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Old 02-01-2012, 09:26 PM   #351
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Okay, yeah ... in that sense I suppose you have a point.

Tebow was better in that WE won more, but in any other way? Umm, errr ......
And what other way matters more than winning. Seriously you people are off the wall with this image of a QB crap.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:29 PM   #352
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Ugh.

Newton is the better passer. Passers win long term.

This year was fun. It probably won't happen again unless the passing improves significantly.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:30 PM   #353
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Sagarin has Denver's SOS as 10th and Carolina's as 28th, so you're right about that. But unfortunately your argument loses a little steam when you notice that Sagarin has Carolina ranked higher than Denver...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nfl11.htm
So you're saying that because Tebow won more games with a worse team against better opponents, Cam is better. That is brilliant. No really, you are a genius.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:31 PM   #354
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Ugh.

Newton is the better passer. Passers win long term.

This year was fun. It probably won't happen again unless the passing improves significantly.
Ah, yes, the classic move the goalposts argument. Nice one!
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:34 PM   #355
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Ah, yes, the classic move the goalposts argument. Nice one!
I'm not moving the goalposts anywhere. Passers win in this league. Newton is clearly the superior passer.

Again, this season was a lot of fun, but this is a league where quarterbacks have to be proficient throwing the football. Winning in the manner Denver did this season is not sustainable, no matter what "winning" argument you throw at it.

Vince Young was categorized a "winner" too. So was Kyle Orton.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:36 PM   #356
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[indent]1: Tebow's quarterbacking skills are sub-par by NFL standards
2: Tebow's intangibles are through the roof
Here's the crux of the issue. People are naive if they think that Intangibles are not a skill.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:38 PM   #357
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I'm not moving the goalposts anywhere. Passers win in this league. Newton is clearly the superior passer.
You're absolutely moving the goalposts.
Tebow had more success this year leading his team to wins. You're moving the goalposts to next year so that this year doesn't really count.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:44 PM   #358
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You're absolutely moving the goalposts.
Tebow had more success this year leading his team to wins. You're moving the goalposts to next year so that this year doesn't really count.
First, for me to "move the goalposts" I'd have to have been making a specific argument earlier. I wasn't, so that's not really a valid argument.

That said, I saw this discussion as a long term projection based on what we saw this last year and overall rather than a knee-jerk reaction to this year.

If I were evaluating Tebow's season as a passer it would be a D- or an F. Newton would receive a C+ or a B. He's a clearly superior passer, and that, ultimately is more important in the long run.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:57 PM   #359
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First, for me to "move the goalposts" I'd have to have been making a specific argument earlier. I wasn't, so that's not really a valid argument.

That said, I saw this discussion as a long term projection based on what we saw this last year and overall rather than a knee-jerk reaction to this year.

If I were evaluating Tebow's season as a passer it would be a D- or an F. Newton would receive a C+ or a B. He's a clearly superior passer, and that, ultimately is more important in the long run.
You're moving the argument into the future because the present doesn't fit your take. It's the same thing.

Leaf was clearly a superior passer to a lot of guys. How does the notion of douche nozzles fit into your "long term" theory?
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:02 PM   #360
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You're moving the argument into the future because the present doesn't fit your take. It's the same thing.

Leaf was clearly a superior passer to a lot of guys. How does the notion of douche nozzles fit into your "long term" theory?
I'm "moving into the future" because there's no other place to go. Even if we talk about last season, Newton was a better passer, but Tebow won a few more games.

I don't even know what your second paragraph means other than you're grasping at straws....

What does Leaf have to do with either quarterback?
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:16 PM   #361
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Just to show you how ridiculous this is Ryan Leaf didn't throw for more than 2,000 in one season and in three failed seasons threw for less than 4,000 total.

Newton threw for 4,000 in his first season.

Obviously, that comparison is absurd.
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:54 AM   #362
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Ugh.

Newton is the better passer. Passers win long term.

This year was fun. It probably won't happen again unless the passing improves significantly.
Better passer = more interceptions.
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Old 02-02-2012, 04:04 AM   #363
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Ugh.

Newton is the better passer. Passers win long term.

This year was fun. It probably won't happen again unless the passing improves significantly.
They always hedge their bets, setting up their excuse in advance in case Tebow trolls them.

"What? I said if he improved he would be better!"
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Old 02-02-2012, 04:29 AM   #364
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They always hedge their bets, setting up their excuse in advance in case Tebow trolls them.

"What? I said if he improved he would be better!"
I have to admit, it made me just a little bit happier each time we won while Tebow threw for less than 50% (MIA, OAK, KC, NYJ, PIT) because I knew it was driving a certain segment of Bronco fans crazy.
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:10 AM   #365
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Ugh.

Newton is the better passer. Passers win long term.

This year was fun. It probably won't happen again unless the passing improves significantly.
You mean guys like Elway are really worse than Newton? Don't worry, everyone here knows you are an idiot.
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:25 AM   #366
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So they basically say they are wrong? Nice find...
No, they don't say that even a little bit. This is clearly too complicated for you. Sagarin is an unbiased, completely objective computer/mathematical model. It takes several factors into account, one of them being SOS. But SOS isn't the only factor. Margin of victory, for example, is also included.

So to clarify (i.e. "dumb down") for you, jhns, just because Denver's SOS is higher, and W/L is better, the model won't necessarily rank Denver higher. I know this is hard for you to wrap your little head around.
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:26 AM   #367
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No, they don't say that even a little bit. This is clearly too complicated for you. Sagarin is an unbiased, completely objective computer/mathematical model. It takes several factors into account, one of them being SOS. But SOS isn't the only factor. Margin of victory, for example, is also included.

So to clarify (i.e. "dumb down") for you, jhns, just because Denver's SOS is higher, and W/L is better, the model won't necessarily rank Denver higher. I know this is hard for you to wrap your little head around.
Yeah! Winning more games with a harder schedule is clear proof that you are worse!

So intelligent...
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:30 AM   #368
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No, they don't say that even a little bit. This is clearly too complicated for you. Sagarin is an unbiased, completely objective computer/mathematical model. It takes several factors into account, one of them being SOS. But SOS isn't the only factor. Margin of victory, for example, is also included.

So to clarify (i.e. "dumb down") for you, jhns, just because Denver's SOS is higher, and W/L is better, the model won't necessarily rank Denver higher. I know this is hard for you to wrap your little head around.
So . . . . . Denver won more games than Carolina, with a worse team, against a harder schedule . . . . . but science sez Tebow was not good. Does not compute.
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:39 AM   #369
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So you're saying that because Tebow won more games with a worse team against better opponents, Cam is better. That is brilliant. No really, you are a genius.
Dear god you're stupid. Where do you come up with this crap? I never even remotely suggested any such thing. Do I think Newton is "better"? Yes, I do. But to I get there using the ridiculous trail of "logic" you used above? Um, no. But I don't expect much understanding of this from a guy who's laughably stupid enough to think that half the GM's in the league would take Tebow over Newton as you've suggested. What a dope.
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:44 AM   #370
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I'm "moving into the future" because there's no other place to go. Even if we talk about last season, Newton was a better passer, but Tebow won a few more games.
lulz. You're moving into the future because your argument doesn't hold water anywhere but in the mystical future.

Your "Better Passers have more success" theory doesn't work where Newton and Tebow are concerned this year.



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What does Leaf have to do with either quarterback?
One QB clearly has douche issues, just like Mr. Leaf. I'll let you guess which one.
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:02 AM   #371
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So . . . . . Denver won more games than Carolina, with a worse team, against a harder schedule . . . . . but science sez Tebow was not good. Does not compute.
It doesn't compute for some of you people because you think the QB is/was the only factor. Which only proves that you're all out of your depth in this discussion. There's no point in even arguing with any of you.
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:04 AM   #372
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It doesn't compute for some of you people because you think the QB is/was the only factor. Which only proves that you're all out of your depth in this discussion. There's no point in even arguing with any of you.
Harder schedule + more wins = worse team. You argue this as you call others stupid...

You are too stupid for message boards.
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:05 AM   #373
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It doesn't compute for some of you people because you think the QB is/was the only factor. Which only proves that you're all out of your depth in this discussion. There's no point in even arguing with any of you.
Gameplan is a factor, no? I've issued challenges to find anything resembling Denver's gameplans... crickets.

Can you find me a non-goalline example of Carolina running 2WR-2TE (one a lineman in reality) Sets?

Go!
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:06 AM   #374
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Harder schedule + more wins = worse team. You argue this as you call others stupid...

You are too stupid for message boards.
His computer also told him Orton was the better QB.

He's one of the "Orton would've made it to the playoffs too" 7 percenters
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:12 AM   #375
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Harder schedule + more wins = worse team. You argue this as you call others stupid...
You're too caught up in W/L. Go check out Peyton's Manning's W/L his rookie year. I bet some other rookies outperformed him in W/L that year, and certainly other years. So I guess that makes them superior to Manning in your world. Good to know.
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