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Old 05-27-2011, 12:17 PM   #51
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I wish people would STOP comparing this to their day jobs. In your day job, you are a replacable part, you are not the product. The nfl players ARE the product.
This has been addressed. NFL players come and go. The Broncos have been through a half-dozen QBs since #7 retired and they still sell tickets. The franchises are 'the product'. Take the names off the jerseys and the majority of the folks in the stands can't tell the difference.

And if Drew Brees gets in front of a microphone again and talks about how 'all the players want to do is play', I'm putting my foot through my TV. The players walked away from negotiations and put this in the courts. If Demaurice Smith wanted to play, he'd be at the table RIGHT NOW.

They still hope to litigate their way to success. At least the lawyers are doing well...
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Old 05-27-2011, 12:26 PM   #52
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And if Drew Brees gets in front of a microphone again and talks about how 'all the players want to do is play', I'm putting my foot through my TV. The players walked away from negotiations and put this in the courts. If Demaurice Smith wanted to play, he'd be at the table RIGHT NOW.

They still hope to litigate their way to success. At least the lawyers are doing well...
Speaking of De Smith:

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Smith, however, insists that he has embraced decertification as an enduring state of existence, much in the same way that Upshaw did in the early ’90s before – at the NFL’s insistence – he agreed to re-form the union. In an interview with Y! Sports earlier this month, Smith revealed that he envisions navigating the NFLPA through a union-free future, even after a possible settlement of the Brady et al antitrust lawsuit and a new contractual agreement between players and owners.

“I’ve come full circle,” Smith said as he sat in a downtown Bethesda plaza, a few miles from the NFLPA’s Washington D.C. headquarters, on a sunny spring morning. “When I went into this, my attitude was that the only way you have power is collectively, and I believed in unions as vehicles for employees asserting their rights. But looking back on what Gene experienced and understanding this particular situation, I’ve now come to appreciate the value of decertification in our particular circumstance. And I don’t see why we’d want to go back to being a union.”
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu...etified_052711

Basically, it goes on to say that Smith wants the players to have their cake and eat it too. He wants them to remain decertified to get anti-trust protection, and while there would be no true CBA, he also wants the players to get the protections they have always gotten from a CBA in terms of suspensions, caps, floors, etc.
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Old 05-27-2011, 12:44 PM   #53
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Speaking of De Smith:



http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu...etified_052711

Basically, it goes on to say that Smith wants the players to have their cake and eat it too. He wants them to remain decertified to get anti-trust protection, and while there would be no true CBA, he also wants the players to get the protections they have always gotten from a CBA in terms of suspensions, caps, floors, etc.
Yep.

If the players side really wants a deal done, they would get back to negotiating. No deal is going to get done in court and the union walked away from an extension before they decertified.

Not that I don't find fault with some of the things the owners have done but I didn't trust D. Smith since the beginning. He has wanted this to go to court from the very start.
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Old 05-27-2011, 01:10 PM   #54
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This has been addressed. NFL players come and go. The Broncos have been through a half-dozen QBs since #7 retired and they still sell tickets. The franchises are 'the product'. Take the names off the jerseys and the majority of the folks in the stands can't tell the difference.

And if Drew Brees gets in front of a microphone again and talks about how 'all the players want to do is play', I'm putting my foot through my TV. The players walked away from negotiations and put this in the courts. If Demaurice Smith wanted to play, he'd be at the table RIGHT NOW.

They still hope to litigate their way to success. At least the lawyers are doing well...
Youre missing the point. Im not talking about the individual player, im talking about the player as a whole. No matter what, football needs PLAYERS to play. the player is the product.
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Old 05-27-2011, 01:10 PM   #55
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Yep.

If the players side really wants a deal done, they would get back to negotiating. No deal is going to get done in court and the union walked away from an extension before they decertified.

Not that I don't find fault with some of the things the owners have done but I didn't trust D. Smith since the beginning. He has wanted this to go to court from the very start.
And if the owners wanted to play fairly, there would be no lockout.
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Old 05-27-2011, 01:11 PM   #56
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The populous. Thats a good one.


I don't really care one way or another. Too busy to really give a rat's ass. Hell, I don't even remember the last time I watched sport center-- or whatever that albatross has become...
I said it was an odd circumstance, as neither of them really represent the populous, but in this case, if anyone does, its the players.

I agree with the bottom. i stopped reading articles abnout it. just let me know when its done.
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Old 05-27-2011, 01:15 PM   #57
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This has been addressed. NFL players come and go. The Broncos have been through a half-dozen QBs since #7 retired and they still sell tickets. The franchises are 'the product'. Take the names off the jerseys and the majority of the folks in the stands can't tell the difference.
This is only true to an extent. The fans will tolerate top players coming and going, sure. But there is an inherent expectation among fans of all 32 franchises that their ownership will attempt to assemble a quality product on the field. "Quality" of course means winning. If Tom Brady retires, I am sure most Pats fans will stick around under the good faith assumption that the front office will attempt to replace him with the best player they can possibly find.

But let's suppose Pat Bowlen suddenly decided that he was going to order massive roster cuts and target UFL and Canadian league players to cut costs under the assumption that the fans will continue to show up to games because of the "franchise" concept. How many of you would buy a ticket to see that garbage? The answer is nobody would. The "franchise" concept works only insofar as the franchise is at least attempting to produce a competitve product. You do that with top of the line players.
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Old 05-27-2011, 01:38 PM   #58
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Youre missing the point. Im not talking about the individual player, im talking about the player as a whole. No matter what, football needs PLAYERS to play. the player is the product.
Every watch college football? Best case is they have the same starters on a team for four years, but most times, less than that for starters. I'm not saying the product would be 'better', but there will ALWAYS be players willing to play, and it will be a product that people are willing to follow and watch.
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Old 05-27-2011, 01:40 PM   #59
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The "franchise" concept works only insofar as the franchise is at least attempting to produce a competitve product. You do that with top of the line players.
Not accurate. If all the competition was 50% of the current level, or said another way, teams made up of college players or UDFA's, the level of competition would change, and it wouldn't take what are not considered "top of the line" players to be competitive.
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Old 05-27-2011, 02:08 PM   #60
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Every watch college football? Best case is they have the same starters on a team for four years, but most times, less than that for starters. I'm not saying the product would be 'better', but there will ALWAYS be players willing to play, and it will be a product that people are willing to follow and watch.
Bad example for me, i dont really watch college football because of the quality.

Though i do agree that if the change were very gradual, we wouldnt notice the difference and we'd adapt subconsciously. But if tomorrow you just hired a bunch of replacement players, people wouldnt buy that. Therefore, THESE players are the product.
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Old 05-27-2011, 02:12 PM   #61
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And if the owners wanted to play fairly, there would be no lockout.
So what about 2006, when the owners took a bad deal basically to avoid a work stoppage.

The owners just delayed the inevitable.
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Old 05-27-2011, 02:14 PM   #62
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So what about 2006, when the owners took a bad deal basically to avoid a work stoppage.

The owners just delayed the inevitable.
Im not saying the players arent without any kind of responsibility/fault here, but that was what the owners agreeed to and have been planning for this lockout ever since (as evidenced by the tv deal). Im not really siding with either side because i think ego is winning out here, but the fact is, in the simplest of terms, that the owners imposed the lockout, the players sued to prevent it. So in the simplest terms, it actually is on the owners right now.
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Old 05-27-2011, 02:30 PM   #63
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The players showed little intentions to me of getting a fair deal for both sides done.

What also bothers me is how it seems Mr. Smith wants to freakin ruin the NFL with these lawsuits, decertifying, etc. Stop trying to screw the league out of existence is my stake.
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Old 05-27-2011, 02:39 PM   #64
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The players showed little intentions to me of getting a fair deal for both sides done.

What also bothers me is how it seems Mr. Smith wants to freakin ruin the NFL with these lawsuits, decertifying, etc. Stop trying to screw the league out of existence is my stake.
It's because he doesn't care what happens to the NFL. He just wants to win and use this as a stepping stone to move on to bigger things.

If you listen to player interviews on Sirius NFL radio, it's sounding like some players are starting to not buy into that company line as much as they did in the beginning.

I know players aren't the brightest bulbs around but I cannot believe they bought into this guys crap so much.
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Old 05-27-2011, 02:55 PM   #65
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No matter what, football needs PLAYERS to play.
Yes, that's true. But you could replace these 1500 guys with 1500 other guys who were stars in high school/college/etc.

It's not like you couldn't find guys willing to bust their ass to make a roster.
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Old 05-27-2011, 03:00 PM   #66
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This is only true to an extent. The fans will tolerate top players coming and going, sure. But there is an inherent expectation among fans of all 32 franchises that their ownership will attempt to assemble a quality product on the field. "Quality" of course means winning. If Tom Brady retires, I am sure most Pats fans will stick around under the good faith assumption that the front office will attempt to replace him with the best player they can possibly find.
There are a couple problems with this argument. First, there are a number of franchises who haven't won in recent memory. Are those franchises still profitable? Look at the Denver Broncos, for example. They were 4-12 last year, and yet people still filled the stands. If the 53 Broncos were sent to Mars and the rest of the NFL stayed the same - yes, Denver looks really inferior. But if you replaced the players in the league wholesale - it's all relative.

Secondly - the whole 'top line players' argument really holds little water. People pay good money to see minor league ball, college ball, even high school sports. People root for their favorite TEAM. Griese, Plummer, Cutler, Orton, Tebow... And people keep buying tickets..
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Old 05-27-2011, 03:03 PM   #67
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Every watch college football? Best case is they have the same starters on a team for four years, but most times, less than that for starters. I'm not saying the product would be 'better', but there will ALWAYS be players willing to play, and it will be a product that people are willing to follow and watch.
Perfectly phrased. Basketball programs are often looking at their stars for a single year - yet March Madness is still a golden goose.

In truth, many fans would be happier rooting for some guy busting his ass every play than these millionaire primadonnas anyway.
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Old 05-27-2011, 03:48 PM   #68
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Perfectly phrased. Basketball programs are often looking at their stars for a single year - yet March Madness is still a golden goose.

In truth, many fans would be happier rooting for some guy busting his ass every play than these millionaire primadonnas anyway.
Yea, my typo aside, while I'm not a big NCAA guy, I know that in many, many cities and states the fans are FAR more avid for the college teams than the pros. Very large stadiums always sold out.

I know these aren't apples to apples, because the fans feel pride in the state/city school, and typically follow them in multiple sports, but the point is that their product on the field/court constantly rotates, but the fans still love it and pay for it.

So, I'm not saying starts don't matter at all, but I don't think they matter as much as some claim. The product is the entertainment we get watching the players. Most of us have seen the roster turn over many, many times. Sometimes the teams have been good, sometimes bad (Broncos more good than bad, most other teams not so much).
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Old 05-27-2011, 10:03 PM   #69
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But let's suppose Pat Bowlen suddenly decided that he was going to order massive roster cuts and target UFL and Canadian league players to cut costs under the assumption that the fans will continue to show up to games because of the "franchise" concept. How many of you would buy a ticket to see that garbage? The answer is nobody would.
Weird. Cause this actually did already happen and the Broncos sold out every game.
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:57 AM   #70
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There is literally not one thing correct about this post. It's been disproven over and over, yet you still continue to post it. Please provide evidence. Prove me wrong.

You can't.
BS, I am absolutely correct. unfortunately your bias blinds you to the truth. If you took your mouth off the collective nuts of the owners you would see that I'm right & you're WRONG.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:04 AM   #71
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BS, I am absolutely correct. unfortunately your bias blinds you to the truth. If you took your mouth off the collective nuts of the owners you would see that I'm right & you're WRONG.
Just like I thought. Zero evidence or proof of any kind.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:15 AM   #72
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There is no status quo. The owners and players agreed to a CBA that included an option for the owners to end the CBA after 2 years and they exercised that right. That deal is history so now the players and owners need to negotiate a new one. I think D. Smith blew it. If they would have continued to negotiate with the threat of litigation in their back pocket the players would of at least had some kind of leverage. Now the owners are pissed and if the players lose in court they are going to get *** ***** by the owners.
If this guy loves to litigate, he should go to congress. How bad do I dislike this guy? I'd rather have upshaw.....
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:33 AM   #73
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If this guy loves to litigate, he should go to congress. How bad do I dislike this guy? I'd rather have upshaw.....
Amen. Smith doesn't seem to realize that the best interest of the players isn't just the money, because the money isn't going to do them any good if they aren't playing.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:34 AM   #74
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Weird. Cause this actually did already happen and the Broncos sold out every game.
The handful of games during the '87 strike can hardly be considered a sufficient sample size to make any long term deductions. Particularly since the top players were sitting at home and not playing in a competing league.

Last edited by BroncoInferno; 05-28-2011 at 09:58 AM..
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:36 AM   #75
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Yes, that's true. But you could replace these 1500 guys with 1500 other guys who were stars in high school/college/etc.

It's not like you couldn't find guys willing to bust their ass to make a roster.
Then you would have the UFL, how many fans do they have these days?
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