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Old 04-18-2011, 11:12 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Arkie View Post
The main incentive would be because of sound money with stable prices. Everybody will see the goods going up in Federal Reserve Notes, but they stay the same price in the local currency.
B2B gets that, but the "consumer" is a little behind yet.

I'm also looking at printing up some literature as a primer to get public support. B2B was easy to gain support when I went over the "top level" view of it.

I'm hoping that this new group of people i'm going to be interacting with soon has a good grasp on the things I don't.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:53 AM   #177
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The problem is when do you cash it in to something you can use to buy good or services. There is a bubble, and gold could crash, will crash at some point. The reality is you can't buy much with it without exchanging it for currency.

The day you just weight out some gold to buy something isn't coming.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:45 PM   #178
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Is There A Limit To Precious Metals Prices?

Gold and silver prices continue to skyrocket as we expected. Most of the recent price movements have been driven by supply and demand factors that are yet to be fully understood by the broader public. But as prices move ever higher, the commentary in favor of some kind of precious metals bubble gets louder. So, outside of fundamental supply/demand dynamics, is there a justification for these prices?


First off, gold and silver prices may be at (gold) or approaching (silver) nominal highs, but are well below inflation-adjusted highs. Depending on your definition of inflation, the inflation-adjusted high for gold is about $2,200 per ounce. For silver it is about $850 per ounce. Both were set in 1980.

When we talk about fundamental values for both, we are not really talking about any intrinsic value. What we are really talking about is their value as alternative forms of money. Again, and this point cannot be stressed enough, the price of gold does not change – the currency you are comparing it to does. If the price of gold rises in US dollar terms, this simply means that the US dollar is losing comparative value as a means of exchange.

In this context it is entirely appropriate to compare precious metals in inflation-adjusted terms. Inflation itself is a monetary phenomenon that is nothing more than currency debasement. And so it stands to reason that the more a currency is debased the more an alternative is to be sought.

Those inflation era highs can be a good basis of comparison, but it must be remembered that they were set during double-digit inflation and interest rates. We are not there, yet.

In terms of currency alternatives, though, the present time may be the most dangerous. The just-concluded 3rd BRICS summit (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and recently added South Africa) showcased a lot of open talk about replacing the dollar as the world’s reserve currency. They even went so far as to begin discussing details of trade regimes that are denominated in local currencies instead of US dollars.

This is not the only time a dollar alternative has been discussed. In fact, the dollar noise is growing louder.

How would this all impact gold, and by extension silver?

For one, any new global currency regime would have to include the metals – even under the auspices of the International Monetary Fund’s (IMF) Special Drawing Rights (SDR). So if we turn to the largest holder of gold, the United States, we can draw a speculative line between its gold holdings and the Federal Reserve’s balance sheet.

The US dollar is a function of the credit extended by the Federal Reserve, which is far above simply the number of Federal Reserve Notes in existence. Currently (as of April 14, 2011) the Fed has extended an astounding 2.7 trillion “dollars” to the financial system, including $1 trillion in actual currency and $1.18 trillion in bank reserves.

Backing this currency is $1.37 trillion in US Treasury Securities, $131 billion in federal agency debt (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac), $937 billion in mortgage-backed securities, $43 billion in Treasury currency, and some other assorted “assets”, including $5.2 billion in IMF SDR’s. Gold only accounts for $11 billion.

But the gold stock (certificates) on the Federal Reserve’s books is being valued at the same price as the 1933 dollar devaluation, $42.2222 per fine troy ounce. In total, the Federal Reserve is currently using 261,499,000 troy ounces of gold as “collateral” for the dollar at 78-year old prices.

If we value these holdings at current market prices ($1,485), the value on the Fed’s books would be $388 billion, still only 14.3% of the Fed’s liabilities. To fully back the dollar with gold would mean a price of $10,337 per ounce. And that gives the Fed full credit for its gold holdings.


We know that not all of the government’s gold is actually in the possession of the government at Fort Knox. The US has been leasing gold for years. The exact proportion of actual, physical gold to paper claims (leasing agreements) is, and will be, unknowable. But if we are talking about a paradigm shift in the international financial system then paper claims will not be enough.

This may seem like an outrageous proposition, but considering the lack of support for the dollar right now the conditions are ripening for a Bretton Woods-style change. Even if there is a move to SDR’s, there has to be some collateral behind them far above just financial paper, including US Treasuries. In any conversion, the price of gold will have to be adjusted to any set proportion of capital contributions to the new international regime(s).

Since the US is the biggest holder (we think) then it may get the largest credit and/or concessions. That may mean some amount of Fed “assets”, including mortgage notes and US Treasuries will be allowed as currency collateral. Or it may include other commodities such as oil – which the US is in possession of in its strategic reserves.

Whatever may happen, we know that a gold coverage of 14.3% of all dollars is likely not nearly enough. Just to get to a 50% collateral arrangement, the price would have to rise to $5,168 per ounce. Since silver is historically related to gold at 16 to 1, that would translate to $323 per ounce of silver.

For many people this line of thinking is far-fetched and may seem like lunacy and fear-mongering. Yet these are exactly the kinds of discussions that foreign governments have been having for well over a year. Investors should not sit back and allow recency bias (the belief that because something has not happened in the recent past it will not happen at all) to blind them to what is a real possibility.

Context conditioning is certainly at play – people have now grown accustomed to massive monetary intervention. Four years ago the thought of the Federal Reserve’s balance sheet above $1 trillion was just as offending. Federal Reserve purchases of US Treasury debt was thought an absolute impossibility. So there has already been a paradigm shift in the dollar’s structure. Why should we expect that everyone is on board with it?

Now that we have become partially untethered to past “rules” and practices of monetary conventions, can it not be just as likely that the ultimate solution will be in the opposite direction of the current altered regime? Fundamental shifts are both unpredictable and volatile.

Getting back to gold and silver prices, there is no ceiling in the context of dollar uncertainty. Being so far below inflation-adjusted prices provides ample support on its own. Any additional probabilities of currency realignments just adds to that support. Whether or not the dollar’s reserve currency status is revoked is only part of the equation. In the much bigger picture, people around the world are growing very tired of always getting the short end of universal debasement and manipulation (and this is not just a US creation).

While we may not yet have passed the tipping point, we should at least consider that there may come a time when paper claims on assets will no longer be provided the same value as real, tangible assets. Any shift toward that perception, whether a radical overhaul or even a partial change, requires a fundamental revaluation of the relationship between currency and metal.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:50 PM   #179
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Those of you that do not understand gold's place in the financial world should read the above post by arkie it's everything you need to know about gold but were afraid to ask.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:52 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
The problem is when do you cash it in to something you can use to buy good or services. There is a bubble, and gold could crash, will crash at some point. The reality is you can't buy much with it without exchanging it for currency.

The day you just weight out some gold to buy something isn't coming.
You really need to read Arkie's post right under yours.
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:11 PM   #181
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But the gold stock (certificates) on the Federal Reserve’s books is being valued at the same price as the 1933 dollar devaluation, $42.2222 per fine troy ounce. In total, the Federal Reserve is currently using 261,499,000 troy ounces of gold as “collateral” for the dollar at 78-year old prices.
Wow. I never saw this statement before.

Does this mean that our debt holders will get to buy gold at 42 bucks an oz?
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Old 04-19-2011, 05:40 PM   #182
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Cutt let me put it this way. For those who have gold real estate is getting cheaper by the day. (Generally speaking). That is just one example of how gold is in fact a currency.

I tossed out an offer to buy some land in Dec. It was an offer of cash and gold. He was willing to accept the gold as payment at that days spot price. We differed on the overall price and did not come to terms. As gold continues to rise and his land value continues to fall I may just end up with the parcel of land at my original price in terms of dollars.

My positions in gold are long but converting to land/water is a way to capture some profits. As you've said you can't eat gold but gold is food, water, cash in any currency in the world or whatever you want.

Hey Garcia. Gold is up around $500 an oz since you declared it a bad investment.

Last edited by Meck77; 04-19-2011 at 07:59 PM..
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Old 04-19-2011, 08:50 PM   #183
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Old 04-20-2011, 06:35 AM   #184
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The media isn't really covering gold. Most people didn't realize that gold set a new record close almost every day last week. Most people don't know that gold went is over $1500 for the first time ever this morning! These are not signs of a bubble.
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Old 04-20-2011, 06:37 AM   #185
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Nope. It shows the continuing devaluing of the USD.

Things aren't JUST getting more expensive, it's also the falling U$D's value.
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:17 AM   #186
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The media isn't really covering gold. Most people didn't realize that gold set a new record close almost every day last week. Most people don't know that gold went is over $1500 for the first time ever this morning! These are not signs of a bubble.
I suggest we all create as much debt as possible because the only place left to go is for the global financial cartel to agree to cancel all debt both public and private. If they don't agree there will be long years of war and revolution and after the blood bath ending up with the same result anyway,so go buy your toys now boys

and remember I'm usually 2 or 3 years ahead of the trends.
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:18 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkie View Post
The media isn't really covering gold. Most people didn't realize that gold set a new record close almost every day last week. Most people don't know that gold went is over $1500 for the first time ever this morning! These are not signs of a bubble.
I just saw an hour long thing on it last friday on CNN. It is a bubble. Things only have the value we believe them to have.
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:23 AM   #188
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http://www.blacklistednews.com/?news_id=13562

Gold is approaching $1,500 an ounce this morning as it hits a new record, while silver surpasses $43, as fiscal pressures weigh on U.S. markets. The Dow has fallen almost 200 points in early trading.

S&P maintained the AAA rating of the United States, but cited the continued unresolved budget deficits as the reason for its statement that there is a one-in-three chance that it would lower its rating on the U.S. within two years

"Because the U.S. has, relative to its 'AAA' peers, what we consider to be very large budget deficits and rising government indebtedness and the path to addressing these is not clear to us, we have revised our outlook on the long-term rating to negative from stable," the agency said in a statement.

This announcement will put further pressure on the dollar, and will most likely give weight to discussions held by George Soros and crew at Bretton Woods II about managing the global economy in the face of a U.S. dollar collapse.

Sources for this story:
Rueters/CNBC: http://www.cnbc.com/id/42643384
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:25 AM   #189
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Spend your dollars as fast as you can. Buy fertile land, hand tools an old ford tractor and parts and especially heirloom seeds. Come together with a community of people that are interested in the same things you are.

Even main stream is seeing it now.

http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pr...VD/LPSIM451/PR
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:27 AM   #190
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Spend your dollars as fast as you can. Buy fertile land, hand tools an old ford tractor and parts and especially heirloom seeds. Come together with a community of people that are interested in the same things you are.

Even main stream is seeing it now.

http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pr...VD/LPSIM451/PR
I've already been establishing this.
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Old 04-20-2011, 10:55 AM   #191
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Liberty Dollar deemed counterfeit by jury. Founder speaks out.

He produced silver, copper, and gold medallions to be bought, sold, and exchanged, but a jury calls it counterfeiting and convicted him.

Now, he's talking to NBC25.

Bernard von NotHaus, the founder of Liberty Dollar, says he's a political prisoner and that your money will soon be worth even less.

For the last 12-years, Liberty Dollar based in Evansville, Indiana, produced copper, silver, and gold rounds.

They can't be called "coins" because only the government makes those.

"People are interested in their money and when they know they're getting screwed, they get real interested in their money and that's why the government cracked down on Liberty Dollar," von NotHaus tells NBC25.

In 2010, NBC25 did a series of stories on this competing currency with thousands of people liking it and sharing it on Facebook.

Liberty Dollar says its product is different from and superior to U.S. legal tender because it's inflation-proof and based on the value of precious metals.

"In the last 10 years, the Liberty Dollar went from a $10 base to a $50 base. It increased in value 500%. The other currency in the last ten years lost 50% of its purchasing power," says von NotHaus. "How can a counterfeit be worth more than the original?"

The U.S. Government says Liberty Dollar comes too close to legal tender with its use of the inscriptions "liberty," "dollars," "trust in God" (similar to "in God we trust") and "USA."

In 2006, the U.S. Mint told the public, "Prosecutors with the Department of Justice have determined that the use of these gold and silver NORFED 'liberty dollar' medallions as circulating money is a federal crime."

For those who own his product, von NotHaus says, "I love my country, but I fear the government."

The most serious conviction carries a 15-year prison term.

Von NotHaus is appealing the conviction.

There's an April 4th court date to decide if Liberty Dollar will be forced to forfeit its products to the government.

It includes 16,000 pounds of precious metals valued at nearly $7-million.


(update: he was found not guilty)
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Old 04-20-2011, 11:27 AM   #192
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Old 04-20-2011, 12:09 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Arkie View Post
Liberty Dollar deemed counterfeit by jury. Founder speaks out.

He produced silver, copper, and gold medallions to be bought, sold, and exchanged, but a jury calls it counterfeiting and convicted him.

Now, he's talking to NBC25.

Bernard von NotHaus, the founder of Liberty Dollar, says he's a political prisoner and that your money will soon be worth even less.

For the last 12-years, Liberty Dollar based in Evansville, Indiana, produced copper, silver, and gold rounds.

They can't be called "coins" because only the government makes those.

"People are interested in their money and when they know they're getting screwed, they get real interested in their money and that's why the government cracked down on Liberty Dollar," von NotHaus tells NBC25.

In 2010, NBC25 did a series of stories on this competing currency with thousands of people liking it and sharing it on Facebook.

Liberty Dollar says its product is different from and superior to U.S. legal tender because it's inflation-proof and based on the value of precious metals.

"In the last 10 years, the Liberty Dollar went from a $10 base to a $50 base. It increased in value 500%. The other currency in the last ten years lost 50% of its purchasing power," says von NotHaus. "How can a counterfeit be worth more than the original?"

The U.S. Government says Liberty Dollar comes too close to legal tender with its use of the inscriptions "liberty," "dollars," "trust in God" (similar to "in God we trust") and "USA."

In 2006, the U.S. Mint told the public, "Prosecutors with the Department of Justice have determined that the use of these gold and silver NORFED 'liberty dollar' medallions as circulating money is a federal crime."

For those who own his product, von NotHaus says, "I love my country, but I fear the government."

The most serious conviction carries a 15-year prison term.

Von NotHaus is appealing the conviction.

There's an April 4th court date to decide if Liberty Dollar will be forced to forfeit its products to the government.

It includes 16,000 pounds of precious metals valued at nearly $7-million.


(update: he was found not guilty)
These are the tell tale actions governments undertake when they know their currency is tanking. These are signs of last resort efforts to prop up the failing official currency. Do not be surprised if it becomes illegal to own gold in the not too distant future.
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Old 04-20-2011, 12:14 PM   #194
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No doubt the powers that be will go after Porter hard and heavy for what he is saying;

http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pr...VD/LPSIM451/PR
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:01 AM   #195
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I just saw an hour long thing on it last friday on CNN. It is a bubble. Things only have the value we believe them to have.
You said gold was a bubble at $1000. It has slowly and methodically gone up another 50% since then. That's not a bubble. Wait until it starts moving in multiples over a period of months, then it will be breaking news everyday like in 1979.

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Old 04-21-2011, 11:29 AM   #196
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Silver just reached $46/ounce. It was $19/ounce last July.
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:36 AM   #197
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These are the tell tale actions governments undertake when they know their currency is tanking. These are signs of last resort efforts to prop up the failing official currency. Do not be surprised if it becomes illegal to own gold in the not too distant future.
Currency devaluation and then changing the currency all together wont be far behind either of those two things.
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:52 AM   #198
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Currency devaluation and then changing the currency all together wont be far behind either of those two things.
When the dollar fails look for a push for a cashless society. They will tell us how much safer we will all be. They will say it will cripple terrorism and kill the illegal drug trade and all the sheeple will clamor for it. Then every transaction will be recorded and taxed. Worse yet, no card = no food
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:53 AM   #199
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It's all part of the plan.
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:57 AM   #200
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When the dollar fails look for a push for a cashless society. They will tell us how much safer we will all be. They will say it will cripple terrorism and kill the illegal drug trade and all the sheeple will clamor for it. Then every transaction will be recorded and taxed. Worse yet, no card = no food
Some of "us" are trying to change the rules.
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