and before offenses figured out what Nolan was doing with such terrible talent, Orton did execute McIdiot's offense. And that's more me suggesting McIdiot may not be an offensive idiot than Orton being anything more than a bottom tier starting qb best suited to backup.
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:45 PM   #147
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I once read a story that a player asked a coach why the gaps and techniques are numbered that way, because it doesn't make a lot of sense and the coach answered, "'Cause Bear Bryant did it that way and nobody has had the guts to change it."
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:51 PM   #148
Hulamau
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Originally Posted by GreeleyGrizzley View Post
I can't wait to see Manning stand up there and do his thing, in orange! I still can't believe he's a Bronco. It's so great because I've seen him do it week in and week out, victimizing defenses across the league. Let's do it Manning!! I am pumped...

Alright, back to technical discussion of the offense...
Me too ... I just wish he was 31 when we got this gift! Still with a whole year off and never having taken a tremendous beating I think he can last at an elite level until he is 40 to 41 with solid protection.

Like a fine wine somethings get better with age ... up to a point.
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:54 PM   #149
TonyR
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I think he can last at an elite level until he is 40 to 41 with solid protection.
I agree. Keep those knees healthy and there's no reason he can't play another 3-5 years.
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:55 PM   #150
Cito Pelon
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I thought it interesting in that there didn't seem to be many post-snap reads that the qb and wr were required to by in synergy (God damn I love using that word in football!) with each other. Rather, it appeared to be pretty simple stuff, albiet Tebow will take years before he might even be able to do the simplist stuff. Take two tightends, and split em both into slots. If the OLB go with them, run the ball. If they don't, either should be open on an out route, with the recievers running the corners off by deep routes.

The slot guy has the nickle back by the shorthairs because he had no inside nor outside help. Stokely just reads with side the nickle cheats, and takes a route the other way, and Peyton lays it in.

If the corners and safeties show cover two, there's an open spot deep outside, and the running back is an easy throw in the slot. If it's man, the nickleback is in a tough spot.

Like the article said, it didn't even get to reading the safties, and that's actually the first place the qb looks when he comes to the line. It'll be interesting to see how this defelops. The link I put up yesterday about how a Manning offense has branches off routes also seemed to me to imply the basic concept was pretty simple. And that sucess was more about Peyton making consistent reads and putting the ball on the spot where the reciever knew it'd be. Consistency.
On paper, yeah. Execution of something that is theoretically so simple is another matter, right?
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