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Old 03-13-2012, 08:05 AM   #2401
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From the same people who keep saying "Look how the Colts fell apart when Peyton didn't play!!!"

It's pretty rich.
Great point
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:05 AM   #2402
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Who says that we can't still build through the draft if we sign Manning? The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. If we go out and sign a bunch of guys over 30 and trade away draft picks along with signing Manning, then you will have a point. But what if we sign productive but younger free agents (i.e. Ben Grubbs, Mike Tolbert, Pierre Garcon, just for a few examples of the younger, quality players available) and keep all of our draft picks? Assuming that the overall building plan will be abandoned if we sign Manning is not at all a certainity.
I know one thing that isn't a good start. Signing a bunch of guys on their last legs who eat up a quarter of your salary cap. Manning in the high-teens to low twenties, plus Wayne and Clark would be disastrous to this team long term.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:07 AM   #2403
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Tim's winning % last year is higher than Peyton's 2010, and he won a playoff game against the defending AFC Champs, whereas Peyton lost in the WC round. And that's each with an equally poor supporting cast judging by their records without them (And Orton's > Painter)
That's fine, but my point is that you can't judge the success or failure of signing Manning based strictly on what Tebow did last season. If he's traded, you would also have to consider how Tim played with his new team. If he played poorly, last season will be regarded as a fluke, and it could be safely assumed that we would have done worse with Tebow than whatever result we achieved with Manning.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:15 AM   #2404
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Who says that we can't still build through the draft if we sign Manning? The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. If we go out and sign a bunch of guys over 30 and trade away draft picks along with signing Manning, then you will have a point. But what if we sign productive but younger free agents (i.e. Ben Grubbs, Mike Tolbert, Pierre Garcon, just for a few examples of the younger, quality players available) and keep all of our draft picks? Assuming that the overall building plan will be abandoned if we sign Manning is not at all a certainity.
You forget that Elway is going to have to promise to do everything PM needs and wants to get to the superbowl. Either he is going to let Manning have a lot of say on draft choices and players, or he is going to renege on commitments he makes to get him to come here. Manning doesn't have time to wait as he is getting older every year. His realistic maximum is 3 years.

We will be drafting for immediate need, and getting FA for immediate need. If given that kind of deal, Manning will take a substantially lower salary to allow his selected team to use that money for the FA he wants.

Once you cross this bridge you are crossing the Rubicon. There will be no going back.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:18 AM   #2405
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...1-4 without him? ...And off the worst season in Broncos history?

Did you miss those games? Because it spanned like 2 years lol
The reason..................Orton
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:19 AM   #2406
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You forget that Elway is going to have to promise to do everything PM needs and wants to get to the superbowl. Either he is going to let Manning have a lot of say on draft choices and players, or he is going to renege on commitments he makes to get him to come here. Manning doesn't have time to wait as he is getting older every year. His realistic maximum is 3 years.

We will be drafting for immediate need, and getting FA for immediate need. If given that kind of deal, Manning will take a substantially lower salary to allow his selected team to use that money for the FA he wants.

Once you cross this bridge you are crossing the Rubicon. There will be no going back.
I don't see Peyton taking a significant salary hit for the good of any team. He could've done that and stayed a Colt. And he already had all these guys everyone else says need to follow Peyton to wherever he goes.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:20 AM   #2407
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The reason..................Orton
How many teams do you think would take Curtis Painter over Kyle Orton?
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:20 AM   #2408
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You forget that Elway is going to have to promise to do everything PM needs and wants to get to the superbowl. Either he is going to let Manning have a lot of say on draft choices and players, or he is going to renege on commitments he makes to get him to come here. Manning doesn't have time to wait as he is getting older every year. His realistic maximum is 3 years.

We will be drafting for immediate need, and getting FA for immediate need. If given that kind of deal, Manning will take a substantially lower salary to allow his selected team to use that money for the FA he wants.

Once you cross this bridge you are crossing the Rubicon. There will be no going back.
You are making a lot of assumptions that aren't necessarily true. I'm sure Elway promised Manning upgrades, but that does not mean Manning demanded specific players. Frankly, I'd be surprised if he did. That doesn't seem to be his style, and he can't control whether or not Wayne or his other Colts buddies sign with us. You can sign FAs both for immediate neeed AND the future if you target younger players.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:21 AM   #2409
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The reason..................Orton
I don't disagree at all. ...but he's a lot better than Painter and the rest of Indy's backups so what does that say about the other 21 players on the Broncos\Colts?
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:39 AM   #2410
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To clarify again, I'm happy with either results: manning (goat, in my eyes) or tebow (potential to change the game forever).

That being said, I'm not pretend the neck injury and subsequent surgeries and a YEARS worth of setbacks didn't happen.

I'm also not going to ignore the fact that his contract carries the weight of All-Pro CB Jonathan Joseph, All-Pro Guard Carl Nicks and should-be All-Pro NT Barry Cofield... COMBINED (and Peyton will likely cost more...)
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:40 AM   #2411
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To clarify again, I'm happy with either results: manning (goat, in my eyes) or tebow (potential to change the game forever).

That being said, I'm not pretend the neck injury and subsequent surgeries and a YEARS worth of setbacks didn't happen.

I'm also not going to ignore the fact that his contract carries the weight of All-Pro CB Jonathan Joseph, All-Pro Guard Carl Nicks and should-be All-Pro NT Barry Cofield... COMBINED (and Peyton will likely cost more...)
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:46 AM   #2412
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Just say NO to the Broncos Manning...please.

Signing Manning will be a mistake. After 14 years of football with a bad neck on a way better team than what the Broncos have Manning IS NOT going to be the same QB he was 5 or even 2 years ago.

Can he still play? Yes.

Is his primary reason for continuing to play related to $ís and ego and will he hit the jackpot lotto when he signs? Yes.

Do those 2 reasons trouble you if youíre a Broncos Fan? They do to me.

Will the astronomical price in dollars and cents be worth the gamble? No.

Will he improve a team like the Broncos chances of winning? Maybe.

Will the Broncos be a playoff team or a Super Bowl winning team with him at QB? Maybe the playoffs, but the Super Bowl, highly doubtful.

Will Manning end his career ugly if he goes to a rebuilding team like the Broncos? Odds are very good.

Isnít it smarter to hold onto the cap money theyíd spend on him and use it to look to fill all the other holes on the team with draft picks and good free agents at DB, DL, LB, RB, WR and maybe a TE? A resounding YES!!

The media hype and what I consider the ignorant short sightedness by fans who think this is what the Broncos MUST do are being set up for an epic failure. Itíll set the team back maybe 2 to five years because of the bankroll heíll demand.

I just think this is a horrible idea even in the short term because Manning while he still has same game left in him canít possibly at his age and with his chronic injuries carry an average or bad team to a Super Bowl win. It just wonít happen. He was a great QB but his best days are more than likely behind him and I see a horrible scenario in which the Broncos organization and worse yet the fans gets raped and robbed.

Favre was a far better athlete at his age and had a stronger arm than Manning does at this point in his career and look how Favre ended? He was on a far better team than Manning will go to also.

One more thing, this really has nothing to do with Tebow by the way but the long term future of the Broncos. While Iím not sure if heís capable of taking the team to the next level this is still a bad strategy anyway you look at it. If Tebow lays and egg this season I have no problem looking at other options in 2013. Iím results oriented, if he canít carry the water then itís onto a guy who can. I like Tebow the man but winning supersedes his personal magnetism and charm. The team should stick it out one more year with Tebow to see if he pans out and spend their money elsewhere this season.

Today Manningís supposed to make a decision about where he will go. If it does happen and he signs in Denver as always Iím a Broncos Fan first and last so Iíll root for him to succeed. Iíll root for him because heís on my team but I wonít be happy about it because I see disastrous results in the long term for my team.

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Old 03-13-2012, 08:46 AM   #2413
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You are making a lot of assumptions that aren't necessarily true. I'm sure Elway promised Manning upgrades, but that does not mean Manning demanded specific players. Frankly, I'd be surprised if he did. That doesn't seem to be his style, and he can't control whether or not Wayne or his other Colts buddies sign with us. You can sign FAs both for immediate neeed AND the future if you target younger players.
True...but I'm sure that they are offering Manning a lot of input and some say as to the players and positions that are brought in. Manning is VERY smart and will be an instant O-coordinator candidate the day he retires from playing. He will get multiple offers to coach.

Yes, he could have offered financial guarantees to Indy, or taken a cut in pay.
He probably did....maybe just not enough. But, Irsay and the Colts released him, because of that and the fact that retaining him is a SHORT TERM deal. And he probably wanted the #1 pick traded to bring in fresh talent and restock for a run at the bowl. They decided that the future was in Luck.

The point is, he will want players that can have almost immediate impact because of his timeline. If Denver gives him that much control or say he will do his best to use it and get to a bowl. And I would expect that he will cut a
break on his contract ( not 20 mill but in the 14-15 mill range) to accomplish it. If Denver reneges on that he will not renew that contract ( series of 1 year deals at HIS option to renew) and go elsewhere or retire.

Yes, I'm making assumptions. Because MANNING is in control. He can get what he wants, and the teams are the ones that are begging for his services.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:51 AM   #2414
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or tebow (potential to change the game forever).
Thanks for the laugh this morning.
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:07 AM   #2415
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...1-4 without him? ...And off the worst season in Broncos history?

Did you miss those games? Because it spanned like 2 years lol
Didn't Tim play as a rookie and weren't some of those losses "his?"

Tim also didn't beat a team with a winning record last year in the RS.

My point is, too much credit/blame goes to the QB. Two years ago the Denver defense didn't have Champ for most of the year, no Doom and no Von.

Wonder if they could have used those defenders?

And WM wasn't running for 1200 yards for Denver in 2010 either...

But heyÖ.that doesn't matterÖ.it was ALL Tebow.
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:09 AM   #2416
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The reason..................Orton
But the reason was the defense when you supported Orton. It only changed to Orton after Tebow took over.

How does that work, exactly?
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:13 AM   #2417
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From the same people who keep saying "Look how the Colts fell apart when Peyton didn't play!!!"

It's pretty rich.
Well the Texans D didn't fall apart without Williams. In fact they made the teams first post season without him playing. I mean for as good as Williams is has he ever beat Manning?
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:13 AM   #2418
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Didn't Tim play as a rookie and weren't some of those losses "his?"

Tim also didn't beat a team with a winning record last year in the RS.

My point is, too much credit/blame goes to the QB. Two years ago the Denver defense didn't have Champ for most of the year, no Doom and no Von.

Wonder if they could have used those defenders?

And WM wasn't running for 1200 yards for Denver in 2010 either...

But heyÖ.that doesn't matterÖ.it was ALL Tebow.

Are you reading from a script?

Orton had Doom, Von, Champ AND a healthy Dawkins the first month of the season. He went 1-4. Our running game was ranked in the bottom three with Orton as starter. If you think McGahee would have had a 1200 yard season anyway then really I do not know what to tell you.

But hey, I'm sure Orton would have led last minute drives against SD, Minnesota, Chicago, KC, Miami and the NYJ. He would have beat the Steelers too. Since Denver is such a machine on defense, right?

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Old 03-13-2012, 09:22 AM   #2419
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But hey, I'm sure Orton would have led last minute drives against SD, Minnesota, Chicago, KC, Miami and the NYJ. He would have beat the Steelers too. Since Denver is such a machine on defense, right?:
Absolutely. Cuz' everyone knows that's how KO rolled.
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:23 AM   #2420
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Originally Posted by Mile High Mojoe View Post
Just say NO to the Broncos Manning...please.

Signing Manning will be a mistake. After 14 years of football with a bad neck on a way better team than what the Broncos have Manning IS NOT going to be the same QB he was 5 or even 2 years ago.

Can he still play? Yes.

Is his primary reason for continuing to play related to $ís and ego and will he hit the jackpot lotto when he signs? Yes.

Do those 2 reasons trouble you if youíre a Broncos Fan? They do to me.

Will the astronomical price in dollars and cents be worth the gamble? No.

Will he improve a team like the Broncos chances of winning? Maybe.

Will the Broncos be a playoff team or a Super Bowl winning team with him at QB? Maybe the playoffs, but the Super Bowl, highly doubtful.

Will Manning end his career ugly if he goes to a rebuilding team like the Broncos? Odds are very good.

Isnít it smarter to hold onto the cap money theyíd spend on him and use it to look to fill all the other holes on the team with draft picks and good free agents at DB, DL, LB, RB, WR and maybe a TE? A resounding YES!!

The media hype and what I consider the ignorant short sightedness by fans who think this is what the Broncos MUST do are being set up for an epic failure. Itíll set the team back maybe 2 to five years because of the bankroll heíll demand.

I just think this is a horrible idea even in the short term because Manning while he still has same game left in him canít possibly at his age and with his chronic injuries carry an average or bad team to a Super Bowl win. It just wonít happen. He was a great QB but his best days are more than likely behind him and I see a horrible scenario in which the Broncos organization and worse yet the fans gets raped and robbed.

Favre was a far better athlete at his age and had a stronger arm than Manning does at this point in his career and look how Favre ended? He was on a far better team than Manning will go to also.

One more thing, this really has nothing to do with Tebow by the way but the long term future of the Broncos. While Iím not sure if heís capable of taking the team to the next level this is still a bad strategy anyway you look at it. If Tebow lays and egg this season I have no problem looking at other options in 2013. Iím results oriented, if he canít carry the water then itís onto a guy who can. I like Tebow the man but winning supersedes his personal magnetism and charm. The team should stick it out one more year with Tebow to see if he pans out and spend their money elsewhere this season.

Today Manningís supposed to make a decision about where he will go. If it does happen and he signs in Denver as always Iím a Broncos Fan first and last so Iíll root for him to succeed. Iíll root for him because heís on my team but I wonít be happy about it because I see disastrous results in the long term for my team.
Totally agree. We get one or two top FAs and look to improve all over and then see if Tebow can do it this year. If not, we draft a QB in 2013. Does Bowlen have Alzheimers or something? Why is Elway so desperate?
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:23 AM   #2421
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Well the Texans D didn't fall apart without Williams. In fact they made the teams first post season without him playing. I mean for as good as Williams is has he ever beat Manning?
Are you seriously comparing the game impact of a Defensive End to a QB?
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:25 AM   #2422
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Thanks for the laugh this morning.
Cute post but its true.

- He plays a very different style of QB
- the style has proven very effective

If he can improve in each area of his game like most young QBs do, he's certainly capable of chaning the way the game is played.
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:30 AM   #2423
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But the reason was the defense when you supported Orton. It only changed to Orton after Tebow took over.

How does that work, exactly?
Her let me clarify it for you I never liked Orton he sucks and yes the Defense did need improving and still does
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:32 AM   #2424
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Are you reading from a script?

Orton had Doom, Von, Champ AND a healthy Dawkins the first month of the season. He went 1-4. Our running game was ranked in the bottom three with Orton as starter. If you think McGahee would have had a 1200 yard season anyway then really I do not know what to tell you.

But hey, I'm sure Orton would have led last minute drives against SD, Minnesota, Chicago, KC, Miami and the NYJ. He would have beat the Steelers too. Since Denver is such a machine on defense, right?

Orton SUCKSÖ

Gotta move past it.
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:33 AM   #2425
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Are you seriously comparing the game impact of a Defensive End to a QB?
I'm all for bringing in the FA player bigger game impact for our money.
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