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Old 06-01-2009, 02:29 PM   #226
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What if they prove the first bullet killed him? Then what?
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:35 PM   #227
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What if they prove the first bullet killed him? Then what?
Then he would be judged on the fact that his intent was to execute the kid.
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:41 PM   #228
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What if they prove the first bullet killed him? Then what?
They won't even try. The pharmacist has already claimed he was moving. The ME's autopsy shows he was alive. It will take a court order to exhume the body.

Any more ideas?
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:03 PM   #229
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To tie down one specific reason for the fall of any given civilization is impossible to argue as there's a conglomeration of events that a all contributors. In addition, I'm not about to write a freaking essay to to prove the point because that's just silly. That's why I said it's mainly due to the civilization becoming weak. Example: The Roman Empire....which by the way is the basis of our society.

Another example of this would be Mexico. Weak criminal justice system, corruption, poor leadership = failure.

____

Mexican civil society has begun to question the generosity of their country’s legal system. Mexico has no death penalty, and the maximum prison term -- seldom imposed -- is 60 years. Additionally, it has refused to extradite individuals facing “cruel and unusual” punishment.

But the wave of violence that has washed over Mexico this year is fast transforming the landscape of Mexican society as Mexicans’ views on “punishment” are hardening. This shift is not so much because of the violence itself – approximately 92 percent of the 5,400 people killed in Mexico this year were involved in the drug trade – but because innocent civilians are getting caught in the crossfire between the Mexican police and the cartels.

To understand the subtle shifts in attitude, consider how Mexico’s views of crime and punishment evolved. Based on the Napoleonic Code introduced in the 19th century – when Napoleon invaded Mexico and installed Maximilian as Emperor – Mexico, like most European countries, does not have jury trials and, although there is no presumption of innocence, only “probable” doubt has to be established.

Mexico’s legal system reflects Catholic sensibilities: the idea that no one is beyond redemption, that everyone is entitled to forgiveness, and that only God can end a person’s life. As a consequence, Mexico has reluctantly extradited people accused of crimes in other countries. Sentences of more than 25 years in prison are seldom imposed, and there is no capital punishment.

American officials have long complained of Mexico’s naïveté, arguing that under Mexican law, terrorists can walk free a quarter century after their crimes. Mexican officials, meanwhile, have argued that with time, people grow and change, and can redeem themselves.

But now that violence – gruesome slayings where mutilated or decapitated bodies are dumped in public view – is affecting ordinary society, Mexico is seeing a public backlash.

http://news.newamericamedia.org/news...7931772e1ccbe9
All of a sudden all the other more concrete reasons for the fall of civilizations disappear and they are replaced by the conveniently vague weak. Of course we can attribute failure as being weakness so you have a nice circular argument.

Oh, and very few things in our society is based on Rome. The main influences are pre-roman Greek city-state and anglican.

This has to be the first and only time I will ever see the Roman empire compared to modern day Mexico. Speak about your elephants and non-elephants, you will have to do better than that sparky.
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:59 PM   #230
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What if they prove the first bullet killed him? Then what?
Medical examiners report has already stated that the first bullet did not kill him.
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Old 06-01-2009, 04:06 PM   #231
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Question is ( was the kid a threat after the first bullet) to me it appears that he wasn't so iam going to say the extra 5 rounds were not needed and sadly the punk choose the wrong guy to rob.
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Old 06-01-2009, 11:27 PM   #232
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Reminds of when one of my kids was missing. Then we found him just messing around with one of his buddies you just want to hug them to death, and then you want to kill them as your adrenaline is still pumping and you hate that you had to go through that emotion. This seems similiar. Although it is hard to condone the extra shots, he was probably pissed beyond belief for being put in that position to begin with. If I were on a jury I don't know that I could judge the guys emotions at that time. Temporary insanity sounds plausible to me.
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Old 06-01-2009, 11:39 PM   #233
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The first shot was self defense.

The five after were murderous. Lock him up.
Murderous? I can see manslaughter, but not first degree murder.

That guy was minding his own business, his life was threatened and he was provoked into this rampage.

None of us can truthfully say what we would have done unless we were in his shoes to experience it ourselves. It's easy to vilify the guy sitting behind a computer.

His life was threatened, of course he wasn't going to be of sound mind! His animal instincts could have set in and turned him into a monster for 30-40 seconds.

The guy should be punished, but he shouldn't be charged with first degree.
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:11 AM   #234
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None of us can truthfully say what we would have done unless we were in his shoes to experience it ourselves. It's easy to vilify the guy sitting behind a computer.

Exactly. Everyone would react differently. Some people, even knowing they have a gun to protect themself, would just clam up and do whatever the robbers say then possibly get killed. Other might be so shocked and scared that they can't get the gun out and shoot it, then in turn they get shot and killed.

I'm sorry, but as soon as you are being robbed, your life is in danger regardless if they have a weapon. What, are you gonna ask them to show theres first so you can show yours? Please.

Murder?? No. But we will find out what he gets.
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Old 06-02-2009, 05:36 AM   #235
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I wonder how many of the "he's clearly guilty of murder" people here would even consider convicting this cashier of anything if the situation were a little different. Say, you walked in on this guy molesting your 6 or 7 year old daughter. You shot him in the head, and he was no longer a threat to you or the child, but you still decided to empty the clip in him after waiting 45 seconds.

If you were on that jury, would you convict the man of anything? If you are being consistent, you have to ignore the original crime which resulted in the shooting. All you are doing is evaluating the shooter's behavior after the first shot without context.
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Old 06-02-2009, 05:57 AM   #236
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If you come into a store with violence and rage on your mind willing to use force to rob or kill someone you get what you deserve. I'd give the guy a certificate of appreciation and a key to the city. Terrorists and viloent criminals have zero rights IMO...if thats what you are we are at war with you and any measure to stop you will be seen as a good thing.
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:21 AM   #237
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I have changed my mind---Here is a video clip with more information about the Pharmacist--turns out he is basically a cripple, incapable of wrestling with any of the would-be robbers--and if the 16 year old was in fact moving--he had every right to make sure that this robber would not be a threat to him or the two females who were working under him that day. He had no way of checking to see if the criminal was wounded to the point where he was certain to stay down or where the criminal had been shot b/c of the simple fact that this criminal posed a DANGER and because of that fact--he did the right thing in making sure that this criminal was no longer a threat. In fact I am going to donate to his defense fund.........

Jerome Ersland defense fund
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http://www.okcfox.com/newsroom/top_s...vid_2502.shtml
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:29 AM   #238
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I have changed my mind---Here is a video clip with more information about the Pharmacist--turns out he is basically a cripple, incapable of wrestling with any of the would-be robbers--and if the 16 year old was in fact moving--he had every right to make sure that this robber would not be a threat to him or the two females who were working under him that day. He had no way of checking to see if the criminal was wounded to the point where he was certain to stay down or where the criminal had been shot b/c of the simple fact that this criminal posed a DANGER and because of that fact--he did the right thing in making sure that this criminal was no longer a threat. In fact I am going to donate to his defense fund.........

Jerome Ersland defense fund
Account# 10062837
The First National Bank and Trust Company
PO BOX 1130 Chickashaw Ok 73023


http://www.okcfox.com/newsroom/top_s...vid_2502.shtml
"My response to them (people wanting the case dropped) is, you don't have all the evidence, I do."--District Attorney David Prater
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:36 AM   #239
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"My response to them (people wanting the case dropped) is, you don't have all the evidence, I do."--District Attorney David Prater
David Prater is an elected official who feels as though he is doing the right thing--The Pharmacist also felt as though he was doing the right thing by eliminating a threat to his person as well as two other females--Prater gets to pass judgement on the Pharmacist's actions by bringing charges and a jury will get to pass judgement on Prater's indictment...........
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:40 AM   #240
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David Prater is an elected official who feels as though he is doing the right thing--The Pharmacist also felt as though he was doing the right thing by eliminating a threat to his person as well as two other females--Prater gets to pass judgement on the Pharmacist's actions by bringing charges and a jury will get to pass judgement on Prater's indictment...........
None of which changes the truth of his statement.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:47 AM   #241
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I wonder how many of the "he's clearly guilty of murder" people here would even consider convicting this cashier of anything if the situation were a little different. Say, you walked in on this guy molesting your 6 or 7 year old daughter. You shot him in the head, and he was no longer a threat to you or the child, but you still decided to empty the clip in him after waiting 45 seconds.

If you were on that jury, would you convict the man of anything? If you are being consistent, you have to ignore the original crime which resulted in the shooting. All you are doing is evaluating the shooter's behavior after the first shot without context.

The context is that the kid was unarmed, unconscious, and no longer a threat.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:48 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by broncofan7 View Post
I have changed my mind---Here is a video clip with more information about the Pharmacist--turns out he is basically a cripple, incapable of wrestling with any of the would-be robbers--and if the 16 year old was in fact moving--he had every right to make sure that this robber would not be a threat to him or the two females who were working under him that day. He had no way of checking to see if the criminal was wounded to the point where he was certain to stay down or where the criminal had been shot b/c of the simple fact that this criminal posed a DANGER and because of that fact--he did the right thing in making sure that this criminal was no longer a threat. In fact I am going to donate to his defense fund.........

Jerome Ersland defense fund
Account# 10062837
The First National Bank and Trust Company
PO BOX 1130 Chickashaw Ok 73023


http://www.okcfox.com/newsroom/top_s...vid_2502.shtml
If that was his intent he could have just knee-capped him.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:50 AM   #243
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None of which changes the truth of his statement.
Prater's 'truth' has yet to be defined as such by a group of the Pharmacist's peers.......Prater has made a judgement call based upon the information that he has and the OK law---he can take his interpretations of those 'truths' and gently fit them into the charges against the Pharmacist and he did just that.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:50 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco View Post
I wonder how many of the "he's clearly guilty of murder" people here would even consider convicting this cashier of anything if the situation were a little different. Say, you walked in on this guy molesting your 6 or 7 year old daughter. You shot him in the head, and he was no longer a threat to you or the child, but you still decided to empty the clip in him after waiting 45 seconds.

If you were on that jury, would you convict the man of anything? If you are being consistent, you have to ignore the original crime which resulted in the shooting. All you are doing is evaluating the shooter's behavior after the first shot without context.
you cant change the scenario and expect an honest answer ,And Child molesting is a much different crime that raises different emotions and line of thinking then an armed Robbery ...........
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:52 AM   #245
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Prater's 'truth' has yet to be defined as such by a group of the Pharmacist's peers.......Prater has made a judgement call based upon the information that he has and the OK law---he can take his interpretations of those 'truths' and gently fit them into the charges against the Pharmacist and he did just that.
That pharmacist and his attorney will have a tough time explaining away that video. If he shot him one more time, maybe. Five times? I doubt it. Then, there will be the autopsy report.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:55 AM   #246
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If that was his intent he could have just knee-capped him.
And that would be to assume he was a skilled marksman--he was faced with a threat, the threat continued to move after he had emptied his initial weapon (that apparently was not fully loaded)--he had no idea if that threat has been injured to the point where the threat no longer posed a risk ---for example, what if the person on the ground HAD on his person a weapon and had enough strength to grab that weapon and shoot from the ground @ the RPh?) The RPh knew that these criminals were brazen enough to brandish the weapons upon entry into the store, how was he to know that the guy laying on the ground didn't have one? All it takes is one mistake, ONE FALSE assumption and the RPH would be dead INSTEAD of the CRIMINAL INSTIGATOR.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:59 AM   #247
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That pharmacist and his attorney will have a tough time explaining away that video. If he shot him one more time, maybe. Five times? I doubt it. Then, there will be the autopsy report.
At my first glance, I thought the same thing--then after learning that this guy was in no shape to get into any type of hand-to-hand altercation coupled with the fact that these criminals entered the Pharmacy brandishing weapons in addition to the fact that the guy on the ground was still moving--I could see how the RPh would be compelled to eliminate ALL risk to himself and the two females in his store--how was he to know that the guy on the ground had no gun on him and that he was not capable of reaching for that gun and shooting @ the RPH?
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:04 PM   #248
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At my first glance, I thought the same thing--then after learning that this guy was in no shape to get into any type of hand-to-hand altercation coupled with the fact that these criminals entered the Pharmacy brandishing weapons in addition to the fact that the guy on the ground was still moving--I could see how the RPh would be compelled to eliminate ALL risk to himself and the two females in his store--how was he to know that the guy on the ground had no gun on him and that he was not capable of reaching for that gun and shooting @ the RPH?
Watch the video again. He walks right past the kid without even looking at him - twice. Then, he gets a new gun, calmly walks over and executes him. If he was still worried about the kid, he could have taken the two other employees, walked out the back door, and left the premises until the police arrived.
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:06 PM   #249
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Prater's 'truth' has yet to be defined as such by a group of the Pharmacist's peers.......Prater has made a judgement call based upon the information that he has and the OK law---he can take his interpretations of those 'truths' and gently fit them into the charges against the Pharmacist and he did just that.
None of which changes the truth of his statement.
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:30 PM   #250
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Watch the video again. He walks right past the kid without even looking at him - twice. Then, he gets a new gun, calmly walks over and executes him. If he was still worried about the kid, he could have taken the two other employees, walked out the back door, and left the premises until the police arrived.
Why would you walk outside with 2 females not knowing how many of the criminals were outside or where they were? You could very well be walking right into more problems.The 3 of them were safer inside the store as they could lock the door which creates a slight barrier to any re-intrusions. --given that he elminated the risk of the criminal on the floor.
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