The Manning offense - Parts 1-6

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by WhoIsJohnGalt

this. this. this!

Other than the fact that subsequent posters destroyed the take you're so emphatically agreeing with, yes...

[Gort]

Originally Posted by TonyR

Other than the fact that subsequent posters destroyed the take you're so emphatically agreeing with, yes...

nobody destroyed this take.

the Broncos were 4-12 in 2010. they started 1-4 last year running an offense closer to Manning's style. even after the changes for Tebow, we only went 8-8. as you so often reminded us, that 8-8 could have easily been 4-12 or 5-11 if not for some remarkable luck (MIA, SD, NYJ, CHI). you don't put Manning into the same system with essentially the same players and automatically become a SB contender.

you need to get complementary players and you need to get them fast. you can't draft them and wait 2 or 3 years for them to mature into starters.

anyone who thinks otherwise is really suffering from wishful thinking.

to win with Manning, this FO needs to get moving and start getting the best possible players to fill our many holes as is possible. they need to do this now and they need to use our draft picks in 2012 and 2013 to facilitiate whatever trades we might need to pull off. we are not rebuilding through the draft anymore, we are reloading with FAs and veterans.

feel free to attempt to dispute these self-obvious facts.

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by WhoIsJohnGalt

nobody destroyed this take....

His point was that we don't have 5-6 years for our offense to evolve. The reality is that we don't need that long. Manning took over a terrible team and had them at 13-3 his second year.

[Gort]

Originally Posted by TonyR

His point was that we don't have 5-6 years for our offense to evolve. The reality is that we don't need that long. Manning took over a terrible team and had them at 13-3 his second year.

here's my point. we have 2 or 3 years with Manning. i know he signed a 5 year contract, but he'll turn 39 before his 4th season here. so let's just all agree that we should be shooting for a trip to the SB in 2013 or 2014. even if 2012 is a throwaway year to get everyone up to speed and Manning up to speed, we cannot fill the holes we have using the draft. we have one 1st, one 2nd, and one 3rd right now for 2012, IIRC. realistically, those are the only rounds that you can expect to find starters. but those guys will be rookies. even if we get rookies good enough to start, they will play like rookies. so we must get FAs and other veterans by trade because you can't rely on 3 picks in 2012 and 3 picks in 2013 to come in and be legit NFL starters in their first and second years. it doesn't work that way, even if your organization is really good at drafting, which we are not. so how do we become a SB contender in 2013 and 2014? by addressing our needs now with solid or elite veterans. remember, Champ is getting older too. he might not be a CB anymore in 2 or 3 years. and we might lose some of our good players to free agency as well.

the whole thing is a big jigsaw puzzle. Manning (if healthy) is just one part of that puzzle. this FO needs to start working on the rest of the puzzle ASAP.

[bendog]

Originally Posted by WhoIsJohnGalt

nobody destroyed this take.

the Broncos were 4-12 in 2010. they started 1-4 last year running an offense closer to Manning's style. even after the changes for Tebow, we only went 8-8. as you so often reminded us, that 8-8 could have easily been 4-12 or 5-11 if not for some remarkable luck (MIA, SD, NYJ, CHI). you don't put Manning into the same system with essentially the same players and automatically become a SB contender.

you need to get complementary players and you need to get them fast. you can't draft them and wait 2 or 3 years for them to mature into starters.

anyone who thinks otherwise is really suffering from wishful thinking.

to win with Manning, this FO needs to get moving and start getting the best possible players to fill our many holes as is possible. they need to do this now and they need to use our draft picks in 2012 and 2013 to facilitiate whatever trades we might need to pull off. we are not rebuilding through the draft anymore, we are reloading with FAs and veterans.

feel free to attempt to dispute these self-obvious facts.

it's absurd because Orton couldn't back 8 out of the box, which is why they couldn't run. Teams play 5 OUT of the box against manning.
Give it a ****ing rest.

[Gort]

Originally Posted by bendog

it's absurd because Orton couldn't back 8 out of the box, which is why they couldn't run. Teams play 5 OUT of the box against manning.
Give it a ****ing rest.

you people with your magic beans theory... it's just nonsense.

signing Manning doesn't do a damned thing to address the multiple problems on defense.

signing Manning requires us to run out of a 3-receiver set. who are these 3 receivers? DT? Decker? and who? DT and Decker are very young and inexperienced. are you going to draft another receiver? is he going to be productive as a rookie? is Manning going to have the timing worked out with these guys in just 1 camp? will our young receivers learn how to run the right routes or figure out what Manning is expecting simply by osmosis?

if Manning automatically guarantees us a SB trip this year, why did Indy give him up? and why didn't he take Indy to the SB every year?

for all your b****ing about Tebow fans being delusional, you are every bit as delusional if you think signing Manning and a handful of draft picks makes us a SB contender. unless Manning really does have a bag of magic beans. which he doesn't.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by bendog

it's absurd because Orton couldn't back 8 out of the box, which is why they couldn't run. Teams play 5 OUT of the box against manning.
Give it a ****ing rest.

this ........ WIJG is AN IDIOT

[Spider]

Originally Posted by TonyR

His point was that we don't have 5-6 years for our offense to evolve. The reality is that we don't need that long. Manning took over a terrible team and had them at 13-3 his second year.

Tebow love ... that is all it is ...... these guys are talking out of their asses

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by WhoIsJohnGalt

nobody destroyed this take.

the Broncos were 4-12 in 2010. they started 1-4 last year running an offense closer to Manning's style. even after the changes for Tebow, we only went 8-8. as you so often reminded us, that 8-8 could have easily been 4-12 or 5-11 if not for some remarkable luck (MIA, SD, NYJ, CHI). you don't put Manning into the same system with essentially the same players and automatically become a SB contender.

you need to get complementary players and you need to get them fast. you can't draft them and wait 2 or 3 years for them to mature into starters.

anyone who thinks otherwise is really suffering from wishful thinking.

to win with Manning, this FO needs to get moving and start getting the best possible players to fill our many holes as is possible. they need to do this now and they need to use our draft picks in 2012 and 2013 to facilitiate whatever trades we might need to pull off. we are not rebuilding through the draft anymore, we are reloading with FAs and veterans.

feel free to attempt to dispute these self-obvious facts.

Actually YOU destroyed it with your own logic. The team took a conventional balanced offense and switched MID-Season to a college run heavy protection offense with limited pass-option reads. They simplified the offense and prayed the defense could keep them in games. When they did, the new offense won games, while Implemented in the middle of the season with players based on a whole different model.

You are going backwards with your analogy and implying that players drafted for the balanced sytem actually won more games when they went to an entirely new system they were introduced to in a short term! The team now gets a HOF QB whose best talent is putting the team into the best play at the LOS and runs the simplest offense in the NFL and you are trying to tell me it will take years of development to succeed?

Based on what? They get to train all offseason, install everything, get minicamps, and have a QB who is already throwing to the WR's more than TEBOW had in the offseason. Really, explain to me how we are supposed to believe they have no shot going forward to pick this offense up and flourish. It's not a complicated system.

[jerseyguy4]

Originally Posted by WhoIsJohnGalt

you people with your magic beans theory... it's just nonsense.

signing Manning doesn't do a damned thing to address the multiple problems on defense.

Wrong. From 06-10, the Colts were in top 5 teams with the highest # of 1st downs (with a couple #1's). Denver expects this from Manning and they certainly didn't have it before. More 1st downs is more rest time for defense. More rest goes a long way to make players look (and play) better.

signing Manning requires us to run out of a 3-receiver set.

Based on the TE pick ups, I expect to see just as much (or more) of a 2 TE set

is Manning going to have the timing worked out with these guys in just 1 camp? will our young receivers learn how to run the right routes or figure out what Manning is expecting simply by osmosis?

Look what Manning did for Austin Collie and Anthony Gonzalez in their rookie years. I am sure everyone understands how important this is, and I half expect they are already throwing together.

for all your b****ing about Tebow fans being delusional, you are every bit as delusional if you think signing Manning and a handful of draft picks makes us a SB contender. unless Manning really does have a bag of magic beans. which he doesn't.

Sources have reported Manning does, in fact, have a bag of magic beans.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by WhoIsJohnGalt

you people with your magic beans theory... it's just nonsense.

signing Manning doesn't do a damned thing to address the multiple problems on defense.

signing Manning requires us to run out of a 3-receiver set. who are these 3 receivers? DT? Decker? and who? DT and Decker are very young and inexperienced. are you going to draft another receiver? is he going to be productive as a rookie? is Manning going to have the timing worked out with these guys in just 1 camp? will our young receivers learn how to run the right routes or figure out what Manning is expecting simply by osmosis?

if Manning automatically guarantees us a SB trip this year, why did Indy give him up? and why didn't he take Indy to the SB every year?

for all your b****ing about Tebow fans being delusional, you are every bit as delusional if you think signing Manning and a handful of draft picks makes us a SB contender. unless Manning really does have a bag of magic beans. which he doesn't.

You're wasting your breath. You can't reason with delusion.

[extralife]

you heard it here first guys. because Peyton Manning doesn't play defense he wasn't worth signing. nevermind that he is the best free agent in the history of the NFL, he simply isn't good enough for us.

I mean lets get real here: the people screaming about the Manning signing are Tebow nuthuggers. go to the Jets forums. please.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by extralife

whelp, I'm convinced

Yeah, yeah, whatever to you and Tony and Bombay and whomever. I'll get behind Plan A one of these days I guess. Here's my new favorite song :

Sad Songs (Say So Much)

Music: Elton John
Lyrics: Bernie Taupin

Guess there are times when we all need to share a little pain
And ironing out the rough spots
Is the hardest part when memories remain
And it's times like these when we all need to hear the radio
`Cause from the lips of some old singer
We can share the troubles we already know
Turn them on, turn them on
Turn on those sad songs
When all hope is gone
Why don't you tune in and turn them on
They reach into your room
Just feel their gentle touch
When all hope is gone
Sad songs say so much


Cry for me, Manning-boners.

[Gort]

Originally Posted by extralife

you heard it here first guys. because Peyton Manning doesn't play defense he wasn't worth signing. nevermind that he is the best free agent in the history of the NFL, he simply isn't good enough for us.

I mean lets get real here: the people screaming about the Manning signing are Tebow nuthuggers. go to the Jets forums. please.

and the people who think Manning alone will bring us a Lombardi every year for the next 5 years because he's just so awesome and that's all we needed to do are the same ones who hated Tebow irrationally and had to leave the site during the 7-game winning streak because it it enraged them to see Tebow and the Broncos have any sort of success on the field.

[Gort]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

Actually YOU destroyed it with your own logic. The team took a conventional balanced offense and switched MID-Season to a college run heavy protection offense with limited pass-option reads. They simplified the offense and prayed the defense could keep them in games. When they did, the new offense won games, while Implemented in the middle of the season with players based on a whole different model.

You are going backwards with your analogy and implying that players drafted for the balanced sytem actually won more games when they went to an entirely new system they were introduced to in a short term! The team now gets a HOF QB whose best talent is putting the team into the best play at the LOS and runs the simplest offense in the NFL and you are trying to tell me it will take years of development to succeed?

Based on what? They get to train all offseason, install everything, get minicamps, and have a QB who is already throwing to the WR's more than TEBOW had in the offseason. Really, explain to me how we are supposed to believe they have no shot going forward to pick this offense up and flourish. It's not a complicated system.

yours is the classic response i'd expect on the OM. setup a strawman and refute it. ignore the actual post.

let's try again. forget Tebow for a moment.

was the 2010 team a playoff caliber team?
was the 2011 team a playoff caliber team with Orton?

if you answered "yes" to either of those questions, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

is the 2012 team essentially the same team that Orton played with, only with Manning in his place?

if you answered "no" to this question, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

if you get to this point, then please explain to me how Manning and Manning alone suddenly elevates a really bad team (4-12 and then 1-4) all the way to SB contender status. if your answer is "everybody will play better, because you know, it's Peyton Manning and he's AWESOME and he releases the ball in 200 microseconds", then again, this conversation is over and you're a dumbass.

if you think you can explain how Manning by himself makes an OL that struggled with pass blocking last year (both with and without Tebow) and with young, inexperienced receivers (of which one has left for Sandy Eggo) that have never worked with Manning before, then please do.

also, how do we fill the holes on the defense? through the draft? we have deficiencies at DT (2 of them) and LB (1 or 2 of them depending how you feel about DJ Williams) and CB.

somehow, this FO needs to fill 3 or 4 holes this year with guys who we can rely on for the next 2-3 years. that's assuming we won't be competing for a SB in 2012. then next year, they have to do the same... fill 3 or 4 more holes so that come 2013, we are really a SB contender.

can you show me any offseason where we drafted 3 or 4 guys who became solid, established starters in their 1st or 2nd seasons in the league?

[extralife]

Originally Posted by WhoIsJohnGalt

and the people who think Manning alone will bring us a Lombardi every year for the next 5 years because he's just so awesome and that's all we needed to do are the same ones who hated Tebow irrationally and had to leave the site during the 7-game winning streak because it it enraged them to see Tebow and the Broncos have any sort of success on the field.

well I suppose if those were actual people on the forum instead of strawmen in your head you might have a point. though even then you probably wouldn't, because Tim Tebow doesn't play for the Broncos anymore. He plays for the Jets. Peyton Manning plays for us. I hear he's pretty good. You should look him up.

[Gort]

Originally Posted by extralife

well I suppose if those were actual people on the forum instead of strawmen in your head you might have a point. though even then you probably wouldn't, because Tim Tebow doesn't play for the Broncos anymore. He plays for the Jets. Peyton Manning plays for us. I hear he's pretty good. You should look him up.

you're the one who is acting as if all problems are solved. i know it makes you happy to have Manning and to be rid of Tebow. but it's only the first step if this is truly to become a SB contending team. can Manning win Lombardis with a dearth of talent around him? need i remind you that the Broncos record in recent years has been.

2011: 8-8
2010: 4-12
2009: 8-8
2008: 8-8
2007: 7-9
2006: 9-7

do those records indicate to you that we've been stockpiling talent and building a SB contending franchise? because they don't to me.

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by TonyR

Read the whole thing here: http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...offense-part-1

That is a great article. Anyone who did not read it should. I wish the Post would actually put something of this quality up.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

Actually YOU destroyed it with your own logic. The team took a conventional balanced offense and switched MID-Season to a college run heavy protection offense with limited pass-option reads. They simplified the offense and prayed the defense could keep them in games. When they did, the new offense won games, while Implemented in the middle of the season with players based on a whole different model.

You are going backwards with your analogy and implying that players drafted for the balanced sytem actually won more games when they went to an entirely new system they were introduced to in a short term! The team now gets a HOF QB whose best talent is putting the team into the best play at the LOS and runs the simplest offense in the NFL and you are trying to tell me it will take years of development to succeed?

Based on what? They get to train all offseason, install everything, get minicamps, and have a QB who is already throwing to the WR's more than TEBOW had in the offseason. Really, explain to me how we are supposed to believe they have no shot going forward to pick this offense up and flourish. It's not a complicated system.

Obviously, I'm not getting how this is the simplest offense in the NFL. How is it so simple?

Because there are no complicated playcalls into the huddle?
Because there is only one play called in, letting the huddle break fast, then Manning uses the remaining time on the play clock to adjust as he sees fit?
Because there are three plays called into the huddle, then Manning chooses one, then they break the huddle fast, then Manning uses the remaining time on the play clock to adjust as he sees fit?

I have to admit it worked in Indy to the tune of a lot of Div Titles and playoff appearances, didn't work all that great in the playoffs, they had a lot of low-scoring O performances.

You said Indy had the attitude "we'll outplay you, not outscheme you." Ok, that's fine, we'll see how it pans out. Maybe I'm being overly skeptical, but this isn't Indy. I'm a Teboner, so keep that in mind.

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by rbackfactory80

Chargers own Manning.


Yours Truly,

Elway stated that the Chargers beat the Colts all the time because if you wanna beat SD you need to run the ball and the COlts could not do that. He vowed Denver will be a good running team. So I think the Broncos will have a very good game plan for the Chuggars.

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by extralife

you heard it here first guys. because Peyton Manning doesn't play defense he wasn't worth signing. nevermind that he is the best free agent in the history of the NFL, he simply isn't good enough for us.

I mean lets get real here: the people screaming about the Manning signing are Tebow nuthuggers. go to the Jets forums. please.

2nd best FA, I think almost everyone would agree Reggie White was the greatest, especially because he was in his prime and brought a SB Championship to GB.

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by WhoIsJohnGalt

you're the one who is acting as if all problems are solved. i know it makes you happy to have Manning and to be rid of Tebow. but it's only the first step if this is truly to become a SB contending team. can Manning win Lombardis with a dearth of talent around him? need i remind you that the Broncos record in recent years has been.

2011: 8-8
2010: 4-12
2009: 8-8
2008: 8-8
2007: 7-9
2006: 9-7

do those records indicate to you that we've been stockpiling talent and building a SB contending franchise? because they don't to me.

The Denver team right now has much MUCH more talent than the Colts' team of 2010 that went 10-6. There is no reason to think even with the tough schedukle they have this year Denver can't go 10-6 themselves.

[Gort]

Originally Posted by Wobet Selur

2nd best FA, I think almost everyone would agree Reggie White was the greatest, especially because he was in his prime and brought a SB Championship to GB.

ruh roh!

you didn't say Manning was the greatest FA signing of all time.

you will regret saying anything once the Mannboners arrive to make you see the error of your ways.

[Punisher]

Originally Posted by bombay

Whatever happens, Tebow is gone, so it will be about football, not who may get their feelings hurt, whether the OC can invent a high school offense on the fly, etc.


What a relief.

this

[extralife]

Originally Posted by Wobet Selur

2nd best FA, I think almost everyone would agree Reggie White was the greatest, especially because he was in his prime and brought a SB Championship to GB.

Debatable, but QB is so much more important than DE that I'll go with Peyton. If you're going to add in what he did after signing with GB--which doesn't seem very fair to me, given that we can't see Manning's future--most people forget that White only had double digit sacks once with GB.