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Old 01-20-2011, 12:04 PM   #51
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Where were the Pro Life, abortion clinic bombers?

They kill the docs who perform legal terminations, but ignore this scumbag while he practices his unbelievably evil deeds.
If you were to look closely over the years, most of the time one of the abortionists is being targeted, the "protesters" are claiming that he's doing illegal late term abortions, committing infanticide, etc. It's what causes them to be able to get themselves worked up into justifying murder of the abortionist.

But in some parts, nobody ever wants to hear from the "Operation Rescue" types. Janet Reno brought RICO charges against them.
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Old 01-20-2011, 12:05 PM   #52
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The procedure as illustrated above actually proves that the "doctors" who perform this abomination know that it is wrong. Why leave the head in the canal? There's no reason for that, other than it forestalls the possibility that the baby might grab a breath and start crying. I guess it would be a little more difficult to suck out its brain then, ethically speaking. I guess it's one of those legalities. If they leave the head in the canal, it's not a person, it's more like a gall bladder.
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Old 01-20-2011, 12:22 PM   #53
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Over population is the root problem on the planet today but abortion is not the solution.

To women that want to determine what happens to their bodies don't have unprotected sex.
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Old 01-20-2011, 02:20 PM   #54
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Over population is the root problem on the planet today but abortion is not the solution.

To women that want to determine what happens to their bodies don't have unprotected sex.
Exactly. I agree with everything in this post.

You want to slow global warming, slow the global birth rate down.

But not with abortions.

Women do have a choice. The choice to have unprotected sex or not.
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Old 01-20-2011, 02:31 PM   #55
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If you develop the economy, and have an environment where people actually have a chance to better themselves, and put the full consequences of childbirth on the parents (fathers included), birth rates aren't too much of a problem. People with something to lose don't tend to keep birthing babies. They might make a stupid mistake, but they learn from the first one. (And one kid per mother isn't contributing to overpopulation).

Make people actually pay their own way (and their family's), and they tend to start acting like the middle class. Working, saving, and making better decisions.

We need to become a society where everyone feels like he has a stake in the neighborhood, or feels like he has a nest egg that he's preserving. People self-police most of these behaviors then.
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Old 01-20-2011, 03:49 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay3 View Post
If you develop the economy, and have an environment where people actually have a chance to better themselves, and put the full consequences of childbirth on the parents (fathers included), birth rates aren't too much of a problem. People with something to lose don't tend to keep birthing babies. They might make a stupid mistake, but they learn from the first one. (And one kid per mother isn't contributing to overpopulation).

Make people actually pay their own way (and their family's), and they tend to start acting like the middle class. Working, saving, and making better decisions.

We need to become a society where everyone feels like he has a stake in the neighborhood, or feels like he has a nest egg that he's preserving. People self-police most of these behaviors then.
Seems simple doesn't it? Don't want to get OT but this is why I am against the current welfare system. People are given money and food and a place to live. They never get everything you just brought up.
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Old 01-20-2011, 04:00 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Jay3 View Post
If you were to look closely over the years, most of the time one of the abortionists is being targeted, the "protesters" are claiming that he's doing illegal late term abortions, committing infanticide, etc. It's what causes them to be able to get themselves worked up into justifying murder of the abortionist.

But in some parts, nobody ever wants to hear from the "Operation Rescue" types. Janet Reno brought RICO charges against them.
With all the malpractice suits in place, you'd think they would have noticed his activities and drawn attention to his clinic.

Neither the pro life crowd, the State health dept or medical boards seem to give a damn.
And as his lawsuits go back a decade, State funding can't be the reason he wasn't put out of business, it has to be indifference or incompetence.
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Old 01-20-2011, 04:33 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by DenverBrit View Post
With all the malpractice suits in place, you'd think they would have noticed his activities and drawn attention to his clinic.

Neither the pro life crowd, the State health dept or medical boards seem to give a damn.
And as his lawsuits go back a decade, State funding can't be the reason he wasn't put out of business, it has to be indifference or incompetence.
It was willful neglect on the part of the Department of Health. They had ample knowledge of what was happening from multiple complaints, some hand delivered by a physician who ultimately wound up working for the Philadelphia DOH. That's right -- a physician who repeatedly complained to the DOH about Gosnell ultimately went to work for the DOH. They knew exactly what was going on.

From the grand jury report: http://www.phila.gov/districtattorne...ensMedical.pdf

Ironically, the doctor at CHOP who personally complained to the Pennsylvania
Department of Health about the spread of venereal disease from Gosnell’s clinic, the
doctor who used to refer teenage girls to Gosnell for abortions, became the head of the
city’s health department two years ago. But nothing changed in the time leading up to
Mrs. Mongar’s death. And it wasn’t just government agencies that did nothing. The
Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania and its subsidiary, Penn Presbyterian Medical
Center, are in the same neighborhood as Gosnell’s office. State law requires hospitals to
report complications from abortions. A decade ago, a Gosnell patient died at HUP after a
botched abortion, and the hospital apparently filed the necessary report. But the victims 13
kept coming in. At least three other Gosnell patients were brought to Penn facilities for
emergency surgery; emergency room personnel said they have treated many others as
well. And at least one additional woman was hospitalized there after Gosnell had begun
a flagrantly illegal abortion of a 29-week-old fetus. Yet, other than the one initial report,
Penn could find not a single case in which it complied with its legal duty to alert
authorities to the danger. Not even when a second woman turned up virtually dead.
So too with the National Abortion Federation. NAF is an association of abortion
providers that upholds the strictest health and legal standards for its members. Gosnell,
bizarrely, applied for admission shortly after Karnamaya Mongar’s death. Despite his
various efforts to fool her, the evaluator from NAF readily noted that records were not
properly kept, that risks were not explained, that patients were not monitored, that
equipment was not available, that anesthesia was misused. It was the worst abortion
clinic she had ever inspected. Of course, she rejected Gosnell’s application. She just
never told anyone in authority about all the horrible, dangerous things she had seen.
Bureaucratic inertia is not exactly news. We understand that. But we think this
was something more. We think the reason no one acted is because the women in
question were poor and of color, because the victims were infants without identities, and
because the subject was the political football of abortion.
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:12 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Broncenstein View Post
It was willful neglect on the part of the Department of Health. They had ample knowledge of what was happening from multiple complaints, some hand delivered by a physician who ultimately wound up working for the Philadelphia DOH. That's right -- a physician who repeatedly complained to the DOH about Gosnell ultimately went to work for the DOH. They knew exactly what was going on.

From the grand jury report: http://www.phila.gov/districtattorne...ensMedical.pdf

Ironically, the doctor at CHOP who personally complained to the Pennsylvania
Department of Health about the spread of venereal disease from Gosnell’s clinic, the
doctor who used to refer teenage girls to Gosnell for abortions, became the head of the
city’s health department two years ago. But nothing changed in the time leading up to
Mrs. Mongar’s death. And it wasn’t just government agencies that did nothing. The
Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania and its subsidiary, Penn Presbyterian Medical
Center, are in the same neighborhood as Gosnell’s office. State law requires hospitals to
report complications from abortions. A decade ago, a Gosnell patient died at HUP after a
botched abortion, and the hospital apparently filed the necessary report. But the victims 13
kept coming in. At least three other Gosnell patients were brought to Penn facilities for
emergency surgery; emergency room personnel said they have treated many others as
well. And at least one additional woman was hospitalized there after Gosnell had begun
a flagrantly illegal abortion of a 29-week-old fetus. Yet, other than the one initial report,
Penn could find not a single case in which it complied with its legal duty to alert
authorities to the danger. Not even when a second woman turned up virtually dead.
So too with the National Abortion Federation. NAF is an association of abortion
providers that upholds the strictest health and legal standards for its members. Gosnell,
bizarrely, applied for admission shortly after Karnamaya Mongar’s death. Despite his
various efforts to fool her, the evaluator from NAF readily noted that records were not
properly kept, that risks were not explained, that patients were not monitored, that
equipment was not available, that anesthesia was misused. It was the worst abortion
clinic she had ever inspected. Of course, she rejected Gosnell’s application. She just
never told anyone in authority about all the horrible, dangerous things she had seen.
Bureaucratic inertia is not exactly news. We understand that. But we think this
was something more. We think the reason no one acted is because the women in
question were poor and of color, because the victims were infants without identities, and
because the subject was the political football of abortion.
I bet that's what we were all thinking from the beginning of this thread, I know I was. Future welfare babies that nobody wanted and would be a drain on society all their lives first welfare than crime ending in prison.

Did you guys have this thought?
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:18 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baja View Post
I bet that's what we were all thinking from the beginning of this thread, I know I was. Future welfare babies that nobody wanted and would be a drain on society all their lives first welfare than crime ending in prison.

Did you guys have this thought?
I was thinking more along the lines of abortion being the liberal sacred cow. But I see your point as well.
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:52 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Broncenstein View Post
It was willful neglect on the part of the Department of Health. They had ample knowledge of what was happening from multiple complaints, some hand delivered by a physician who ultimately wound up working for the Philadelphia DOH. That's right -- a physician who repeatedly complained to the DOH about Gosnell ultimately went to work for the DOH. They knew exactly what was going on.

From the grand jury report: http://www.phila.gov/districtattorne...ensMedical.pdf

Ironically, the doctor at CHOP who personally complained to the Pennsylvania
Department of Health about the spread of venereal disease from Gosnell’s clinic, the
doctor who used to refer teenage girls to Gosnell for abortions, became the head of the
city’s health department two years ago. But nothing changed in the time leading up to
Mrs. Mongar’s death. And it wasn’t just government agencies that did nothing. The
Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania and its subsidiary, Penn Presbyterian Medical
Center, are in the same neighborhood as Gosnell’s office. State law requires hospitals to
report complications from abortions. A decade ago, a Gosnell patient died at HUP after a
botched abortion, and the hospital apparently filed the necessary report. But the victims 13
kept coming in. At least three other Gosnell patients were brought to Penn facilities for
emergency surgery; emergency room personnel said they have treated many others as
well. And at least one additional woman was hospitalized there after Gosnell had begun
a flagrantly illegal abortion of a 29-week-old fetus. Yet, other than the one initial report,
Penn could find not a single case in which it complied with its legal duty to alert
authorities to the danger. Not even when a second woman turned up virtually dead.
So too with the National Abortion Federation. NAF is an association of abortion
providers that upholds the strictest health and legal standards for its members. Gosnell,
bizarrely, applied for admission shortly after Karnamaya Mongar’s death. Despite his
various efforts to fool her, the evaluator from NAF readily noted that records were not
properly kept, that risks were not explained, that patients were not monitored, that
equipment was not available, that anesthesia was misused. It was the worst abortion
clinic she had ever inspected. Of course, she rejected Gosnell’s application. She just
never told anyone in authority about all the horrible, dangerous things she had seen.
Bureaucratic inertia is not exactly news. We understand that. But we think this
was something more. We think the reason no one acted is because the women in
question were poor and of color, because the victims were infants without identities, and
because the subject was the political football of abortion.
Criminal indifference on the part of the DOH and if the last sentence is true, one has to wonder how widespread the problem really is; not just in PA
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:53 PM   #62
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I bet that's what we were all thinking from the beginning of this thread, I know I was. Future welfare babies that nobody wanted and would be a drain on society all their lives first welfare than crime ending in prison.

Did you guys have this thought?
I do now.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:04 PM   #63
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Here is another excerpt from that report, around page 148:

Since February 2010, Department of Health officials have reinstituted regular
inspections of abortion clinics – finding authority in the same statute they used
earlier to justify not inspecting.
Staloski blamed the decision to abandon supposedly annual inspections of
abortion clinics on DOH lawyers, who, she said, changed their legal opinions and advice
to suit the policy preferences of different governors. Under Governor Robert Casey, she
said, the department inspected abortion facilities annually. Yet, when Governor Tom
Ridge came in, the attorneys interpreted the same regulations that had permitted annual
inspections for years to no longer authorize those inspections. Then, only complaintdriven inspections supposedly were authorized. Staloski said that DOH’s policy during
Governor Ridge’s administration was motivated by a desire not to be “putting a barrier up
to women” seeking abortions.
Brody confirmed some of what Staloski told the Grand Jury. He described a
meeting of high-level government officials in 1999 at which a decision was made not to
accept a recommendation to reinstitute regular inspections of abortion clinics. The
reasoning, as Brody recalled, was: “there was a concern that if they did routine
inspections, that they may find a lot of these facilities didn’t meet [the standards for
getting patients out by stretcher or wheelchair in an emergency], and then there would be
less abortion facilities, less access to women to have an abortion.”
Brody testified that he did not consider the “access issue” a legal one. The
Abortion Control Act, he told the Grand Jurors, charges DOH with protecting the health
and safety of women having abortions and premature infants aborted alive. To carry out
this responsibility, he said, DOH should regularly inspect the facilities. 148
Nevertheless, the position of DOH remained the same after Edward Rendell
became governor. Using the legally faulty excuse that the department lacked the authority
to inspect abortion clinics, Staloski left them unmonitored, presumably with the
knowledge and blessing of her bosses, Deputy Secretary Stacy Mitchell and a succession
of Secretaries of Health. The department continued its do-nothing policy until 2010,
when media attention surrounding the raid of the Gosnell clinic exposed the results of
years of hands-off “oversight.” Now, once again, the regulations, which have never been
modified, apparently allow for regular inspections. This is, and always was, the correct
position. The state legislature gave DOH the duty to enforce its regulations; the authority
and power to do so are implicit in that duty. The department abandoned this
responsibility without explanation, and without notice to the public or the legislature.
Whatever its motivation, DOH’s deliberate policy decision not to conduct regular
inspections of abortion clinics did not serve the women of this Commonwealth. Nor did it
protect late-term fetuses or viable babies born alive. The Grand Jury heard testimony
from legitimate abortion providers and from abortion-rights advocates, and not one
indicated that annual inspections would be unduly burdensome. The doctors we heard
from, and the organizations that refer women to abortion providers, told us that the
reputable providers comply with all of the state regulations and more. Annual inspections
are not an issue with them. Many clinics in Pennsylvania are already inspected by NAF,
whose standards are, in many ways, more protective of women’s safety than are the
state’s regulations. 149
Without regular inspections, providers like Gosnell continue to operate; unlawful
and dangerous third-trimester abortions go undetected; and many women, especially poor
women, suffer. These are all consequences of DOH’s abdication of its responsibility.
Moreover, even if Staloski was instructed not to conduct regular, annual
inspections, that does not explain why she failed to order inspections when complaints
were received. It is clear to us that she was made aware, numerous times, that serious
incidents had occurred at Gosnell’s clinic. These incidents, which evidenced alarming as
well as illegal long-standing patterns of behavior, warranted investigation. Yet, in all the
years she worked at the department, Staloski never ordered even one inspection.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:09 PM   #64
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I was thinking more along the lines of abortion being the liberal sacred cow. But I see your point as well.
To be clear that is not my view. It is what I think the athorties thought.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:13 PM   #65
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This was wanton and willing criminal neglect by the Pennsylvania state and Philadelphia regulatory agencies. It was done in order to keep any and all options of abortion open to the public, because it aligns politically with the Department of Health and the City of Philadelphia.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:18 PM   #66
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To be clear that is not my view. It is what I think the athorties thought.
I understand where you are coming from. Believe it or not... I'm not a strict pro-lifer. There are times when an early gestational elective abortion is understandable. I have had to personally suggest it to one of my patients for medical reasons. It's monsters like Gosnell with the government acting as accomplice that gives an almost understandable reason for the pro life movement to become violently radical.

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Old 01-20-2011, 07:23 PM   #67
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Very sad.
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:16 PM   #68
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I bet that's what we were all thinking from the beginning of this thread, I know I was. Future welfare babies that nobody wanted and would be a drain on society all their lives first welfare than crime ending in prison.

Did you guys have this thought?
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...1&postcount=38
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:43 PM   #69
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We come to the same conclusions a lot. Except when we don't.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:21 AM   #70
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Don't shoot the messenger, but you have to admit that this is a good and interesting point:


Gosnell is precisely the kind of butcher the pro-choice movement opposes. No one endorses bad medicine and unrestricted, unregulated, cowboy surgery like Gosnell practiced — what he represents is the kind of back-alley deadly hackery that the anti-choice movement would have as the only possible recourse, if they had their way. If anything, the Gosnell case is an argument for legal abortion.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...=Google+Reader
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:32 AM   #71
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While Gosnell’s clinic was an anomaly, it wasn’t entirely unique; the stigma and secrecy around abortion has long attracted the occasional criminal to the field. In her book Dispatches From the Abortion Wars, the sociologist Carole Joffe wrote about what she called “rogue clinics.” “These clinics—or in some cases individual doctors—typically prey on women in low-income immigrant communities.” She described a case in 2008 in which two sisters, Berta and Raquel Bugarin, were arrested for practicing medicine without a license at a string of clinics in Southern California and sued for causing injury and wrongful death. “That such clinics can flourish until the inevitable disaster occurs strikes me as a ‘perfect storm’ caused by the marginalization of abortion care from mainstream medicine, the lack of universal health care in the United States, and the particular difficulties facing undocumented immigrants in obtaining health care in the United States,” she wrote.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...afe-abortions/
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:34 AM   #72
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Quote:
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Don't shoot the messenger, but you have to admit that this is a good and interesting point:


Gosnell is precisely the kind of butcher the pro-choice movement opposes. No one endorses bad medicine and unrestricted, unregulated, cowboy surgery like Gosnell practiced — what he represents is the kind of back-alley deadly hackery that the anti-choice movement would have as the only possible recourse, if they had their way. If anything, the Gosnell case is an argument for legal abortion.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...=Google+Reader
Not a good point.

This case does one thing: it illustrates the depravity and horror of partial birth abortion.

Partial birth abortion is legal because radical factions of the left whose values do not coincide with those of the larger american body populace want it to be so.

They use arbitrary, meaningless designations to deprive the person in utero of their rights as a living human being so that they can kill poor peoples' children. Its the most disgusting practice ever conceived by American minds. Abortion was literally created here to kill black children by using the same eugenics philosophy that the Nazis used to kill the Jews. http://blackgenocide.org/negro.html

Margaret Sanger on helping the poor:
"Organized charity itself is the symptom of a malignant social disease. Those vast, complex, interrelated organizations aiming to control and to diminish the spread of misery and destitution and all the menacing evils that spring out of this sinisterly fertile soil, are the surest sign that our civilization has bred, is breeding and perpetuating constantly increasing numbers of defectives, delinquents and dependents."


But hey, that racist elitist Margaret Sanger is a feminist hero, right?

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Old 01-25-2011, 10:45 AM   #73
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This case does one thing: it illustrates the depravity and horror of partial birth abortion.
I agree with your point above. But I think you're missing the point made in what I posted, which is surprising since I highlighted it for you. Many people are using this case as evidence that abortion should be illegal. The facts are that if abortion was made illegal there would be more cases like this, not less. It's common sense, but of course common sense is not common. The solution isn't to make abortion illegal. The solution is to avoid unwanted pregnancies. This is probably best accomplished by way of education and birth control, but of course there are interests on the right that don't want either of these things for various reasons. So these same interests are actually making the problem worse.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:47 AM   #74
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Don't shoot the messenger, but you have to admit that this is a good and interesting point:


Gosnell is precisely the kind of butcher the pro-choice movement opposes. No one endorses bad medicine and unrestricted, unregulated, cowboy surgery like Gosnell practiced — what he represents is the kind of back-alley deadly hackery that the anti-choice movement would have as the only possible recourse, if they had their way. If anything, the Gosnell case is an argument for legal abortion.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...=Google+Reader

Late term abortions are against the law for good reason. But these weren't just late term abortions. These were near full term labor inducements combined with post delivery murder of viable human beings. The Pennsylvania Department of Health knew exactly what was going on there, and willfully chose to ignore it. At least, that's what the grand jury report states. That is as good as endorsing it IMO. There are plenty of places that provide competent medical care for abortions in the first 20 weeks. Are you saying that this maniac is an argument for pro-choice absolutism?
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:49 AM   #75
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Late term abortions are against the law for good reason.
Agree. Not my point. I tried to clarify above. It's really a very simple point. Let's not over complicate this.
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